Homercles said:As to Nameplates, I prefer the minimalist approach.
When a young lad ventures forth into the world, his lack of knowledge should be reflected by an absence of nameplates. But once an adventurer confronts a creature, a basic nameplate will appear overhead. And once that creature has been killed multiple times, a more specified nameplate appears.
So we start with No Nameplate. Then progress to "An Orc". Then further experience will yeild "An Orc Centurian" or "An Orc Shaman".
And the name is as far as I would go with nameplates. Never been a fan of debuffs showing on the nameplate. I prefer that info being communicated by the party members, not the UI. Maybe a good compromise would be if the debuffs only appear to the person that casts them. That way your friendly necro can see when his DoT expires. Or a that evil ogre druid can see when the snare is about to fade.
And I definitely dont like hp/mana/stamina on a mobs nameplate. Same goes for the "dot" system to signify difficulty. One dot, two dot, three dot. Yuck.
This "nameplate reveal" is also how I'd like to see player v player interaction. A players name won't be visible unless you formaly exchange greetings "Hail", or become groupmembers.
Mob Knowledge: There was a thread that brought up the idea of Zoos. If zoos were implemented, that would be a good way for the youngins to gain knowledge before venturing into the wilderness. They could go down to the zoo and read the plaquard for each display and gain the Nameplate knowledge that way, instead of thru multiple kills.
I think the nameplate reveal concept here is pretty interesting. I wouldn't mind seeing something like that. I'm definitely not a fan of the dots in Vanguard or the elite frames in WoW.
Youmu said:How would you play a DoT focused character then? Multi-DoTing being one of archetypes strenghts usually would you just sit there and spam tab to switch target to check the timers all the time, got to say that does not sound very fun, just frustrating. Having debuffs one the nameplates would help tremendously in stopping you from having to do that tedium. Could you tell my why not having them on nameplates would be a good thing?
yep, playing a dot class would be tab spam, and you guide youself by the first mob you dotted, but i don't think there will be much multi dotting going on due to cc requirements.
Keeping dots up on 2-3 targets without nameplates showing bebuffs isfairly easy imo.
You would still have to cycle through all those CC'ed mobs every time if you don't make some kind of smart tabbing system (which usually does not work well), I still don't understand why seeing at least your own debuffs on the nameplates is a bad thing.
The idea of having the nameplate "upgrade" the more you know the target creature type is interesting and I like it. I would like the base namplate at least show the current health (percentage), maybe name and your debuffs. And then have it upgrade to give you things like Mana, Stamina and Level. But minimalism is my thing, so just health and name would be ok also.
Some examples of what I am thinking of, pretty plain.
Pic 1
Pic 2
Pic 3
Some thing I would REALLY want are some more PvP focused things I think. A class icon or colour coding of the nameplate for the different classes in Pantheon. Personal debuff timers on nameplate so you can have an easier time in those big PvP scenarios with a lot of people. And cast bars, I am not sure how this would be done best but I think I don't want the full information of the spell cast on the castbar visible on nameplate level (such as full spell name), I propose to have the cast bar be colour coded by the type of magic being cast, Green for nature stuff, blue for arcane, grey for black magic and so on.
Youmu said:You would still have to cycle through all those CC'ed mobs every time if you don't make some kind of smart tabbing system (which usually does not work well), I still don't understand why seeing at least your own debuffs on the nameplates is a bad thing.
The idea of having the nameplate "upgrade" the more you know the target creature type is interesting and I like it. I would like the base namplate at least show the current health (percentage), maybe name and your debuffs. And then have it upgrade to give you things like Mana, Stamina and Level. But minimalism is my thing, so just health and name would be ok also.
Some examples of what I am thinking of, pretty plain.
Pic 1
Pic 2
Pic 3
Some thing I would REALLY want are some more PvP focused things I think. A class icon or colour coding of the nameplate for the different classes in Pantheon. Personal debuff timers on nameplate so you can have an easier time in those big PvP scenarios with a lot of people. And cast bars, I am not sure how this would be done best but I think I don't want the full information of the spell cast on the castbar visible on nameplate level (such as full spell name), I propose to have the cast bar be colour coded by the type of magic being cast, Green for nature stuff, blue for arcane, grey for black magic and so on.
I'm fine with seeing bebuffs on the nameplates.
I'm all for having nameplates for people that like them, but I would like to see the number nameplates active at a time restricted to 2, your current target (offensive and defensive). I know you're worried about multidoting but this won't be like wow were you fight 10+ mobs at a time and need to dot them all as quicly as possible, you'l be doting 1-2 mobs, maybe 3, at most because the rest will be cc'd. Also if tab targeting is implements right it should only cycle trough the mobs infront of you, and normaly cc'd mobs are not close to the mobs that need killing.
