HemlockReaper said:This topic reminds me of This Guy making the same arguments.
Yup, his arguments are similar to mine, although I don’t agree with not displaying any information about the current hp, it’s reasonable to know if your target or your character are injured, but I agree that the exact value should stay hidden.
Enitzu said:Well after reading the OP I really have to say, If you think Sco's ui is a good thing then we are far and away on different pages. His UI is freaking horrendus. You can get all the same info with much better things. Elv UI would have been a much better example. With weakauras for key things you want to watch.
Nameplates should only show when something is missing health and allow us to filter friendly/unfriendly please. Also what I would love as a tank is something similar to threat plates where it shows your threat on mobs preferably by color. This is of course as someone who usually ends up playing a tank but it helps a lot for dps as well.
Simplistic, minimalist UI's generally are the most popular. Not many people like having all that clutter.
I never said sco’s UI was a good or pretty one, I said it was effective, which it is, it compiles all the useful information in one spot, the center of your screen, so you can stay more aware of what’s going on around your character. And I would like to avoid a situation where having Weakauras or other important combat information in the center of your screen is possible, because it detracts from the game original feel and it’s an advantage, so it will become standard practice.
I just can’t agree with having multiple floating health bars, it’s such a huge advantage to have them active, that it goes from being an option to an instant requirement.
I don’t think something like threat plates will be in the game, because it falls under the aggro meter sort of stuff and Kilsin said that those type of things won’t exist, but maybe he was just referring to a window with all the threat info on the mob, don’t know I’m not sure.
I know a lot of people like having a clean UI, I’m one of them I despise a screen filled with stuff, but many players feel compelled to have similar styles of UI (with loads of clutter) because it gives them an advantage.
HemlockReaper said:This topic reminds me of This Guy making the same arguments.
The guy mentions not showing names increasing how curious he is about other players
that he might talk more to them just for that.
When thinking about it I think he is right.If you have all the information you need,it is not likely you will make contact with someone to gain that information
No minimap -you might need to ask for directions.
No nameplates shown-you need to ask for the name,and that initiative you take makes it known to the other player you are genuinely interested in them. All the clutter distracts and so less love kissies happen :'-(
Not that I am against nameplates, it could be like in elderscrolls online where an npc is known as the prophet until he reveals his name to you later on.Name revealing could be linked to relation status
With no nameplates, how do you handle the inevitable jerks? How do you know who just trained you? How do you talk about that person, and how does that person's bad reputation create issues for him? How do you report people you suspect of botting or exploiting?
*Clarification* The nameplate itself doesnt have to be there, but there was a suggestion about having to talk to someone to learn their name.
Feyshtey said:With no nameplates, how do you handle the inevitable jerks? How do you know who just trained you? How do you talk about that person, and how does that person's bad reputation create issues for him? How do you report people you suspect of botting or exploiting?
*Clarification* The nameplate itself doesnt have to be there, but there was a suggestion about having to talk to someone to learn their name.
To clarify I will change "Nameplates" to "floating health bars" in the original post, because that's what I'm refering too, not the actual name above the mob, didn't think this would cause so much confusion *sigh* my bad ;)
jpedrote said:Feyshtey said:With no nameplates, how do you handle the inevitable jerks? How do you know who just trained you? How do you talk about that person, and how does that person's bad reputation create issues for him? How do you report people you suspect of botting or exploiting?
*Clarification* The nameplate itself doesnt have to be there, but there was a suggestion about having to talk to someone to learn their name.
To clarify I will change "Nameplates" to "floating health bars" in the original post, because that's what I'm refering too, not the actual name above the mob, didn't think this would cause so much confusion *sigh* my bad ;)
Please see my clarification.
Forget about the nameplate. I shouldnt have even said that. It was suggested that you might have to talk to a player to learn his/her name.
one way a player can handle with inevitable jerks would be to add them to the ignore list.
Since interaction would be on a much more personal level ,we would have to use the ignore list for a change
Most of the games have so much clutter and jerks that the ignore list remains empty because
Too much clutter and jerks to start ignore them.We are not immersed enough to care and detached enough as it is
Attending the ignore list would become a fulltime job :-D
A solution has to come from within the game ,with mechanics designed to reward good behavior and cooperation.
