That system is already included in Pantheon in the form of Defensive and Offensive targeting. Defensive targeting allows you to select players, while simultaneously having a hostile/NPC targeted with Offensive targeting. As far as the streams go you can't actually see a Defensive targeting window yet, but the system exists.
Edit: Nevermind, I see you're talking about the Extended Target system from EQ. It is a great UI piece that I would personally love to see.
I would really like to keep the big floating icons above people's heads ala WoW out. I hate seeing all that garbage.
An extended targeting window, maybe. I really don't see what more you'd need other than defensive target, offensive target, and target of target.
CC should not need to take direction from the rest of the group. They need to know how group dynamics work and just do their job. If everyone is on the same page there shouldn't be an issue.
I can't really say this without sounding like a jerk and its not really my intention, but the raid icon system in WoW always felt like it was there for the idiots who just couldn't do anything without shinny things flying in their face.
I played EQ forever and never once had an issue figuring out what I should be targeting or doing. I feel it gets people to actually learn how to play the game well, and not just rely on everyone else to hold your hand and tell you what to do every second you're in game.
Things like /assist become second nature. Using the target of target window to figure out who is getting beat on by mob x.
Shai said:You can't have too many targeting tools, but if VR gives us a highly customizable UI then maybe we don't need VR to make all these windows for us.
The UI is not going to be that customizable. It'll be skinnable, but that's just cosmetic. A player-created extended target window would require an amount of source code that we just won't have.
I personally think the extended target was a good quality-of-life addition in EQ. It does take up a pretty obnoxiously large amount of screen space, but overall I think it's more helpful than not. So I wouldn't mind VR giving us one. I won't revolt if they don't, but it is a nice feature.
The extended target window was indeed "nice" to have, but I also really enjoy the bare-bones dynamics of early EQ... instead of just going in guns blazing, you (if you didn't suck) would need to assist the MA, so you weren't damaging/dotting the adds, and let the CC do their thing. I feel like the extended target window would make it so you just stare at the little window to see if there's adds and monitor the fight, versus actually looking at the world around you.
Quintra said:The extended target window was indeed "nice" to have, but I also really enjoy the bare-bones dynamics of early EQ... instead of just going in guns blazing, you (if you didn't suck) would need to assist the MA, so you weren't damaging/dotting the adds, and let the CC do their thing. I feel like the extended target window would make it so you just stare at the little window to see if there's adds and monitor the fight, versus actually looking at the world around you.
In fairness, the extended target window didn't really change how people play the game. Being able to mass pull and "go in guns blazing" is more or less because of AAs, discs, and combinations of them that result in that kind of gameplay. Extended target or not, 5 mobs is still 5 mobs.
Quintra said:I feel like the extended target window would make it so you just stare at the little window...versus actually looking at the world around you.
This is a really good point. Ideally, you want people "heads-up" for maximum immersion and enjoyment; however, to achieve this the UI has to be incredibly good. It has to really effectively communicate information to you and very efficiently translate your commands into actions. The difficulty of implementing this scales with game complexity, so with respect to targeting in Pantheon I suspect it would be particularly challenging when it comes to Crowd Control and Healing. I guess my point is: my preference is minimalist UI provided that VR can give me all the information I need to perform my role.
Bazgrim said:The UI is not going to be that customizable. It'll be skinnable, but that's just cosmetic.
From the official FAQ:
Yes, the UI will be customizable and skinnable. We will likely avoid, however, true scripting languages that might allow a player to create macros that automate gameplay.
So both skinnable and customizable. I'd love to know more about how customizable. WoW's user interface api was a work of art and should be considered a gold standard. They did use a scripting language (lua), but the api was rock solid and couldn't be abused for gameplay automation.
In VG, I used the advanced targeting window alot. There were some fight where you could get 4 or 5 adds popping at same time. Psi's in VG could only mezz 2 of them. You needed multiple mezzers and to keep the psi's from mezzing same mobs, 1 psi would mezz adds 1 and 2 on the targeting window, and the 2nd psi would mezz 3 and 4.
