Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

Kerafyrm in Pantheon?

    • 363 posts
    January 2, 2017 3:26 PM PST

    Beefcake said:

    Maybe can all raid Kilsin!

     

    /tell Beefcake Can I join in on that raid?


    This post was edited by Anistosoles at January 2, 2017 3:27 PM PST
    • 9115 posts
    January 2, 2017 5:54 PM PST

    Anistosoles said:

    Beefcake said:

    Maybe can all raid Kilsin!

     

    /tell Beefcake Can I join in on that raid?

    Lol, you both wish! ;)

    • 1618 posts
    January 2, 2017 5:57 PM PST

    Since he is down under, we all need necros casting levitate spells so we are not fighting him upside down.

    • 3016 posts
    January 2, 2017 8:10 PM PST

    Vandraad said:

    I got killed in Skyshrine when Kerafyrm was wakened on Lanys.  Then the server crashed if memory serves.  That entire raid design was stupid.  Why?  Because it demonstrated one thing which you see people whining like babies about on these forums:  Denial of content.  Sleepers Tomb was all about denial of content.  Those few guilds who made it there sooner, rather than later, decided to deny everyone else on the server access to that content by waking the Sleeper and taking away everything that zone once offered.

    Yes, the zone was changed, all new NPCs and loot tables.  Some would say that is a good thing.  Others would say having the zone changed forever due to the actions of just a few is selfish and short sighted. I've always felt that everyone who plays the game should be able to experience all the content so long as they put in the appropriate level of effort.  Zones like Sleepers Tomb give preferential treatment to those who either started months/years earlier or progressed faster.

     

    Yup I remember all the hue and cry.   Heh

    • 144 posts
    January 2, 2017 8:19 PM PST

    It was incredible when all that went down, so I would love to see a VR cooked up idea that is on par with the kerafyrm idea for sure!

    • 3016 posts
    January 3, 2017 9:54 AM PST

    Well..maybe those of you that can help design raids/raidbosses come the time...might come up with a few original ideas to challenge Pantheon gamers. :)

    • 34 posts
    January 3, 2017 10:18 AM PST

    Hmm... "Unkillable mobs"... Brings to mind that Jurassic Park quote (Jeff Goldblum): "Life finds a way." Unkillable mobs... Players will find a way~

    I do like the idea of a mob (or a few) being 'one or two expansions ahead' in terms of difficulty (or I suppose that would be four expansions in the case of Kerafyrm), though I'd not underestimate the ingenuity of today's MMO players. It would be interesting to see who'd win that challenge -- the devs, or the players (assuming of course that all is fair where the mob isn't literally invincible and exploits aren't in the picture).

    • 110 posts
    January 3, 2017 10:30 AM PST

    Saicred said:

    *Exciting and interesting tale of Kerafyrm* 

    For those EQ junkies like myself who might remember this day. You may remember how insane this was... Something seen as impossible became possible and took an entire server of top tier players coming together to make it so. I would love to see something like this in Pantheon. Something so hard, so extreme that it's seen as impossible... until it becomes possible. 

    Forget that it was EQ and Kerafyrm, forget that it's about an impossible boss mobs and uber guids ... Saicred, what you've shared and wished for here is what many of us are looking for in an MMO that's been missing for so very long: The stuff that dreams and legends are made of.

    Here we have a story about a player from a PK guild leading the charge to kill the unkillable. Then, as word spread, uber guilds joined forces and fought the good fight. As it unfolded, word spread, and the whole EQ world was fascinated by the attempt. While they weren't exactly looking for their players to attempt this, this is EXACTLY what the creators of EQ (and from what I'm reading, the developers of Pantheon) had in mind when the game was founded: people from all different walks of life (in real life and as players) coming together to take up the mantle of battle and fight the good fight.

    I remember when it happened. And I remember the feeling of awe of learning the details. Knowing that I'd never be in a guild that would be able to do something like that didn't bother me. Having the tales passed along was akin to being inspired by the great stories in our world, whether real or fictional.

    I don't care if you were in an uber guild or a guild made of 10 family members -- those tales from those attempts were passed along and enjoyed. They didn't care if it was uber guilds and a PK guild (well, to be fair, that may have bothered a few people), but it shows when it comes down to brass tacks, differences can be set aside when it comes to something bigger than life.