Form a system where players are commended for being kind to others and have penalties for bad behavior.
Encouraging positivity,not what MMOrpgs have been doing as you may well know
We need more kissies and less rotten fishies <3
A keybind to report suspect botters and exploiters could work? They have often vanished before you can type their name
Mentors/trainers would be of a high enough relation status,so their name would be visible
The ignore list might need a new design too ,under this immersive environment
Oh how do you talk about the nameless jerk?Good question. If mechanics encourage positivity I believe the nameless jerks turn into forgotten.
Fluffy said:one way a player can handle with inevitable jerks would be to add them to the ignore list.
Since interaction would be on a much more personal level ,we would have to use the ignore list for a change
Most of the games have so much clutter and jerks that the ignore list remains empty because
Too much clutter and jerks to start ignore them.We are not immersed enough to care and detached enough as it is
Attending the ignore list would become a fulltime job :-DA solution has to come from within the game ,with mechanics designed to reward good behavior and cooperation.
Form a system where players are commended for being kind to others and have penalties for bad behavior.
Encouraging positivity,not what MMOrpgs have been doing as you may well know
We need more kissies and less rotten fishies <3
A keybind to report suspect botters and exploiters could work? They have often vanished before you can type their name
Mentors/trainers would be of a high enough relation status,so their name would be visibleThe ignore list might need a new design too ,under this immersive environment
Ignore option should take care of the obnoxious. Personally if they are bad enough to land on my ignore they can stay there../shrug. I pay for my game I don't pay to be a captive audience to the trollishness of some. Should be a /report function to report suspected botters etc. The mechanics that reward good behaviour or don't reward bad behaviour comes from the community itself, jerks, ninjas, guild bank robbers.. don't get invited to groups. Word of mouth would ensure this it happened that way in EQ. The community polices this, for the most part. Don't need to automate everything..I'm sure the Devs have enough on their hands. Plus we'll have GMs and Guides, they can take care of the more extreme behaviours or disruptive events.
Beefcake said:Everyone has their own preferences. Unlike the OP, I hope they have a very robust interface that gives us massive amounts of data. Then, I hope they give us the option to remove any information we don't want.
Let people have the interface that helps THEM play the game, not just one person's preference.
Exactly the ability to add or remove things. Don't want my screen full of information that I don't deem important. I DO like to see peoples' names however. Maybe an option to turn off titles..certain games the titles seem to go on forever, toggle off in personal ui would be a good thing. I like to see group health bars too.
CanadinaXegony said:guild bank robbers.. don't get invited to groups. Word of mouth would ensure this it happened that way in EQ. The community polices this, for the most part. Don't need to automate everything..I'm sure the Devs have enough on their hands. Plus we'll have GMs and Guides, they can take care of the more extreme behaviours or disruptive events.
The mention of guildbank robbers reminds me of one of the first games I played on the gameboy Zelda Link's Awakening. If you stole an item from the shop you were forever known as thief
for the rest of the game ,only way was to load earlier save or restart the game :-D
Over the years games have been automated too much.A system here,a system there.It does not have to be that complicated.
I also think a lot of the MMOrpg systems people became used to go against that sense of community.
Game designed towards cooperation the devs do not need to automate everything.But it is best to question everything we've seen in MMOrpgs
Assessing if it is an added value to the multiplayer experience and what needs to change
To the OP,
Thank you for bringing this up. Untill now, I really haven't given UI elements in gaming much thought. Mostly because I never felt that my opinion mattered about it (see below), and partly because I never considered the many ways in which MMORPGs have devolved. I believe this is one area where MMOs have unfortuneately consigned themselves to visual data intrusion, foreknowledge, and playing not a game, but playing numbers, percentages and statistical information first and foremost.
I don't really care if I never play another game where there is a screen full of obtrussive UI clutter, floating text numbers, warning alarms, timers, omniscient tooltip information, etc. ever again. In serious and honest reflection, those elements have single-handedly destroyed my enjoyment of gaming and it's finally sinking in for me. I realize that from WoW onward, I was playing flashy, blinking, siezure inducing UIs; not immersive worlds where I could primarily engage and consider my feelings, thoughts, and cognitive capabilities in response to the true game environment.
