Gyldervane said:Of course, presets should definitely only be loadable out of combat.
Why? Also, why should spells only be changeable out of combat? I'm using EQ1 as reference here, and I simply fail to see the "problem".
Think of an extreme. You have set up your spells in a certain way. You move into the boss lair, the door locks behind you. And then you realize that the boss is using an ability that you could counter, but you don't have the spell memorized. But instead of being able to adjust to the situation, you have to die now...pointlessly. Quick reaction and tactical thinking should be rewarded IMO.
I REALLY hope that this point will be under heavy observation during testing, and that spells (and spell sets) will become changeable during combat. If there's a penalty for being in combat (like, it takes twice as long to memorize a spell), that's fine though.
Sarim said:Gyldervane said:Of course, presets should definitely only be loadable out of combat.
Why? Also, why should spells only be changeable out of combat? I'm using EQ1 as reference here, and I simply fail to see the "problem".
Think of an extreme. You have set up your spells in a certain way. You move into the boss lair, the door locks behind you. And then you realize that the boss is using an ability that you could counter, but you don't have the spell memorized. But instead of being able to adjust to the situation, you have to die now...pointlessly. Quick reaction and tactical thinking should be rewarded IMO.
I REALLY hope that this point will be under heavy observation during testing, and that spells (and spell sets) will become changeable during combat. If there's a penalty for being in combat (like, it takes twice as long to memorize a spell), that's fine though.
The idea behind it is that you only have access to some of your spells and your loadout matters. Not all of your abilities all of the time. This way there is give and take in what abilities you bring to the table and your spell selection matters. It's not balls to the wall all out healing/dps/cc.
Sarim said:I REALLY hope that this point will be under heavy observation during testing, and that spells (and spell sets) will become changeable during combat. If there's a penalty for being in combat (like, it takes twice as long to memorize a spell), that's fine though.
The other issue... is that it can create unintended consequences. For example in order to compete dps wise as a necromancer in some of the later expansions you had to unmem and mem spells between your casts in order to put as many dots as possible on the mobs. I dont think anyone wants to deal with something like this lol. It was not fun.
Porygon said:Tralyan said:This might have been answered in previous posts, but how does the game determine whether you're "out of combat"?
What I mean is, could you just turn autoattack off and that be enough to load a new set? Do you have to be outside a certain range of an engaged mob to be considered out of combat? Does a certain time need to pass between your last attack and when you can load a new set/memorize new spells? In EQ, for example, you could root a mob, back up, sit down and memorize a new spell. I'm assuming this wouldn't be the case here. Is there a time-bar that pops up when you're loading a new set?
Basically, if the point is to make sure you're prepared for each scenario, how is it done in such a way that it can't be exploited?
In other games. You either kill the mob, or zone.
No real way to game this.
Yeah, in the way I was using it, "out of combat" just means that no mob is currently aggroing you or your party. I think the devs have said that they don't want abilities to be memorized in combat, so I don't think they'd allow the "root a mob and memorize a new spell" scenario.
Sarim said:Gyldervane said:Of course, presets should definitely only be loadable out of combat.
Why? Also, why should spells only be changeable out of combat? I'm using EQ1 as reference here, and I simply fail to see the "problem".
Think of an extreme. You have set up your spells in a certain way. You move into the boss lair, the door locks behind you. And then you realize that the boss is using an ability that you could counter, but you don't have the spell memorized. But instead of being able to adjust to the situation, you have to die now...pointlessly. Quick reaction and tactical thinking should be rewarded IMO.
I REALLY hope that this point will be under heavy observation during testing, and that spells (and spell sets) will become changeable during combat. If there's a penalty for being in combat (like, it takes twice as long to memorize a spell), that's fine though.
I agree with this. Stop designing rules, instead design consequences. Some where already mentioned in this thread.
Free after: You can do it, but you have to pay the price. Best mechanism ever.
Gyldervane said:Porygon said:Tralyan said:This might have been answered in previous posts, but how does the game determine whether you're "out of combat"?