Everyone is talking about how you shouldn't restrict players from doing things they want. I want an xp potion that takes me from 0-60 because thats how i want to play. It doesnt hurt you, dont restrict me.
See the problem?
I think the UI limitation argument is a good one. Maybe not the exact way OP said it, but at the end of the day if there's a way to have your UI that makes you generally a better raider, than you HAVE to have that. I'm all for customization, but if the customization reaches a point of min maxxing then even people who want immersive gameplay have their method of gameplay restricted-so that they can have a million pieces of text on their screen and compete.
Because pantheon favors immersion and communication, OP's argument that too much text on your screen stops you from seeing the world, and needing to talk to your allies, seems valid, yet everyone discounts it just because it's a restriction to how they might want to play.
The game creators make a game with a play style in mind. That is basically saying the game creators have a way they want you to play their game. It's not restrictions to your freedoms, it's rules to make a particular risk/reward, fun, atmosphere. If you want Pantheon to play like an RTS, then VR will likely "restrict" you, because this game will not play like an RTS. If you want to argue against restrictions simply because they are restrictions, then you had better get started on the Pantheon game tenants.
Agree 100% with OP. There should be the need to pay more attention to the world itself, than the UI.
The point of the UI is supposed to be a way for you to monitor the things that you can't readily determine the way you could in real life. There is no visual combat damage for instance, thus we have a health bar. In the past, there was no direct chat to people around you, so we had a chat box. We aren't able to quickly look behind ourselves by turning our head, so we were given a third person option to view our immediate surrounding.
I think the problem enters in when the game goes beyond those conveniences which emulate reality, and make things easier than they should be. In real life, if you were fighting a massive battle, could you really see every person in an entire crowd and view their health status in real time? Of course not. For that reason, I don't think 3rd person that puts your camera 50+ feet over head should be a thing. Being able to see 20 health bars floating above the head of every mob/player around you shouldn't either. So on and so forth.
That is my approach to what should and should be in the UI.
The problem with the "don't restrict me because you don't like it" argument is that it will put the player looking for an immersive experience (which they claim to be going for), at a disadvantage. Too much UI detracts from the experience for most people whether you even realize it or not (everyone refers back to early EQ as the pinnacle of MMO immersion, and I'm fairly certain it's because it was locked first person). When you add a bunch of extra options that remove some (if not a lot) of the challenge of actually paying attention, anyone that does not care about those things and utilizes those extra tools is immediately more capable. That is not a good thing.
They have to choose what they're going for. If it's a game that wants you to look through a window and interact with minimal UI, that is what it should be for everyone within reason.
Dullahan said:Too much UI detracts from the experience for most people whether you even realize it or not (everyone refers back to early EQ as the pinnacle of MMO immersion, and I'm fairly certain it's because it was locked first person).
When you add a bunch of extra options that remove some (if not a lot) of the challenge of actually paying attention, anyone that does not care about those things and utilizes those extra tools is immediately more capable.
That is not a good thing.
They have to choose what they're going for. If it's a game that wants you to look through a window and interact with minimal UI, that is what it should be for everyone within reason.
agree(but <3 third person )
If you have to bring a music piece together
you can't just decide to bring the song adagio while the other musician decides to bring it prestissimo at the same time.
The "don't restrict me because you don't like it" argument is not a very sound one.
It is either an immersive experience more abstract and visceral game.
Or a game with robust interface that gives massive amounts of data.
In my view there is no way both sides can find each other here,they are 2 different type of players.
2 different ways the design and focus within this game could be realised.They can make one of both sides happy but not both.
Most MMOrpgs lean more towards the data heavy robust interface side,not the survival immersive style.
Personally I prefer the minimal UI and information, survival style
I'm all for customization too
not sure if it should be in playerhands.They could be allowed to toy with it on the test servers to help the team create different UI themes.
When addons become mandatory in raids and dungeons for optimal performance,like Beaverbiscuit mentions,that is where things often turn less palsy-walsy between players,Fluffy sad ;'-(
Just as people live too little in the moment ,distracted by their smartphone.
Players do not stop enough to enjoy the game ,distracted by data to achieve max perfomance,time and reward.