    It also reminds me a bit of Landmark (hear me out on this). The developers intended that players could do A, B and C with the basic building blocks. However, the devs were astonished that players found ways to minipulate their voxels to do D, E, F, G, H, I, J and so on -- all without hacking the system. The same could be said for this battle (at least the honest attempts at it), where it probably amazed the devs and the GMs as it was happening that players were doing their best to try something they didn't realize was possible.

    • 626 posts
    January 3, 2017 10:51 AM PST

    Exactly - Every great game had that moment in it when something happened that shocked the gaming world as a whole. Even players who didn't play it heard about it, read about it, and talked about it. I would just love to see a creature in the game that the Dev's don't see being killed for 10 years, and we as players see if we can't do it in 5 :). I can see the storyline now where we pulled together 100 elite players and kited it around some massive zone slowly killing it for 6 hours until the deed is done... Honestly I can't stand seeing End game content and raids completed within the first month of release by top guilds... Make it take a year so its something we can talk about, and build up too. 

    • 105 posts
    January 3, 2017 11:00 AM PST

    I would love to see something like this.  It was these type of ideas that had me believe EQ was an actual virtual world.  Yes this was unfair to many players, but I don't want everything in the world controlled by my progress; plenty of crap "MMO" games out there do that already.  I would want to see as strong a living world as possible while keeping to the core tenants, unfortunately if you want a realistic world it's going to be a little unfair at times, but I'm okay with some of that.

    • 2886 posts
    January 3, 2017 11:14 AM PST

    Lghtngfan said:

    Saicred said:

    *Exciting and interesting tale of Kerafyrm* 

    For those EQ junkies like myself who might remember this day. You may remember how insane this was... Something seen as impossible became possible and took an entire server of top tier players coming together to make it so. I would love to see something like this in Pantheon. Something so hard, so extreme that it's seen as impossible... until it becomes possible. 

    Forget that it was EQ and Kerafyrm, forget that it's about an impossible boss mobs and uber guids ... Saicred, what you've shared and wished for here is what many of us are looking for in an MMO that's been missing for so very long: The stuff that dreams and legends are made of.

    Here we have a story about a player from a PK guild leading the charge to kill the unkillable. Then, as word spread, uber guilds joined forces and fought the good fight. As it unfolded, word spread, and the whole EQ world was fascinated by the attempt. While they weren't exactly looking for their players to attempt this, this is EXACTLY what the creators of EQ (and from what I'm reading, the developers of Pantheon) had in mind when the game was founded: people from all different walks of life (in real life and as players) coming together to take up the mantle of battle and fight the good fight.

    I remember when it happened. And I remember the feeling of awe of learning the details. Knowing that I'd never be in a guild that would be able to do something like that didn't bother me. Having the tales passed along was akin to being inspired by the great stories in our world, whether real or fictional.

    I don't care if you were in an uber guild or a guild made of 10 family members -- those tales from those attempts were passed along and enjoyed. They didn't care if it was uber guilds and a PK guild (well, to be fair, that may have bothered a few people), but it shows when it comes down to brass tacks, differences can be set aside when it comes to something bigger than life.

    It also reminds me a bit of Landmark (hear me out on this). The developers intended that players could do A, B and C with the basic building blocks. However, the devs were astonished that players found ways to minipulate their voxels to do D, E, F, G, H, I, J and so on -- all without hacking the system. The same could be said for this battle (at least the honest attempts at it), where it probably amazed the devs and the GMs as it was happening that players were doing their best to try something they didn't realize was possible.

    Yes and that is the ultimate sense of satisfaction as a designer. Emergent gameplay. To create something that takes on a life of its own that even you, who gave it life, could never have even predicted. I design board games and the same goes for them - I am amazed and utterly fulfilled when I watch those that play my games come up with powerful strategies completely within the rules that I didn't even know were possible.

    It's, by definition, something that you cannot plan but you sure as hell hope will happen. And fortunately it almost always does. So I can pretty much guarantee we will see this type of behavior in Pantheon. Social interactions like this between MMO gamers is something that has been studied ever since 1997 in Ultima Online when Lord British (a dev's supposedly-invulnerable in-game character) was killed by players during a beta GM event. MMO devs quickly realized that players will ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS try to find a way to do that which is supposed to be impossible, for better or for worse. At its roots, it's just basic human psychology. As a dev, you can try to plan for it or around it, but it's literally impossible to prepare for every possible option that players will attempt. By now it's pretty much just an unwritten rule of MMO's.

