Between this thread and the one about role playing, it gave me an idea that I personally think would be really cool and not too difficult/far off from the sleeper script. To further immerse ourselves in the world, I touched on the topic of how it would bring the world to life if we valued, awed, or respected certain heroic or evil NPCs in Pantheon the way the way they did toward Gandalf in LoTR (for argument's sake). Much like the sleeper script prompted a world/zone wide massacre among other things to begin, I think it would be so cool to have an NPC that is actively or at least appears to be actively living out a life, and by life, I mean his location, actions etc would be varied or even random at times if possible; to a point where we don't know what theyre doing or where at any given time.
What I'm going for is a long term/end game type NPC that may use perception at the beginning like Gandalf and knock down Bilbo's door to give us some lowbie quest or idea of who this NPC is if we choose, and then, depending on the depth we go or faction gained with this NPC, perhaps he appears randomly to help us in times of need, or simply randomly shows up at various times to serve some function. Basically this is expanding upon the system the devs have actually already outlined (NPCs will walk routes that vary by time of day etc, and if they die and dont make it back to the village, then the players have to deal with the loss of the items, buffs, perhaps quests etc that the NPC offers). I feel like a similar script could be written for just some autonomous good or evil power that pops in and out during our adventure (perhaps dependent on perception or perhaps just an NPC everyone sees regardless).
It would be so immersive to fight beside/for this character from lowbie levels, then getting that epic feeling of fighting beside him mid/max level perhaps during a raid or something significant tied to lore (similar to how heroic it felt to see Gandalf pop up here and there, giving us that feeling that even if we are alone or hope seems distant, there is always a chance gandalf might appear or provide guidance). It would be epic, but only if the NPC really felt "alive," by randomization, progression, time of day, day of the month, I dont know just some mechanism to make him feel visceral.
Another food for thought idea on immersion; the idea of cut scenes. Those cut scenes we would see in the old final fantasy 7-9 games, and even starcraft2 with zeratul fighting kerrigan, or the animated commercials of WoW on tv that brought it to life etc, where the game's normal pixelated animations and textures turn into beautiful, highly detailed scenes to instill in us the importance/drama of the scene. It just brings the world to life. Brings everything you imagined in your brain or fantasized, and turns it into a living, palpable image that puts shape and form to thought and fantasy. I don't know, in all the rpgs, rts's, adventure games and mmos I've ever played, those cut scenes outweighed any drama/intimate/emotional connections with both the characters and world of the game by a wide margin. Not sure what production costs are like, but even just a few cut scenes at the major turn points of the game or perception would really set this game apart from other mmos (and serve the theme for immersion and world building) to a T. I think it would be innovative and efficiently trasngressive.
Would love to hear some thoughts on how difficult this would be to accomplish, or any other thoughts in general. Beyond polishing the pulling/fighting tactics in general that are arguably most important or fun in mmorpgs, I feel the future of mmorpgs or at least expanding upon or creating a new disctinct brand for them to flourish, lies in making the NPCs and world feel holistically alive and spontaneous. The entire principal of mmorps is living an escape to join another world alongside others, but since we actually have full control of our lives/interactions in game, we can accomplish things we couldn't perhaps in real life. We can become the best at something, connect with others and make a good name for ourselves, dictate a world and people when we feel we can't do that working the static 9-5 every day. It's the whole Westworld premise put into a video game. Freedom to live out fantasy, which only feels more rewarding/exhilerating the more lifelike the world appears to be. A world where we leave more than a carbon footprint (just using these metaphors to stress how important/valuable creating a living world of dynamic NPCs and quest lines or story progressions. Make people want to live/interact in this world instead of our own, by means of spontaneity and mysetery, never letting us truly know whats around the next corner, as opposed to themepark mmos were used to, where we know everything we're doing for the next few months because everything is dailies, predictability, lock out timers etc. After building upward with a successful product with proper branding, you then have to start building outward, expanding on what's already good.
Cut scenes like that are utilized in LotRO to advance the story line. That sort of thing should be easily doable. Unsure if it is a good use of time though.