Marking targets is essential for raiding; I'm sure they'll include them. Here's my suggesstion. Have two sets of marks, one being symbols and the other being numbers. I like what Rift did (but will add my own customization).
Symbols (crown, heart & shield at minimum, available in different colors) - Ideally these would be used to mark raid leads, healers and tanks, so commands like, "Stack on yellow shield," are easily followed.
Numbers (1-9 at minimum) - Used to mark NPC's
While I would not say no to what the OP proposes and do not want to reply to the idea in a negative way, I feel like I want to throw this into the discussion to be considered before we all agree that symbols and paint by numbers is the only way to go:
I would personally prefer to see something like the current EQ system that uses no markers or paint by numbers system, instead using the mobs names to coordinate the raid. A system like this requires strong guild/raid communication and raid/guild teamwork and cohesion and is a MAJOR part of succeeding or failing in any given raid. It feels more challenging than having a paint by numbers, fool proof system in place like WoW and other MMO's with the symbols etc. and I think that it is one of the things that helps seperate top raid guilds from the guilds that are not willing to put as much effort into the teamowrk required to have raids go smoothly and without too much issues and downtime, or continuous wipes due to poor communication etc.
If guilds want to succeed in Everquest, they follow this motto: "If you want nice things, you are going to have to learn to work together" and having mehcanics that make working together too easy in my opinion are not something I would like to see in Pantheon unless it could be implemented to have a "standard" and "oldschool mode" raid options or something?
The symbols/numbers 1 through 9 etc as markers could be the "standard" way to raid, and if a guild chooses to step up to the next level, they could choose to enable "Oldschool mode" before the FTE and raid the oldschool way, without symbols and perhaps some other things done to make the encounter more challenging. Of course, this would yield slightly better drops than the standard, much easier way of raiding? (and bragging rights as well of course, maybe unlock a title for the achievement...)
Shai said:Bazgrim said:The UI is not going to be that customizable. It'll be skinnable, but that's just cosmetic.From the official FAQ:
Will we be able to customize our own UI in-game without add-ons?
Yes, the UI will be customizable and skinnable. We will likely avoid, however, true scripting languages that might allow a player to create macros that automate gameplay.
So both skinnable and customizable. I'd love to know more about how customizable. WoW's user interface api was a work of art and should be considered a gold standard. They did use a scripting language (lua), but the api was rock solid and couldn't be abused for gameplay automation.
Unless they've changed their stance recently (which I doubt), I think "customizable" means more like being able to move windows around so you can choose where on your screen your health bar is, the party window, etc. as opposed to the ancient EQ UI where everything was fixed. The question itself says "without add-ons"... VR made it clear that they don't want there to be any player-created add-ons such as DPS meters, aggro meters, etc. An extended target window would be a similar type of add-on. So basically, if VR doesn't make it, we won't have it.
I, for one, prefer it this way, but that's irrelevant haha.
Portalgun said:While I would not say no to what the OP proposes and do not want to reply to the idea in a negative way, I feel like I want to throw this into the discussion to be considered before we all agree that symbols and paint by numbers is the only way to go:
I would personally prefer to see something like the current EQ system that uses no markers or paint by numbers system, instead using the mobs names to coordinate the raid. A system like this requires strong guild/raid communication and raid/guild teamwork and cohesion and is a MAJOR part of succeeding or failing in any given raid. It feels more challenging than having a paint by numbers, fool proof system in place like WoW and other MMO's with the symbols etc. and I think that it is one of the things that helps seperate top raid guilds from the guilds that are not willing to put as much effort into the teamowrk required to have raids go smoothly and without too much issues and downtime, or continuous wipes due to poor communication etc.