Comparable to the ongoing public illness
Data craze and detachement ,unfortunately not a problem only in games
I think there is an important destinction to do here between information and UI and it's delivery. Having information that is available in the interface by opening a window or similar and in combat UI (I guess out off combat could also be classified as its own thing). Some things I want to be "3rd party" only stuff, like combat log data and not part of the game UI at all, but for windows and stuff I would say go crazy, put all the stuff there. Hell make me able to cutomize what is shown in the windows and create my own tabs, restrictions here does not really matter imo. On the combat/character level I fully agree on restrictions, but I think some like Camera Distance is way more valuable for the immersive experience than Nameplates or Raid Frames even. If we really want to go for immersion I would argue that Action Bars are more immersive breaking than Nameplates (Most 3rd person action games have nameplates). And to be honest, nameplates are many times just as annoying as they are usefull, I find myself turning them off all the time in games like WoW when there is too much stuff, it becomes just a chaotic mess that hinders you more than helps at certain points. Combat (where nameplates would have their main use) is the place where immersion is always the least present aspect, you are constantly engaging with the mechanics of the game and usually too occupied with that to be able to really care about the immersive stuff, watching cooldowns, calling shots, reacting to health bars and what have you. It is I think I minor part of immersion (the information itself displayed might be different though, health example given earlier).
I agree but it is a good thing that we can see it so clearly here. People use the word immersion as a justification for everything it seems and without knowing what it means, even to themselves. One thing I think a lot of people mistake as being immersion is just excitement. The thing I said about not showing precise health on creatures and instead preffering just a percentage has nothing to do with immersion, it doesn't make you believe in the world more or anything, it is a thing that excites you for when you see that 5% health boss and things are just starting to go wrong and you might just make it. It is exhilharating, no one talks about the "2 million hp boss wipe", everyone remembers the "1% wipe", it becomes more mysterious and therefore more exciting, not immersive.
Beefcake said:People here keep using immersion as their justification for telling everyone else how to play. But, clearly, we cannot agree on what helps or detracts from immersion. All the articles here highlight that immersion is far from standard between us all.
I’m not using immersion as my justification to tell others how to play, I’m giving very specific examples where immersion is broken due to excessive UI elements , let me elaborate.
When you play a game there are certain things that cannot be displayed by the game world, things like hp, stamina, mana, your skills, and there is only two ways the game can go about it, the game either implements a UI that displays these elements, or the game keeps the information of these elements hidden from the player. That’s why a UI exists in the first place because some information cannot be displayed by the game world. Keep in mind that this information was never in the game world, that’s why these UI elements do not subtract from the game world.
There are some standard UI elements that need to be present in an mmo to provide the player with the necessary information to play the game (action bars, hp/mana, etc), these are the essential things you need to play the game properly, other things like floating health bars (main example I’m using for this argument) is just repeated information that the ui already provides, and these floating health bars do break immersion from the game world. That’s why I suggest the number of floating health bars you can have active at one time be restricted to 2 (you current offensive and defensive target), that way it becomes an option, not a requirement. Because as I have said before, most players use what’s more effective, even if they do not like it, so if the option to have multiple floating health bars is there, it would become a necessity, and not an option. The same can be applied to raid frames.
Youmu said:If we really want to go for immersion I would argue that Action Bars are more immersive breaking than Nameplates (Most 3rd person action games have nameplates)
Action bars are a necessity in a mmo, because they are the main way of interaction during combat, on the other hand floating health bars are and addition to the information that the ui already provides.
Youmu said:And to be honest, nameplates are many times just as annoying as they are usefull, I find myself turning them off all the time in games like WoW when there is too much stuff, it becomes just a chaotic mess that hinders you more than helps at certain points.
You might not like seeing them but it’s always advantageous to have floating health bars active, it might not look good, but it’s an easier way to keep track of the mobs, that’s why I would like to see floating health bars restricted to your current target (offensive and defensive), that way it’s no longer a requirement, it’s an option.
Youmu said:Combat (where nameplates would have their main use) is the place where immersion is always the least present aspect, you are constantly engaging with the mechanics of the game and usually too occupied with that to be able to really care about the immersive stuff, watching cooldowns, calling shots, reacting to health bars and what have you. It is I think I minor part of immersion
Not entirely correct, yes during combat you have to check look at certain things other than the game world, (like your health, or your action bars), but that does not mean that the game world needs to be less immersive when you do have to look at it, let me explain with an example:
You’re a dpser, and you’re doing your thing during the combat(looking at you bars considering what skills to use, checking you mana or endurance, all related to your static UI), suddenly 3 mobs join the fight now you are required to look at the game world and interact with it, this is where things like floating health bars would be detrimental to the experience the game is trying to create, instead of having to look at the mobs you would just look at their floating health bar and focus on that, because it’s easier and more effective.