To give another idea...I like the concept of mobs in game that can't be killed until multiple expansions later once the players power has increased drastically. Maybe there are NPCs that warn the player that this mob is beyond our means. It should be powerful enough that it isn't even close to killable ...though I guess that is how Kerafrym was intended to be. It should be similar except do a better job at making it unkillable ;)
philo said:Cut scenes like that are utilized in LotRO to advance the story line. That sort of thing should be easily doable. Unsure if it is a good use of time though.
Here are Brad's thoughts about cut scenes:
"I've got no fundamental issue with cut-scenes. I think they are probably more useful in a more linear, single player game. I can see how they could be used though to enhance certain parts of an MMO.
But that doesn't get around the fact that they are expensive to make. I would much rather spend money on components of an MMO that are truly fundamental to making the game great. Sure, if money was falling from the sky, I might give cutscenes some thought. But, at least at present, it would make no sense to plan to have them in Pantheon -- weighing their cost against how much they truly add to an MMO just doesn't work."
(Source: https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/2068/cut-scenes)
Bazgrim said:philo said:Cut scenes like that are utilized in LotRO to advance the story line. That sort of thing should be easily doable. Unsure if it is a good use of time though.
Here are Brad's thoughts about cut scenes:
"I've got no fundamental issue with cut-scenes. I think they are probably more useful in a more linear, single player game. I can see how they could be used though to enhance certain parts of an MMO.
But that doesn't get around the fact that they are expensive to make. I would much rather spend money on components of an MMO that are truly fundamental to making the game great. Sure, if money was falling from the sky, I might give cutscenes some thought. But, at least at present, it would make no sense to plan to have them in Pantheon -- weighing their cost against how much they truly add to an MMO just doesn't work."
(Source: https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/2068/cut-scenes)
Thanks for the reference. I suppose the silver lining to Brad's quote is it was quoted back in 2015, well before Series A funding was even completed. I think the immersion factor is greatly underestimated, and as I do research it appears the cut scenes are becoming almost mainstream, with Guild Wars, LotR, even final fantasy 14 containing hours of cutscenes for the mmo, so I guess I'm a little late to an idea that's already come to fruition, but I feel improvements can be made on the scenes I've been viewing today, especially with the texture and lighting improvements we've had the recent pleasure of seeing. When you boil it down to its essence, the cut scenes achieve the same immersion people want from a single player rpg as they do for a multi player rpg. Argument can be made that many multi player mmorpg consumers however do not necessarily play for the rpg experience (PvPers, people serving military that just want to play with loved ones back home etc), wheras single player RPG consumers are certainly craving the rpg taste, but from what I've been reading the numbers really support it.
In any case it would be an excellent additional layer, but I would agree with Brad if costs are so exorbitant to create them even at this point, I'd much rather have resources put into fleshing out the basic foundations first. I still think the other idea about a good or evil gandalf NPCs wreaking havoc or serving some function to trigger events in certain zones to increase or mitigate challenge would be tastefully engrossing. And again, from what's been revealed, it really doesn't seem too far off of the current design they already have for travelling NPCs.
I don't mind cut-scenes but I would much rather see in-game scripted events to tell a story, where you're still playing your character while the NPC's do their story telling part, it's much easier to create and it fits a living world a lot better because it doesn't pause game it just happens.
jpedrote said:/I don't mind cut-scenes but I would much rather see in-game scripted events to tell a story, where you're still playing your character while the NPC's do their story telling part, it's much easier to create and it fits a living world a lot better because it doesn't pause game it just happens.
Haven't MMOs already been doing this for 20ish years though (assuming you mean the plane of time style NPCs talking in /ooc)? Or do you mean some extra kind of script or feature with the story that I didn't interpret correctly here? Normally during the scripts, we are all standing there waiting for mobs to spawn anyhow. You don't think a cut scene would offer much more emotion/climactic feel compared to that?
Zuljan said:jpedrote said:/I don't mind cut-scenes but I would much rather see in-game scripted events to tell a story, where you're still playing your character while the NPC's do their story telling part, it's much easier to create and it fits a living world a lot better because it doesn't pause game it just happens.