If guilds want to succeed in Everquest, they follow this motto: "If you want nice things, you are going to have to learn to work together" and having mehcanics that make working together too easy in my opinion are not something I would like to see in Pantheon unless it could be implemented to have a "standard" and "oldschool mode" raid options or something?
The symbols/numbers 1 through 9 etc as markers could be the "standard" way to raid, and if a guild chooses to step up to the next level, they could choose to enable "Oldschool mode" before the FTE and raid the oldschool way, without symbols and perhaps some other things done to make the encounter more challenging. Of course, this would yield slightly better drops than the standard, much easier way of raiding? (and bragging rights as well of course, maybe unlock a title for the achievement...)
EQ has had a /mark 1-X command for many years.
Also, you're basically saying that you want a hardmode toggle. Unfortunately, the effect of this will be that elite guilds won't be affected at all and will get better drops. It really only serves to punish players who weren't good enough in the first place to obey simple commands.
WoW isn't really a great example either, in my opinion, because WoW has its raid encounters designed around the fact that these UI elements exist in the first place. However, the ability to mark NPCs is probably among the absolute bottom of UI tools that WoW has to simplify the game. Removing it would probably have a negligible impact on any raiding guild that isn't at the bottom of progression.
Honestly a lot of the suggestions for making the game harder in general that I see on these forums would have a negligible impact on top tier players.
Bazgrim said:Unless they've changed their stance recently (which I doubt), I think "customizable" means more like being able to move windows around so you can choose where on your screen your health bar is, the party window, etc. as opposed to the ancient EQ UI where everything was fixed. The question itself says "without add-ons"... VR made it clear that they don't want there to be any player-created add-ons such as DPS meters, aggro meters, etc. An extended target window would be a similar type of add-on. So basically, if VR doesn't make it, we won't have it.
I, for one, prefer it this way, but that's irrelevant haha.
If I interpreted the OP correctly, the inquiry was whether or not it will be included in the default UI. Customizable usually means that you can use XML to have relatively complete control over UI elements, and the only restriction is the data provided by the client to pull the information for the elements from.
For instance, in EQ you can move Health of Target's Target to the target window, then repurpose the Health of Target's Target window to included something like your current haste %. However, the data regarding the current haste % is already included in your inventory window so it's not like you're pulling additional information from the client.
I was mainly just wondering what people would like to see. Either a extended target window, some that EQ already has. A Physical marking system, like wow has. Or if people prefer neither and want to go barebones tab targeting. Something that we may want VR to think about adding if enough people show interest in.
I made a suggestion for the devs to consider, to the best of my knowledge. I am having a difficult time seeing where I said "I want a hardmode toggle"
I do however want to see the forum lawyering and twisting of the meanings/intent of posts and ideas intended to assist developers come to a stop, and general ambiguous toxicity on these forums come to an end.
Kilsin should not have to issue warnings, and the fact that he has had to do so on several occasions is surprising tbh
Altering the parameters of a fight to increase challenge and loot outcome is essentially what hardmode is in other MMOs. I didn't twist your words. I don't really understand how you could've gotten offended by my post, it was pretty straightforward.
Discussing moderator action is also not allowed on these forums, as I've found out myself.
Ok, simple breakdown. I am not offended by you or your post, and if your post was enough to offend, pretty sure you'd get a ban for it.
I made a suggestion, and yes, you did twist/alter my words to tell me in your post that I said I want a hardmode toggle, when in fact I did not say I wanted it at all. I did however suggest it as a possible option for the devs to consider.
As per discussing moderation, what I said does not violate the terms in any way. If it does, I will gladly accept the consequences
This will be the last reply to you on these forums Liav, as we do not see eye to eye and that's fine, I can respect that we see things differently, but I do not appreciate anyone twisting the intent or altering what I said in my posts.