Youmu said:People use the word immersion as a justification for everything it seems and without knowing what it means, even to themselves. One thing I think a lot of people mistake as being immersion is just excitement.
To me immersion means playing the game with a minimalistic UI and having to pay attention to the game world rather than UI elements, (with the exception of chat and my hp), and the original intent of my post was to give some insight on why to many of these extra, non-crucial, interface elements (that are already present in the games core UI) can be detrimental for the game.
Things like showing only % hp on mobs health vs numbers, fall under the topic, the exact “information vs mystery” and I’m all for only showing % on the hp.
Edit: a lot of spelling stuff, and added the last quote.
Amsai said: Well as important as immersion is that is not why I would prefer a less is more approach. Mine is for challenge.
Both immersion and challenge are a byproduct of limited information in terms of the UI, and I'm with you on the challange part, I don't want certain UI options becoming mandatory becasue they give such a big advange, that's why i would like to see VR set some limitations on the interface.
Beefcake said:People here keep using immersion as their justification for telling everyone else how to play. But, clearly, we cannot agree on what helps or detracts from immersion. All the articles here highlight that immersion is far from standard between us all.
How are we defining immersion as anything other than being able to see and interact with the actual, perceivable, game world instead of text?
Immersion is just being absorbed by something, dedicating your mind to something. You can be just as immersed with the world as you can with anything else. Who is to say that being immersed in the fight and the mechanics is a bad thing? When in combat one should be immersed with the combat, not the pretty writings on the wall, that comes when you exit combat.
I miss the old school stone colored UIs we had in games like Baldur's Gate and Everquest. It must have been more immersive for me for some reason. I also find these transparent windows sometimes make text more difficult to read.
It is harder for me to get immersed overall these days. It's not to do with the game or the graphics. It's to do with becoming familiar with computer programming, how games are made, and that it's a business. As they say, ignorance is bliss. Another issue is that things I enjoyed are no longer the in thing anymore in the entertainment industry. It has gone in a much different direction more catered to families. This is what most people want now. The new generation has a different idea on what is fun/immersive in general. Since there are more of them then there are of people like me I have little influence on what entertainment is made.
Youmu said:Immersion is just being absorbed by something, dedicating your mind to something. You can be just as immersed with the world as you can with anything else. Who is to say that being immersed in the fight and the mechanics is a bad thing? When in combat one should be immersed with the combat, not the pretty writings on the wall, that comes when you exit combat.
I never said you shouldn't pay attention to the combat, or be immersed in it, that is an essential part of the combat experience.
What I’m saying is a clean UI that doesn’t display repeated and unnecessary information results in a different, less automated, more challenging, play style, and my main concern is that the implementation of these elements (multiple floating health bars, raid frames, max zoom, etc,) as options in the game, will lead to their mandatory use, because from the moment these features give an advantage in gameplay they become a requirement (for most players) not an option.
So many of these posts are all about stating, "I don't like something, so no one else should have it, not even as an option, because than I have to use it."
No, you don't. Options are great. You don't like one, don't use it. Don't give in to peer pressure. Stick to your guns. Life will go on.
Beefcake said:So many of these posts are all about stating, "I don't like something, so no one else should have it, not even as an option, because than I have to use it."
No, you don't. Options are great. You don't like one, don't use it. Don't give in to peer pressure. Stick to your guns. Life will go on.
It’s not about peer pressure, I don’t care if other think I’m player right or wrong, I care about doing what’s best and most effective and if that means having the screen filled with green floating bars, using raid frames, or even boss timers I will do it, because it’s the best thing to do. And has I’ve said many time before, when it gives an advantage in gameplay (most players) will use, then it’s no longer an option, instead it becomes a requirement.
Edit: spelling
Here's my view on UI, as a cleric/ enchanter first in EQ original, and later as a priest in WoW. I've experienced both the extreme minimum UI (some of you younger gamers would not BELIEVE how bare-bones EQ was originally!)... so I feel comfortable adding in my points of view here.
In original EQ, you had to have raid awareness. Raids were truly challenging, and you had to WATCH everything. As a tank, a healer, or crowd control, you were not able to watch health bars in a raid window, you had to SEE visually who was getting slapped around. You had to SEE which enchanter was in trouble, and you had to cycle through the tanks and the main mobs to see where health was at on the heavy hitters.
Your DPS had to mind their aggro. They KNEW that they were not a priority. Mana was reserved and if you drew aggro, well... it was a sad, sad day to be you.