Haven't MMOs already been doing this for 20ish years though (assuming you mean the plane of time style NPCs talking in /ooc)? Or do you mean some extra kind of script or feature with the story that I didn't interpret correctly here? Normally during the scripts, we are all standing there waiting for mobs to spawn anyhow. You don't think a cut scene would offer much more emotion/climactic feel compared to that?
One of the things I *love* about the way that FFXIV implemented their dynamic events (FATEs) is that often, immediately prior to the event actually opening, a few NPCs will run through a script to sort of "set the stage" for what the players are doing. For example, there's one such event where some bandits are trying to train a giant turtle to use as a weapon and players have to defeat them. Before that starts, the bandits spend a few minutes running around the area trying to "catch" the turtle, yelling to each other "He's going that way, try to get in front of him!" and so on. It's a little thing, but seeing NPCs actually doing things like this (even if we kill them later) really helps add a lot of immersion to the world.
philo said:Cut scenes like that are utilized in LotRO to advance the story line. That sort of thing should be easily doable. Unsure if it is a good use of time though.
To give another idea...I like the concept of mobs in game that can't be killed until multiple expansions later once the players power has increased drastically. Maybe there are NPCs that warn the player that this mob is beyond our means. It should be powerful enough that it isn't even close to killable ...though I guess that is how Kerafrym was intended to be. It should be similar except do a better job at making it unkillable ;)
Cutscenes are expensive to produce...that is the drawback, there are other more important things to spend development money on. Same with voice acting. I betaed SWTOR..wayyyyy too many cutscenes, I would rather play the game myself instead of feeling like the audience in the back row. Hopefully we won't be inundated with either cutscenes or voice acting.
I like to imagine the voice of the character I created ..in my head, not have some foreign voice coming out of my character and saying things that I personally feel my own character wouldn't say. Some rpgs do this. I find it annoying. I don't need the game played for me. :)
The other thing that happens with cut-scenes..is your fellow group members, get impatient they want to hit escape or get out of being stuck in a cut-scene that they've already seen several times. So there's that. And I don't blame them.
Kind of interesting how the crowning PVE achievement of Everquest's history was accomplished by the most savage PVP server of its time. Having been there at the raid for this, and played on Rallos Zek for years, I think people could learn a thing or two about their comments about how "PVP brings out the worst in humans". Sometimes it brings out the best too.
Rallyd said:Kind of interesting how the crowning PVE achievement of Everquest's history was accomplished by the most savage PVP server of its time. Having been there at the raid for this, and played on Rallos Zek for years, I think people could learn a thing or two about their comments about how "PVP brings out the worst in humans". Sometimes it brings out the best too.
I dont think that it had anything to do with the fact that it was a PVP server. If the same people were on a PVE server they most likely would have done the same thing. I have played on both PVE and PVP servers in my long history and it doesnt change the way i look at the game, it only changes my playstyle while actually playing.
Also i would hardly consider that the CROWNING achievement of PVE EQ. It was quite literally a zerg fest.
I would say Realm of Insanity becoming the first guild to ever kill Tunat Muram Cuu Vauax at level 65 was PRETTTTY crowning.
Zuljan said:Haven't MMOs already been doing this for 20ish years though (assuming you mean the plane of time style NPCs talking in /ooc)? Or do you mean some extra kind of script or feature with the story that I didn't interpret correctly here? Normally during the scripts, we are all standing there waiting for mobs to spawn anyhow. You don't think a cut scene would offer much more emotion/climactic feel compared to that?
I never played EQ so I don't know how the Plane of Time event is, but what I'm talking about is nothing new in MMO's WoW has been doing it for years and in my opinion works really well and it's time and cost effective because you're using ingame assets to tell a story.
Some examples of this if you wanna check it out, Thrall arriving to nagrand to talk with the son of a dead friend https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2JWlYQ0mqMs&ab_channel=Chilias or the battle for lights hope in the Wotlk DK starter area https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T8g7K3_MFRM&ab_channel=Joe0079 , they're all ingame scripted events that tell a story and do it really well.