What I mean is, could you just turn autoattack off and that be enough to load a new set? Do you have to be outside a certain range of an engaged mob to be considered out of combat? Does a certain time need to pass between your last attack and when you can load a new set/memorize new spells? In EQ, for example, you could root a mob, back up, sit down and memorize a new spell. I'm assuming this wouldn't be the case here. Is there a time-bar that pops up when you're loading a new set?
Basically, if the point is to make sure you're prepared for each scenario, how is it done in such a way that it can't be exploited?
In other games. You either kill the mob, or zone.
No real way to game this.
Yeah, in the way I was using it, "out of combat" just means that no mob is currently aggroing you or your party. I think the devs have said that they don't want abilities to be memorized in combat, so I don't think they'd allow the "root a mob and memorize a new spell" scenario.
I wish we could get a dev answer on this. The only two ways I could see it working as intended is
1. You can't mem or re-mem spells if you're on the hate list of any mob.
2. You can't mem or re-mem spells if you're in a group, and ANY member within the same zone is on the hate list of any mob.
Otherwise, it just seems to easily bypassed. It seems like an annoyance that can be worked around and not a feature of the game. If all I have to do is have a group mate kite a mob for a while so I can re-mem a new set of spells, that defeats the purpose. If all I have to do is root park a mob and back up in order to re-mem spells, that defeats the purpose. If we pull 3 mobs, I'm on the hate list of one, and only have to wait for group mates to kill that one so I can re-mem a new set for the other two, that defeats the purpose.
Hopefully Porygon is right. You either kill or zone. I haven't played a caster in an MMO where this mechanic was present - in fact I hardly play casters at all - so it's more just a curiosity than anything else.
johisaac said:Sarim said:Gyldervane said:Of course, presets should definitely only be loadable out of combat.
Why? Also, why should spells only be changeable out of combat? I'm using EQ1 as reference here, and I simply fail to see the "problem".
Think of an extreme. You have set up your spells in a certain way. You move into the boss lair, the door locks behind you. And then you realize that the boss is using an ability that you could counter, but you don't have the spell memorized. But instead of being able to adjust to the situation, you have to die now...pointlessly. Quick reaction and tactical thinking should be rewarded IMO.
I REALLY hope that this point will be under heavy observation during testing, and that spells (and spell sets) will become changeable during combat. If there's a penalty for being in combat (like, it takes twice as long to memorize a spell), that's fine though.
I agree with this. Stop designing rules, instead design consequences. Some where already mentioned in this thread.
Free after: You can do it, but you have to pay the price. Best mechanism ever.
Also this.
johisaac said:I agree with this. Stop designing rules, instead design consequences. Some where already mentioned in this thread.
Free after: You can do it, but you have to pay the price. Best mechanism ever.
Not sure what that would look like, I imagine it would favor DPS classes while tanks/healers would have little to no room to make changes.
But really that is just designing different rules but rules nonetheless. Instead of the rule being no swaps in combat you want the rule to be swaps in combat with x penalties/consequences. No rules would just be WoW/most other MMOs where all abilities are available all the time.
Personally I agree with the limited action set and the importance of planning based on learning/knowledge, I like the idea that sometimes you might wander into new encounters and find yourselves fighting with your back against the wall or otherwise underprepared.
Aradune said:...I can reveal what we are generally trying to accomplish and the vision and thinking behind it, but it's too early to set number of slots or anything else in stone, specifics and the like.
Fundamentally, what we're shooting for here is needing to plan for that next encounter, especially significant encounters (boss mobs and the like). There should be a noticeable reward for prepping for an encounter properly vs. just running into combat without any forethought or tactics.
There ideally shouldn't be a set of abilities that is always optimal. It should change depending on where you are and what you are going up against.