I personally don't want to spend my time sifting through UI pollution in a vain attempt to convince myself that I'm enjoying the gameworld that has been designed for us to participate in.
Although I hope that the UI in Pantheon is flexible enough and allows a majority of it's playerbase many options to do as they see fit. I really would like to see a deliberate focus on player vs. gameworld and a serious intent to steer away from UI priority gameplay.
Amris said:You become very divorced from the action when you're watching bars. If you don't HAVE to watch everything going on around you, it becomes actively inefficient to do it. People get upset because you're "bad at your job" because you've refused a tool that makes you more efficient. The game begins to revolve around the expectation that people will be "effective" and "efficient" and use the top technology of the time... if that's Healbot or something else.
If having a certain thing like Healbot available becomes the most efficient method, it ceases to be a question of "individual play style." You cannot be competitive if you CHOOSE an immersive playstyle of watching the game instead of the UI interface. If you can do the SAME thing with a simple click of a mouse button, then you must do so or you jeopardize everyone. It literally becomes where you are not only less desirable by far, but you are an active detriment.
It can NOT be passed off as individual play style. In time, the game begins to revolve around these efficiencies, it HAS to. If you have guilds powering easily through things because all of their people are using these more EFFICIENT methods, then the devs will be forced to compensate. At that point, "choice" ceases to exist because "well, you can just not be good enough for any groups or raids if you want [and use that other ineffective method]" is not a valid or just option.
Beefcake said:So many of these posts are all about stating, "I don't like something, so no one else should have it, not even as an option, because than I have to use it."
No, you don't. Options are great. You don't like one, don't use it. Don't give in to peer pressure. Stick to your guns. Life will go on.
I say this with gentle respect, but this is not how life works. If you decide not to use tools that make you more efficient, you WILL be ostracized.
We want a game where reputation matters... but then it sort of seems like people are saying, "Let them eat cake." If you don't like it, don't use it is not a valid response because the game has to be built around the most efficient method. If you cannot keep up with people who are using the most efficient method, you get a bad reputation. At that point, it's game over for you.
To simply say not to give in to peer pressure is unfair. We want a game where peer pressure matters. We want a game where you have reputation, and where people expect you to be good at your job. Where pride in hard work means something. We cannot both say, "Don't give in to peer pressure" but then also say, "make reputation matter". If the game is made for the most effective and efficient use of the UI (and it has to be), then people who refuse to use it are killing their own reputation.... Then they have no friends in a game that's all about forging friendships.
I love the idea of allowing flexibility, but I urge caution in the degree of flexibility offered. The devs absolutely must cater to the most efficient method. The game cannot last long if they don't.
Using the most effective and efficient method is not optional in a game based on reputation, friendship, and an expectation of excellence.
@Amris.
I cannot thank you enough for taking the time to express your thoughts and explain them as you have. Of the few things I am cautious about with Pantheon, this is one that has a lot of meaning for me. In truth, as the designers and fans begin to announce and reveal the 'Pantheon Difference' to a larger base of interest, I hope it is without the culling that is a foundation of UI required gameplay.
OakKnower said:@Amris.
I cannot thank you enough for taking the time to express your thoughts and explain them as you have. Of the few things I am cautious about with Pantheon, this is one that has a lot of meaning for me. In truth, as the designers and fans begin to announce and reveal the 'Pantheon Difference' to a larger base of interest, I hope it is without the culling that is a foundation of UI required gameplay.
It's important to speak up. Took me a long time to learn that. I tell my daughter not to lie about liking peas... otherwise you just get more peas. :p
There are strong feelings on both sides of this issue, and in the end, the devs will make the decision. But we cannot be silent about our dislike of peas, or we have no one to blame but ourselves if we get them.
Otherwise, we can be mad at the devs, instead. :p :D
Amris said:OakKnower said:@Amris.