Don't get me wrong I love good cinematics ( this one is really good https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3AlnE16-2NI&ab_channel=NexxyOG ) but it's not feasible for Pantheon (or any other MMO for that matter) to use them everywhere and keep it at high quality, so the ingame scripted events are a really nice option they still do the job, not as flashy but still good enough to keep the players engaged and tell a good story. Also Mobs don't need to spawn at the place, they can spawn in an hidden or of limits area and make their way to the place of the event like Nephele mentioned in FFXIV.
jpedrote said:Zuljan said:Haven't MMOs already been doing this for 20ish years though (assuming you mean the plane of time style NPCs talking in /ooc)? Or do you mean some extra kind of script or feature with the story that I didn't interpret correctly here? Normally during the scripts, we are all standing there waiting for mobs to spawn anyhow. You don't think a cut scene would offer much more emotion/climactic feel compared to that?
I never played EQ so I don't know how the Plane of Time event is, but what I'm talking about is nothing new in MMO's WoW has been doing it for years and in my opinion works really well and it's time and cost effective because you're using ingame assets to tell a story.
Some examples of this if you wanna check it out, Thrall arriving to nagrand to talk with the son of a dead friend https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2JWlYQ0mqMs&ab_channel=Chilias or the battle for lights hope in the Wotlk DK starter area https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T8g7K3_MFRM&ab_channel=Joe0079 , they're all ingame scripted events that tell a story and do it really well.
Don't get me wrong I love good cinematics ( this one is really good https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3AlnE16-2NI&ab_channel=NexxyOG ) but it's not feasible for Pantheon (or any other MMO for that matter) to use them everywhere and keep it at high quality, so the ingame scripted events are a really nice option they still do the job, not as flashy but still good enough to keep the players engaged and tell a good story. Also Mobs don't need to spawn at the place, they can spawn in an hidden or of limits area and make their way to the place of the event like Nephele mentioned in FFXIV.
I see where you're coming from now. I agree, even those little scripted things like they had at Karazhan in WoW (red riding hood, big bad wolf etc running around on stage) would be a solid, affordable substitute if cut scenes are still out of the question. Any extra immersion will be welcomed
I like to watch cutscenes. I love to see the artwork, the storytelling, etc. But more often than not when confronted with a cutscene in an MMO it's like getting slapped in the face. I was in a world where every decision and every second can mean the difference between life and death. I was there with my own destiny in my hands, with a sense of danger and trepidation, and then... *WHAM*, I'm yanked from the world in which I was a key figure in a critical moment, to being a spectator outside that world. Even if the experience doesn't outright piss me off, it derails the sense of belief that hopefully the game carefully crafted for me so that I felt fully engaged.
Feyshtey said:I like to watch cutscenes. I love to see the artwork, the storytelling, etc. But more often than not when confronted with a cutscene in an MMO it's like getting slapped in the face. I was in a world where every decision and every second can mean the difference between life and death. I was there with my own destiny in my hands, with a sense of danger and trepidation, and then... *WHAM*, I'm yanked from the world in which I was a key figure in a critical moment, to being a spectator outside that world. Even if the experience doesn't outright piss me off, it derails the sense of belief that hopefully the game carefully crafted for me so that I felt fully engaged.
I found this to be really interesting feedback to analyze. So would you say even a non cutscene (akin to what jped is suggesting) would also make you feel you were abruptly yanked from immersion/out of control? Also were you assuming your character himself would be in the cutscene? I personally would not put our chracters in the cut scene (if it were WoW, picture a maybe 30-40 second cut scene of Illidan maybe waking in his chambers or sensing a disturbance, standing up maybe grabbing sword and shield or waving his guards over and walking toward the camera and then the battle commences, basically just giving us a small lifelike representation the given NPC, his throne/habbitat, perhaps inclement weather, etc). Or are you saying just any cut scene regardless of our characters being in them still make you feel youre losing immersion? I've never really considered people took immersion to such an extent, but I think it's actually kind of cool to get caught up in the world so strongly like that. Just makes the game more enjoyable.
No, I would not feel the same about in-game scripted actions. Because it's me there in the game witnessing something in the world I was already engrossed in.
No, I don't think my character being in the cutscene or not would really factor into how it jars me from the experience I had (hopefully) been savoring the moment before.