We don't want it to be so key that you are messing with your character's configuration all of the time (needlessly tedious). Also any type of reconfiguration of your character, or anything really that you may end up doing relatively frequently needs to be supported by an intuitive and easy to use UI and interface. But on the opposite extreme we do want people to learn about encounters, figure out tactics, etc. again the more so the more significant the mob. As you learn a dungeon and master its significant or special encounters a big part of that process should be learning what kind of defensive and offensive capabilities these mobs have. Also, their disposition and behaviors. Running in blind or with minimal planning should put you at a disadvantage vs. the party that *did* plan.
Of course, this extends beyond spells that you mem. Situational gear should play a part as well. Relics and artifacts should play an important role in the big fights. Your group composition and how you work with others and not just individually should matter too. The buffs you apply to yourself and party should matter. Group positioning (both initial positioning and then re-positioning either based on a plan or in reaction to something the mob did or is about to do), depending on class, DPS, ability to tank or off-tank, etc. should be very important. What we're trying to implement and reward are real tactics that give you an advantage over the party who just rushes in blindly with little to no thoughtful preparation. In MMOs your characters abilities, items, etc. generally matter a lot. Then comes buffs. Then eventually actual tactics.
I personally don't see one necessarily always being more important than the other. Certainly, the items you are using, how you are buffed, etc. should matter a *lot*. Pantheon will always be an item-centric and 'ability important' game. But that by no means is a scenario where, at any given level, there's one optimal configuration and as long as you adhere to it, you'll be in good shape. Items, stats, buffs, etc. will always be extremely important. Having that optimal configuration vary depending on who you are, where you are, who you are with, etc. is very important to us -- no 'one size fits all'.
But then there's actually how you play the game once you start the encounter battle. The last thing we want is just button mashing... auto-attack and rescue if you're a tank. Hold back and then mana dump a bunch of damage spells at the right time if you're a caster.... All of this is fine to a degree, but I think it's devolved over time and the optimal use of tactics once in the battle seems to have had less and less importance over the years. It's hard to see all of this in a text description of it, or by watching a twitch stream, but a lot of it is there already, at least the genesis of it. Ideally as these systems mature and as we get more people into the game, we'll figure out clear and obvious ways to communicate that to the viewer. Especially the younger gamer who many not have ever experienced this style of MMO combat done right. Somehow we need to convey this visually -- we need to make it apparent in a video or stream that our combat is not brainless button mashing -- unfortunately, unless your combat system is all action-oriented (say, for example, Destiny) people who've never experienced such a system watch the video and conclude (wrongly) that the combat is simplistic or brainless. Quite the opposite is true, of course. In fact I'd say that both the preparation and execution of combat, both doing what you were planning as well as responding to your allies *and* your enemies decisions creates a situation that is much more complex and involved than what we've often seen as of late. Our intent is to take the 'tab targeting' combat system rarely seen anymore and to turn it up to 11, so to speak. You need to be paying attention. You need to have counterspells and defensive reactions and you need to use them at the optimal times. As mentioned, you need to correctly prep for the next encounter and then execute upon your plan during that encounter. What we're assembling here is about as far away from, and as different and distinct from, the excessively frequent and mindless button mashing and triple jumping all over the map in an MMO as you can get.
I'd also like to see Mana and other resource management mean more in Pantheon than what we've experienced in recent times. I remember in MUDs and MMOs I used to play that this resource management was very important. Some systems made you take up a slot with the spell/ability you were memming. Sometimes you'd mem both your best healing spell (just as an example) but you'd also fill up a slot with a lesser powerful healing spell as well. Why? Because often times it wasn't simply true that using your latest and greatest spell was always the best strategy. Sometimes it was more mana efficient to use your lesser heals and you'd hold back and only use your latest and greatest when the situation truly called for it...
This is one topic where I dont understand why they are changing it from how EQ1 handled it. You could change what spells were memorized any time you wanted. It took time and if anything hit you while you were doing it the process was stoped and had to be started again. Plus once you "un-memmed" a spell to open a slot you now have one less tool at your disposal while trying to mem the new spell.