I cannot thank you enough for taking the time to express your thoughts and explain them as you have. Of the few things I am cautious about with Pantheon, this is one that has a lot of meaning for me. In truth, as the designers and fans begin to announce and reveal the 'Pantheon Difference' to a larger base of interest, I hope it is without the culling that is a foundation of UI required gameplay.
It's important to speak up. Took me a long time to learn that. I tell my daughter not to lie about liking peas... otherwise you just get more peas. :p
There are strong feelings on both sides of this issue, and in the end, the devs will make the decision. But we cannot be silent about our dislike of peas, or we have no one to blame but ourselves if we get them.
Otherwise, we can be mad at the devs, instead. :p :D
Agreed.
It's funny in a way, when I finally started to raid (in Vanilla WoW) I had very limited UI and I was not yet 'forced' to have a minimum of 'required' third party UI tools that later became the basic expectation to raid. People in my guild would say in comms, 'How can you possibly do anything without [insert various mod here]?' or 'How are you able to play without.....'.
Eventually, you are correct, the raid content became such that some combination of mods were neccessary to get through some of the content. I just found it to be a bummer to deal with finding an appropriate mod, keep it updated, deal with bugs, etc. etc. ad nauseam. It was a side-job to the job at hand that did not increase or improve my enjoyment level at all. All that time I never said as much becuase 'it is manditaory' or 'you'll be kicked from the raid' or 'you won't get an invite'. So sad really.
Really when talking about UI we should also consider who the UI is for, a tank, healer or dps. In a raid enviorment I could, realistically as a DPS just have an action bad and an indicator telling me who I'm targeting, or not even an action bar if I'm good enough with that. All those things like meters and health and such don't matter in such an enviroment, you hit it, and keep hitting till it dies. A tank would want to have their own health indicator visible, so they can know when they are actually in danger and might need to use some sort of cooldown.
But restricing information needs to be taken to a certain extent, for when you take all that away it will all shift over to meta information. Like the guy at the table of D&D that has read ALL the books and doesn't care about just using that information.
This topic reminds me of This Guy making the same arguments.
On the video posted, this is a horrible argument, or at least the way of presenting it. It is just all yelling and saying "look at this!" with NO real argument for HOW it is more immersive or WHY it is more immersive. The only argument I see in there is that of "realism", which he seemingly has not thought out to it's full extent, "How would I know what they are casting?! I wouldn't!" basing it pretty much on his real world information or something, totally ignoring that the character he is playing is a highly skilled and experience magical caster, they would know something, at least what type of magic. Not seeing your own health? I feel pretty sure that if you are fighting something you would know if it is hurting, how well you are feeling and similar. Let's ignore taking it to the extreme and saying just taking a single sword blow to the face is enought to kill you. It is not that I don't agree to stuff that is presented, it is just that the entire thing is just yelling "this is wrong" and not telling why.
Amris said:OakKnower said:@Amris.
I cannot thank you enough for taking the time to express your thoughts and explain them as you have. Of the few things I am cautious about with Pantheon, this is one that has a lot of meaning for me. In truth, as the designers and fans begin to announce and reveal the 'Pantheon Difference' to a larger base of interest, I hope it is without the culling that is a foundation of UI required gameplay.
It's important to speak up. Took me a long time to learn that. I tell my daughter not to lie about liking peas... otherwise you just get more peas. :p
There are strong feelings on both sides of this issue, and in the end, the devs will make the decision. But we cannot be silent about our dislike of peas, or we have no one to blame but ourselves if we get them.
Otherwise, we can be mad at the devs, instead. :p :D
I know we are talking about UI's here but people need to remember that things like healbot and such won't be a thing here. That is automated gameplay scripting which we already know won't exist. The only things we will have 'addon' wise is basic UI skins like EQ did. So we will be able to change the look, placement of things, etc but the general 'addons' that every game has become accustomed to, will not exist here.
Now, that's not to say we won't have something like a DPS meter. If logs are pulled at all from combat some one will figure out how to rig ACT or something to get a DPS meter. So that I wouldn't say is impossible just yet, with current knowledge anyway. But things like weakauras, healbot, vuhdo, etc will not be here.
It's back to being good because you are good. Not because you have the right tools to help do the job for you.