I wish you all the best in your endeavors in Pantheon :)
Liav said:Bazgrim said:Unless they've changed their stance recently (which I doubt), I think "customizable" means more like being able to move windows around so you can choose where on your screen your health bar is, the party window, etc. as opposed to the ancient EQ UI where everything was fixed. The question itself says "without add-ons"... VR made it clear that they don't want there to be any player-created add-ons such as DPS meters, aggro meters, etc. An extended target window would be a similar type of add-on. So basically, if VR doesn't make it, we won't have it.
I, for one, prefer it this way, but that's irrelevant haha.
If I interpreted the OP correctly, the inquiry was whether or not it will be included in the default UI. Customizable usually means that you can use XML to have relatively complete control over UI elements, and the only restriction is the data provided by the client to pull the information for the elements from.
For instance, in EQ you can move Health of Target's Target to the target window, then repurpose the Health of Target's Target window to included something like your current haste %. However, the data regarding the current haste % is already included in your inventory window so it's not like you're pulling additional information from the client.
Yes that is what the OP is asking. As I said, I kind of hope it is.
But for the side-note of add-ons, we will have to wait and see how VR defines "customizable." I'm just assuming it will be pretty minimal, as we have discussed in other threads that even DPS meters don't really pull any additional info from the client. All the info is in the combat log, it just translates it into an easier-to-understand form. But VR already said they don't want dps meters. And aren't I correct in my understanding that an extending target window would require an add-on, as it would have to pull additional info from the client? (the names and health of the other monsters that are aggroed) since that wouldn't be otherwise accessible.
Liav said:Discussing moderator action is also not allowed on these forums, as I've found out myself.
But aren't you violating the guidelines by telling someone to not violate the guidlines by telling people to not violate the guidelines? lol And then what does that make me right now? o_0 how meta...
sorry, couldn't help myself :P
Panda said:Marking targets is essential for raiding; I'm sure they'll include them. Here's my suggesstion. Have two sets of marks, one being symbols and the other being numbers. I like what Rift did (but will add my own customization).
Symbols (crown, heart & shield at minimum, available in different colors) - Ideally these would be used to mark raid leads, healers and tanks, so commands like, "Stack on yellow shield," are easily followed.
Numbers (1-9 at minimum) - Used to mark NPC's
I completely disagree with this. Its not essential. I rarely used this in WoW.
I think a lot of people here feel the same about the UI. We want to keep it minimalistic. We do not want to see big floating icons everywhere. We don't want to see floating damage text flying across the screen. We just don't want it. I do not think it would be needed and wouldn't be missed. EQ did not have a system like this orignally. Groups found a way to work without big floaty icons. You paid attention to the screen and not the UI. When you saw something come wandering into agro range, you were ready for it. This was because it was your job as CC to watch for that kind of stuff. You would act proactively instead of reactively to someone else's direction. If you couldn't do that then you were a bad CC.
This all comes back to the no hand holding much of us want to see. I want to see a game where people actually pay attention and learn their roles and do their jobs without needing to be guided every step of the way. I can deal with an extended target window, but the floaty raid targets... gah I will be severly disapointed if they are in the game. It flys in the face of everything the game set out to be in my opinion. An old school MMO that doesn't go easy on you and challenges you.
Bazgrim said:
And aren't I correct in my understanding that an extending target window would require an add-on, as it would have to pull additional info from the client? (the names and health of the other monsters that are aggroed) since that wouldn't be otherwise accessible.
No, this would not require an add on. This is a UI element built into the game in EQ. If VR builds it into the UI no addons would be needed.
Portalgun said:I made a suggestion, and yes, you did twist/alter my words to tell me in your post that I said I want a hardmode toggle, when in fact I did not say I wanted it at all. I did however suggest it as a possible option for the devs to consider.
This is just semantics. I was simply pointing out that your suggestion is "optionally increasing challenge and loot outcome", which is basically identical to hardmode encounters in other games.
I wouldn't think you'd suggest something unless it's a feature you'd want in the game. It just seems like such a trivial thing to nitpick over.