Maximis said:This is one topic where I dont understand why they are changing it from how EQ1 handled it. You could change what spells were memorized any time you wanted. It took time and if anything hit you while you were doing it the process was stoped and had to be started again. Plus once you "un-memmed" a spell to open a slot you now have one less tool at your disposal while trying to mem the new spell.
Agreed. It took time, and made you vulnerable by sitting, which also drew aggro. There was an opportunity cost and risk, to varying degrees.
I liked loadable spell sets
I also had my spell book organized by spell type and level with empty pages inbetween to shimmy down the old spells (click-pop,click-pop,click-pop.....) to place the last used spell on top so I could put the new spell on one of the "front" pages.
That way with my own level I could swap in an out the most curent spells (like magic over fire for fire resistant monsters), and allow me to flip-flip-flip through my book to "the" page so I could cast lower level fire shields on those lower levels that asked.
As a mage I had a spell set called "supplies" so if anyone asked say for a lev ring or arrows, all my supply rrelated spells would get memmed. heh
I mean. C'mon guys lol. Switching spells in combat took 1.5 seconds. You could literally switch during the time your global spell cooldown was refreshing.
As far as aggro was concerned. Sit aggro was almost never an issue unless something crazy was going on.
I think the effect VR is trying to create is that you should be prepared (to the best of your knowledge) beforehand. If you are fighting ice giants. Sure you might have all your fire spells loaded. But would it hurt to have a lightning spell available in the case of an invunerability. Figuring out what 12 spells to load before combat (both for the known battles. And the unknown) is supposed to be part of the challenge of the game.
Porygon said:I mean. C'mon guys lol. Switching spells in combat took 1.5 seconds. You could literally switch during the time your global spell cooldown was refreshing.
As far as aggro was concerned. Sit aggro was almost never an issue unless something crazy was going on.
I think the effect VR is trying to create is that you should be prepared (to the best of your knowledge) beforehand. If you are fighting ice giants. Sure you might have all your fire spells loaded. But would it hurt to have a lightning spell available in the case of an invunerability. Figuring out what 12 spells to load before combat (both for the known battles. And the unknown) is supposed to be part of the challenge of the game.
As Kreed99 mentions below. You still will have to wait to be out of combat to switch to these presets. The idea of spell presets or spell sets is mainly a savings on tedium. Its so that you can have more time to play the game. They definitely won't break the game. At least the mindless part of switching spells. I never liked rummaging through my spellbook to find a gate spell to teleport my group only to switch it back and have them change their minds. GRRRRRRR!!!!
Beside, you can still get surprised by mobs and be thrown into combat before having a chance to change them. That won't change. It just does away with....... this
kreed99 said: Thats the main point isnt it? You can have out of combat loadable spell sets, but once the team is aggroed you are locked in. I think this QOL improvement might see itself ingame as it wont destroy the main tenant of not changing things while in combat. It just makes premade decisions easier to execute.
Exactly! :D
Hot swapping abilitys / spells or pre-sets might not make it into the release becouse they are QoL, but I see it being added at somepoint when there's time.
As far as being locked out of changing abilities when you get aggro sounds aweful. Imaging being the healer with all your buffs up as you're refreashing everyone, and a pop spawns or someone pulls to early. If you can't load back up your heals, the group is screwed or you/everyone is training the zone because of this. Alternativly the healer would ALWAYS have 3-4 heals memmed only being able to swaps the other couple spell slots, reducing the usable size of their spell bar.
It removes your ability to adapt and learn encounters. For instance, a wizard has fire spells memmed becouse you're fighting humanoids; than a fire elemental comes in and resists all their spells, making them useless until combat is over. If this extends to gear aswell than it has the same effect on melee classes, considering it was said that different weapon types may be more effective against different monsters.
It creates situatiuons where players have to have a base loadout that is decent against a wide range of encounters (which is against what was said by devs about not having a one load-out works best) when you are discovering new content. Until you know the strengths and weaknesses in the dungeon every room you will have to prep for. Granted most areas will have the same drone mob everywhere so it won't be to much effort and once you read the information posted on the wiki, you'll already be aware of what small 1 or 2 changes you'll need. Kinda defeating the point.