The one thing I pray they do have, as opposed to early EQ, is raid windows and the ability to see others mana. I really do not want to have to have tons of targeting and assist macros.
I would like to entertain the notion that part of the issue people have with UIs is information bandwidth. I'm going to try and focus my argument to a healer in a raid situation for brevity, not because I believe it is limited in scope.
If you are a healer in a raid, then it can be reasonably expected that you could, as the character you are roleplaying, be paying attention to the status of any given member of your raid at any given time. As such, it may seem logical to provide the player with all the information their character could have, and thus raid frames are born. However, it seems like a stretch to suggest that the healer character would have all the information all at once, which is what raid frames represent. Your healer character can only reasonably pay close attention to a few things or pay rough attention to a larger number of things. By connecting the bandwidth of incoming information to the quality of information, then the result might work out to indirectly disincentivizing UI clutter. Given how vague that all sounds, I feel like I have to provide an example, as rough as it may be.
Imagine a system where knowledge displayed on the UI is a result of how you divide the attention of the character you roleplay as. You can tell your character to pay attention to 1 ally and have an excellent idea of how healthy they are. You can tell your character to pay attention to 3-4 and have a good idea of how healthy they are. But if you tell your character to pay attention to 10+ people, then you only have a rough idea of how healthy they are at any given point in time.
Target character's health: When first targetting an ally you start with a health bar that has an uncertainty associated with it. Each second (or whatever time), you maintain focus on that target, the uncertainty decreases. After a few seconds of focus, you have an excellent idea of how healthy that person is. If focus is dropped, then uncertainty grows over time.
Non-targetted allie's health: You as a player can populate/depopulate your raid frames. The uncertainty in their health is a function of the number of players you are paying attention to.
Uncertainty could be represented in a number of different ways. Uncertainty could come in the form of an error margin on the end of their health bar.
Perhaps this would result in raids consciously dividing their tasks up. The 4 healers would all have to coordinate who they were paying attention to. Low priority healing targets may even have to call out for heals (voice chat, text, or an in game button?).
This concept could extend to enemies' health, debuffs on your offensive target (over time the list is populated), and likely other things.
I would be interested to see how using a balance of information quality and bandwidth would impact UI development, whether or not the result is anything like the idea I threw together here. So please don't hold me too tightly to my imperfect mechanic suggestion, but moreso the idea of balancing information quality vs. bandwidth.
Ainadak said:I would like to entertain the notion that part of the issue people have with UIs is information bandwidth. I'm going to try and focus my argument to a healer in a raid situation for brevity, not because I believe it is limited in scope.
If you are a healer in a raid, then it can be reasonably expected that you could, as the character you are roleplaying, be paying attention to the status of any given member of your raid at any given time. As such, it may seem logical to provide the player with all the information their character could have, and thus raid frames are born. However, it seems like a stretch to suggest that the healer character would have all the information all at once, which is what raid frames represent. Your healer character can only reasonably pay close attention to a few things or pay rough attention to a larger number of things. By connecting the bandwidth of incoming information to the quality of information, then the result might work out to indirectly disincentivizing UI clutter. Given how vague that all sounds, I feel like I have to provide an example, as rough as it may be.
Imagine a system where knowledge displayed on the UI is a result of how you divide the attention of the character you roleplay as. You can tell your character to pay attention to 1 ally and have an excellent idea of how healthy they are. You can tell your character to pay attention to 3-4 and have a good idea of how healthy they are. But if you tell your character to pay attention to 10+ people, then you only have a rough idea of how healthy they are at any given point in time.
Target character's health: When first targetting an ally you start with a health bar that has an uncertainty associated with it. Each second (or whatever time), you maintain focus on that target, the uncertainty decreases. After a few seconds of focus, you have an excellent idea of how healthy that person is. If focus is dropped, then uncertainty grows over time.
Non-targetted allie's health: You as a player can populate/depopulate your raid frames. The uncertainty in their health is a function of the number of players you are paying attention to.
Uncertainty could be represented in a number of different ways. Uncertainty could come in the form of an error margin on the end of their health bar.
- If your allies' health is represented as a bar of green/red then you could have an orange tab at the dividing point, within which the actual health value resides. The orange tab would represent uncertainty, where a large orange tab means high uncertainty.