One second I'm there, in the world, knowing full well that at any second I could be dogpiled by god knows what. The next second I can lean back in my chair, lock my fingers behind my head and chill while watching a video. That's a pretty stark transition of emotion.
If the game hasnt succeeded in making me feel much of anything thru the gameplay it's not nearly as likely that I'll care too much about getting slapped by a cutscene, but also not a game that I'll be playing for too long.
Zuljan said:Feyshtey said:I like to watch cutscenes. I love to see the artwork, the storytelling, etc. But more often than not when confronted with a cutscene in an MMO it's like getting slapped in the face. I was in a world where every decision and every second can mean the difference between life and death. I was there with my own destiny in my hands, with a sense of danger and trepidation, and then... *WHAM*, I'm yanked from the world in which I was a key figure in a critical moment, to being a spectator outside that world. Even if the experience doesn't outright piss me off, it derails the sense of belief that hopefully the game carefully crafted for me so that I felt fully engaged.
I found this to be really interesting feedback to analyze. So would you say even a non cutscene (akin to what jped is suggesting) would also make you feel you were abruptly yanked from immersion/out of control? Also were you assuming your character himself would be in the cutscene? I personally would not put our chracters in the cut scene (if it were WoW, picture a maybe 30-40 second cut scene of Illidan maybe waking in his chambers or sensing a disturbance, standing up maybe grabbing sword and shield or waving his guards over and walking toward the camera and then the battle commences, basically just giving us a small lifelike representation the given NPC, his throne/habbitat, perhaps inclement weather, etc). Or are you saying just any cut scene regardless of our characters being in them still make you feel youre losing immersion? I never really considered people took the immersion to such an extent, which is kind of cool.
I've gotta say I agree with Fey. For me, it's mostly the fact that in a cutscene, you don't have control over your character anymore. You can't move. You're just watching helplessly. You get so used to W moving your character forward, S moving it backward, etc. that you don't even have to think about it anymore. That's when you start to feel that much more connected to the game world and really get into the flow of things. You just have to think about where you want to go and your hands do the rest. It's subconscious. Then a cutscene interrupts that flow and you abruptly lose that connection. You're reminded that there's a keyboard in between you and the world. Imo, the whole reason to play a video game instead of watching a movie is because video games are engaging and interactive - you have control over what happens. I don't want to keep switching back and forth.
Feyshtey said:I like to watch cutscenes. I love to see the artwork, the storytelling, etc. But more often than not when confronted with a cutscene in an MMO it's like getting slapped in the face. I was in a world where every decision and every second can mean the difference between life and death. I was there with my own destiny in my hands, with a sense of danger and trepidation, and then... *WHAM*, I'm yanked from the world in which I was a key figure in a critical moment, to being a spectator outside that world. Even if the experience doesn't outright piss me off, it derails the sense of belief that hopefully the game carefully crafted for me so that I felt fully engaged.
Exactly Feyshtey...this is why I hope the cinematics/cut-scenes are kept to a bare minimum, and it is also a question of funding. I looked up the cost on the Net..and its pretty darned expensive for a minute and a half cinematic, nevermind anything longer. Keep in mind that Blizzard is rolling in dough, so are many other large established companies.
I guess I'll walk this back slightly...
I don't think I'd have too much heartburn if the cutscenes were utilized in very specific cases. For instance, if I were to go to the Great Library and pull a giant dusty tome from the shelves, and instead of reading about some historical event it was presented as a cutscene, that would work. That's reinforcing the action I chose while not having any baring on how my character was now idle in the gameworld. It's just some guy over there engrossed in a book, picturing in his mind's eye something that had already transpired.
This is a dramatically different use than when I scramble my way up to the commander at the front lines of a massive battle and suddenly I'm viewing the battlefield from the air while he recounts his challenges to me while I wait, completely out of any and all possible harm.