As an enchanter, situational awareness and calling out for heals was a MUST, also. I didn't have anything spoon feeding me when mezes were about to go. I had to time it, and because of this, I learned to excel. I took GREAT pride in my CC skills both on my bard and on my enchanter. I knew my limits, I knew the mobs, and I knew how and what to lock down in what order. I knew how to cut my mana usage with a razor's edge. I even knew when to sit down JUST before a tick of mana regen. I knew when the next tick of mana would hit and I knew when the next mez would fall and on which mob.
Then I ended up in WoW which was easier to drop out of to take care of the baby... and I played a Priest. It wasn't long before I had to get Healbot. I very simply could NOT keep up with the other priests and shamans and everyone else who could heal. If I didn't have Healbot, I wasn't effective. The game began to CATER to the use of Healbot to the point where not using it was shooting yourself in the foot.
I could now stand in one spot, provided I wasn't in an AE, and just click on the screen and hit a button. Pretty soon, I got so I could just click one of my 5 mouse buttons.
I rarely needed to look away from my Healbot panel unless someone was out of range. In which case, it was just "gripe at the idiot that got out of range".
You become very divorced from the action when you're watching bars. If you don't HAVE to watch everything going on around you, it becomes actively inefficient to do it. People get upset because you're "bad at your job" because you've refused a tool that makes you more efficient. The game begins to revolve around the expectation that people will be "effective" and "efficient" and use the top technology of the time... if that's Healbot or something else.
Something else happens, too. Devs now have to focus on MAKING people move. They have to add AEs, they have to FABRICATE what once came naturally... keeping an eye on your surroundings. They now have to distract you from the very UI they put in to allow you to distract yourself from the game itself for "efficiency's sake".
If having a certain thing like Healbot available becomes the most efficient method, it ceases to be a question of "individual play style." You cannot be competitive if you CHOOSE an immersive playstyle of watching the game instead of the UI interface. If you can do the SAME thing with a simple click of a mouse button, then you must do so or you jeopardize everyone. It literally becomes where you are not only less desirable by far, but you are an active detriment.
It can NOT be passed off as individual play style. In time, the game begins to revolve around these efficiencies, it HAS to. If you have guilds powering easily through things because all of their people are using these more EFFICIENT methods, then the devs will be forced to compensate. At that point, "choice" ceases to exist because "well, you can just not be good enough for any groups or raids if you want [and use that other ineffective method]" is not a valid or just option.
To play WoW as a healer without Healbot is to cripple yourself significantly. It isn't about choice, it's a necessity. Yes, I get it, there's that one dude who never uses anything and he's super duper extra special and is such a phenomenal twitch gamer that he can make the whole world sing. But even that admits that you must be exceptional to play without it, and most of us just aren't exceptional. We still want to play, though...
Beefcake said:So many of these posts are all about stating, "I don't like something, so no one else should have it, not even as an option, because than I have to use it."
No, you don't. Options are great. You don't like one, don't use it. Don't give in to peer pressure. Stick to your guns. Life will go on.
I say this with gentle respect, but this is not how life works. If you decide not to use tools that make you more efficient, you WILL be ostracized.
We want a game where reputation matters... but then it sort of seems like people are saying, "Let them eat cake." If you don't like it, don't use it is not a valid response because the game has to be built around the most efficient method. If you cannot keep up with people who are using the most efficient method, you get a bad reputation. At that point, it's game over for you.
To simply say not to give in to peer pressure is unfair. We want a game where peer pressure matters. We want a game where you have reputation, and where people expect you to be good at your job. Where pride in hard work means something. We cannot both say, "Don't give in to peer pressure" but then also say, "make reputation matter". If the game is made for the most effective and efficient use of the UI (and it has to be), then people who refuse to use it are killing their own reputation.... Then they have no friends in a game that's all about forging friendships.
I love the idea of allowing flexibility, but I urge caution in the degree of flexibility offered. The devs absolutely must cater to the most efficient method. The game cannot last long if they don't.
Using the most effective and efficient method is not optional in a game based on reputation, friendship, and an expectation of excellence.
This topic reminds me of This Guy making the same arguments.
Well after reading the OP I really have to say, If you think Sco's ui is a good thing then we are far and away on different pages. His UI is freaking horrendus. You can get all the same info with much better things. Elv UI would have been a much better example. With weakauras for key things you want to watch.
Nameplates should only show when something is missing health and allow us to filter friendly/unfriendly please. Also what I would love as a tank is something similar to threat plates where it shows your threat on mobs preferably by color. This is of course as someone who usually ends up playing a tank but it helps a lot for dps as well.
Simplistic, minimalist UI's generally are the most popular. Not many people like having all that clutter.