- You could have a gradient between green/red, whose size represents uncertainty.
- You could have health bars made up of discrete sections, and uncertainty represented as the number of sections. High uncertainty means the bar is made up of 2 sections (above 50% health or below it), while low uncertainty means the bar is made up of 20 sections (you know their health status within 5%).
- You could represent uncertainty by updating an exact health status at an imperfect rate. Every 0.5 seconds one player (chosen randomly) in your raid frame gets their health updated to the exact value. This leaves the player uncertain of how up to date their health values are.
Perhaps this would result in raids consciously dividing their tasks up. The 4 healers would all have to coordinate who they were paying attention to. Low priority healing targets may even have to call out for heals (voice chat, text, or an in game button?).
This concept could extend to enemies' health, debuffs on your offensive target (over time the list is populated), and likely other things.
I would be interested to see how using a balance of information quality and bandwidth would impact UI development, whether or not the result is anything like the idea I threw together here. So please don't hold me too tightly to my imperfect mechanic suggestion, but moreso the idea of balancing information quality vs. bandwidth.
It’s a neat idea, but way too complicated to be implemented effectively, and in the end it’s similar to having a raid group without raid frames, because in a raid group without raid frames you need to distribute your healers through the groups to have the entire raid covered.
I don’t like this idea for enemies health, because it would lead to just staring at a list of enemies instead of having to cycle through the world and targeting/finding them when a target swap or cc is needed.
The one thing about limiting max distance that I haven't seen brought up is that some people experience vertigo or get sick to their stomach when playing in first person or with a narrow field of view in third person. I'm not saying the max distance has to be Diablo-like, where your character looks like a tiny dot on the screen. But on a standard server, there shouldn't be any forced-immersion restrictions on players.
On the other hand, I think it was Brad who said in another thread that they were open to the idea of having a first-person only PvE/RP-ish (heck, even a PVP/RP-ish) server sometime in the future if there was enough interest. Then there would be a cause for having that restriction, and it would bring a really cool dimension into it.
Beefcake said:So many of these posts are all about stating, "I don't like something, so no one else should have it, not even as an option, because than I have to use it."
No, you don't. Options are great. You don't like one, don't use it. Don't give in to peer pressure. Stick to your guns. Life will go on.
raiding usually requires you to be the best of the best..caring about competition is an important care in a game that will no doubt have a huge raiding scene.
Quick update about the initial UI Pantheon should have when you first login.
It should be simple and clean. WoW’s original interface is a great example, it has a transparent chat box, simple good looking unity frames, non-obstructive action bars and a clear option menu.
All these options can be changed, but having an intuitive and aesthetically pleasing UI that doesn’t overwhelm the players the first time they log in is really important.
Most mmo's I have played recently have 1 million UI "thingys", making the game really hard to play and enjoy from the first moment.
My suggestion on current things to improve upon are:
Chat Box – only 1 chat box with 2 tabs (main chat and combat), make the chat transparent.
Buff bar - Make the background trasnparent.
Status frame – Don’t like very much right now, maybe they’ll have a major rework in the future. Make it occupy less space, maybe give it a different shape and add an optional portrait.
Overall the current UI, in terms of information and the components it needs is perfect, I would just like to see it made a bit cleaner, that way you can see more of the game world.
The more choices they can give us without excessive drain on resources or risk of crashes the better. Allowing a very simple and clean UI is good. Allowing a boatload of customization behid the scenes is also good. Ideally we will be able to move UI displays around, change both chat and UI transparency and font size, have fewer or more quickbars, etc. etc. In general newer MMOs have more options than older MMOs and even the most hardcore lover of EQ or UO or The Realm or Yserbius or ..... will not be too upset by options that others can use and he or she can ignore.
Reviving this Topic just for the new camera distance info (it's something I really care about :) )
In the new stream it was said that the max camera distance of 3rd person is probably not going to be reduce, (I know all is subject to change) but I think VR should consider reducing it just a bit more, the game world is really detailed and it would be a shame if players failed to notice it because they're too zoomed out. (check the 1st page of the topic for some examples)