CanadinaXegony said:Feyshtey said:I like to watch cutscenes. I love to see the artwork, the storytelling, etc. But more often than not when confronted with a cutscene in an MMO it's like getting slapped in the face. I was in a world where every decision and every second can mean the difference between life and death. I was there with my own destiny in my hands, with a sense of danger and trepidation, and then... *WHAM*, I'm yanked from the world in which I was a key figure in a critical moment, to being a spectator outside that world. Even if the experience doesn't outright piss me off, it derails the sense of belief that hopefully the game carefully crafted for me so that I felt fully engaged.
Exactly Feyshtey...this is why I hope the cinematics/cut-scenes are kept to a bare minimum, and it is also a question of funding. I looked up the cost on the Net..and its pretty darned expensive for a minute and a half cinematic, nevermind anything longer. Keep in mind that Blizzard is rolling in dough, so are many other large established companies.
Yeah, even though, as Zuljan said, Series A has been completed, it doesn't exactly mean "money is falling from the sky" (to use Brad's phrase). I'm not one to really talk about how VR should use their "resources." But just as a clarification, they have said that Series A is a milestone they have been expecting to eventually reach for a long time. It was not unexpected and probably didn't really change the trajectory. I'm sure they already knew how they were going to spend that money long before they actually had it. It just means they're ready for the next step of development, which is hiring our fantastic new concept artists - an important job. Likewise, they probably already have a plan for Series B. It's not like there's suddenly a bunch of money lying around with nowhere to go, so they can just spend it on extra fluff like cutscenes (which usually cost tens of millions of dollars to do well throughout a whole game). Series funding was/is exciting, but it's still just all part of the plan that's been in place from the start. Like crossing something off an important to-do list. We've still got a long way to go and more important things to do in the meantime. I doubt "money will be falling from the sky" until after launch, if millions of people suddenly flock to the game.
It was honestly interesting and enlightening to read all of these different perspectives of cut scenes. It's impossible to tell from our limited sample size how many people prefer to have cut scenes and how many don't, but it really has me curious now. As far as the funding and financial plan; I agree, they are certainly unlikely to veer off the current financial plan/course, and an extra feature like that woudln't be prioritized even after series B funding. I was just being obective/playing devil's advocate since we don't know "officially" one way or another what has changed since that post over 2 years ago. I just like learning new things I guess, so I really can't stress how intersting the feedback was here for whatever reason haha; very unexpected and eye opening.
Saicred said:snip
For those EQ junkies like myself who might remember this day. You may remember how insane this was... Something seen as impossible became possible and took an entire server of top tier players coming together to make it so. I would love to see something like this in Pantheon. Something so hard, so extreme that it's seen as impossible... until it becomes possible.
Good ol' Karafyrm... In about a month on Agnarr there is a guild lined up to dominate all top content 24/7 with the sole purpose of waking the sleeper and killing him (then destroying ALL loot obtained from the zone, boss loot included) so that no one else on the server can obtain any meaningful loot from the zone. The death of sleeper (or even awakening the sleeper) brings nothing good to the server. At all. One guild gets the glory of being the jerks who ruined the loot for the entire server. Thanks...
Eventually, gear and numbers make it possible to kill anything, this whole notion of nostalgia is crap when having to go through it again. If a lore based mob was deemed unkillable, do the right thing. Make it invincible with GM mode and ensure every strike a DT.
Porygon said:Also i would hardly consider that the CROWNING achievement of PVE EQ. It was quite literally a zerg fest.
I would say Realm of Insanity becoming the first guild to ever kill Tunat Muram Cuu Vauax at level 65 was PRETTTTY crowning.
Killing the sleeper is widely regarded as one of the most significant moments in the history of the MMORPG genre. As impressive as it may be, I'd wager most people probably haven't even heard of Cuu Vauax. In my opinion, there's more to the story than just strategy. Yes, killing the Sleeper was just a zerg fest. But more importantly, it was the fact that sworn enemies united to defeat a common foe with incredible perseverance. It was that everybody thought the Sleeper was literally invincible. It was the scandal involving the GM despawning. You couldn't write a better movie script.
Moreover, I think the point of this thread is having legendary and mysterious encounters in Pantheon that gain notoriety throughout the community. It's not about replicating the exact story of Kerafyrm. It's not about blocking loot tables. It's about memories and stories that live on for decades.