I can see something like a challenge dungeon that locks everything for the entire dungeon (like a greater rift in D3) being fairly fun. If the mobs are the same or similar types, you can prepare for it with the right buffs and gear/spells before going in knowing what you're facing. IE a crypt.
Unless of course there's different combat and non-combat bars like BamBam just mentioned above. Or you can't change spcific abilitiy "types" during combat.
SilkyWhip said:As far as being locked out of changing abilities when you get aggro sounds aweful. Imaging being the healer with all your buffs up as you're refreashing everyone, and a pop spawns or someone pulls to early. If you can't load back up your heals, the group is screwed or you/everyone is training the zone because of this. Alternativly the healer would ALWAYS have 3-4 heals memmed only being able to swaps the other couple spell slots, reducing the usable size of their spell bar.
It removes your ability to adapt and learn encounters. For instance, a wizard has fire spells memmed becouse you're fighting humanoids; than a fire elemental comes in and resists all their spells, making them useless until combat is over. If this extends to gear aswell than it has the same effect on melee classes, considering it was said that different weapon types may be more effective against different monsters.
It creates situatiuons where players have to have a base loadout that is decent against a wide range of encounters (which is against what was said by devs about not having a one load-out works best) when you are discovering new content. Until you know the strengths and weaknesses in the dungeon every room you will have to prep for. Granted most areas will have the same drone mob everywhere so it won't be to much effort and once you read the information posted on the wiki, you'll already be aware of what small 1 or 2 changes you'll need. Kinda defeating the point
If you ever remove all your healing spells as a healer, you're doing something wrong. Assuming you have 12 slots, I doubt you'll have 12 buffs you need to cast. Same goes with your wizard example which I literally addressed earlier. Instead of having 5 fire spells up. Put 4 fire and 1 lightning or whatever.
When you go into a new dungeon you're always going to have a base layout, until you figure out what works best. This isn't an issue. You just adapt after 1 fight. There are very few situations where because 1dps cannot do damage the entire group would wipe. I really think you guys are over thinking this.
When i played shammy i never did a full swap just because i knew how pullers were. I would do it 1 spell at a time unless we were full buffing for a raid and i needed them all up at once. So i've been used to just swapping 1 spell at a time. So if they do not add this feature i wont be too hurt by it.
Yeah, loadable spell sets will probably make it in given they have mentioned they want to avoid making things that need to be done often tedious and from the quote above by Brad:
"We don't want it to be so key that you are messing with your character's configuration all of the time (needlessly tedious). Also any type of reconfiguration of your character, or anything really that you may end up doing relatively frequently needs to be supported by an intuitive and easy to use UI and interface."
Swapping weapons (not armor I hope) in combat might be a thing, I imagine if it proves an unfair/problematic issue in testing to only have a single equipped set that having an 2nd set for quick swap (even if it has a small "cast" time) will be added.
Otherwise I really don't think you will be needing to change abilities in combat, if you prepared wrong then you learn and adjust next time. If everything is at your fingertips at any time then you dramatically limit the tense instances where a group has to overcome the odds with their backs against the wall, and players *should* find themselves fighting from the low ground sometimes.
kreed99 said:When i played shammy i never did a full swap just because i knew how pullers were. I would do it 1 spell at a time unless we were full buffing for a raid and i needed them all up at once. So i've been used to just swapping 1 spell at a time. So if they do not add this feature i wont be too hurt by it.
When I 6 boxed is exactly how I handled my shaman buffs.
I would really like to see the ability to cast from the codex even if it takes longer to total avoid the hotbar issue for incidental ability use.
If it's a longer cast no one would do it habitually but if you *did* have to do it in combat it would have an equivalent 'cost' to hotbar fiddling and re-memming without the actually annoyance of hotbar fiddling and re-memming.
And of course it makes it loads more convenient for buffing noobs or translocating a friend or summoning food or whatever that you don't do often.