    • 160 posts
    January 3, 2017 1:28 PM PST

    Having a super-hard target, or even one that's not intended to be killed (as in, Kerafyrm), is one thing.

    Having an important raid area that changes forever when someone completes it (awakens the Sleeper, in that example) and then the old loot is not available to anyone else, forever, is just a bad design.

     

    One of the main problem of MMOs is that devs can't make new content at the speed the players are capable of consuming it; so, having any significant piece of content disappear, or be altered forever, is a serious change, something that should be avoided unless there are no better options.

    It's effectively a situation where one person's (or guild's) progress is affected by what someone else did. That's not a kind of game people enjoy playing. It's a kind of a game where those with nothing (or little) else to do would always block others (who have jobs, school, family, whatever) regardless of all other factors.

    • 2886 posts
    January 4, 2017 9:11 AM PST

    Aethor said:

    Having a super-hard target, or even one that's not intended to be killed (as in, Kerafyrm), is one thing.

    Having an important raid area that changes forever when someone completes it (awakens the Sleeper, in that example) and then the old loot is not available to anyone else, forever, is just a bad design.

     

    One of the main problem of MMOs is that devs can't make new content at the speed the players are capable of consuming it; so, having any significant piece of content disappear, or be altered forever, is a serious change, something that should be avoided unless there are no better options.

    It's effectively a situation where one person's (or guild's) progress is affected by what someone else did. That's not a kind of game people enjoy playing. It's a kind of a game where those with nothing (or little) else to do would always block others (who have jobs, school, family, whatever) regardless of all other factors.

    I agree and I really don't think we'll see taht in Pantheon. Brad has made it pretty clear that he doesn't want the top 5% to be able to blockade the rest.

    However, I do think it's important to have a few one-time events that people can feel truly lucky to have been a part of. And have those unique stories be passed on for years. That inspires a sense of wonder and mystery in new players that come along later or were not able to witness it themselves. It's a fine line.

    • 12 posts
    October 10, 2017 1:33 PM PDT

    Daevrikk said:

    A bit off topic: but just jumping in and derailing this for a moment to say hello to Senthin and Vandraad, fellow refugees from Lanys! It sounds like we played during the same era. I very much remember the drama you described, though my memory of Conquest goes further back to the days of Soul Assassins. Anyway...

    Oh, just because it is fun to go down memory lane, name this EC /auction "... serious offers only" ;-) be well friends and see you in Terminus!

    -Daevrikk, retired Dark Elf Necromancer from Lanys T'vyl server

    Wow does that kick start old memories... Soul Assassins was the first rendition of Conquest.. i was a human monk on the server, started the day the server opened. Name was Pewj O'Lizt. Ended up in the Guild Mithral Web.. nice to see some old folks from the hay day.

    • 21 posts
    October 10, 2017 2:08 PM PDT

    I remember the whole sleeper fight, it was talked about on all servers. It would be hard to recreate moments like that. It was a different time, now you would have people running in there parsing every attack and having strats asap. I hope I'm wrong and Pantheon can recreate some of those instances. I personally had a blast with the GM events. A giant brownie attacking Kelethin and every lvl 30 player in the zone having to take it down was stuff no other mmo has been able to recreate for me. Pantheon does have my hopes up, let's hope it delivers.

    • 3016 posts
    October 10, 2017 2:16 PM PDT

    Vandraad said:

    I got killed in Skyshrine when Kerafyrm was wakened on Lanys.  Then the server crashed if memory serves.  That entire raid design was stupid.  Why?  Because it demonstrated one thing which you see people whining like babies about on these forums:  Denial of content.  Sleepers Tomb was all about denial of content.  Those few guilds who made it there sooner, rather than later, decided to deny everyone else on the server access to that content by waking the Sleeper and taking away everything that zone once offered.

    Yes, the zone was changed, all new NPCs and loot tables.  Some would say that is a good thing.  Others would say having the zone changed forever due to the actions of just a few is selfish and short sighted. I've always felt that everyone who plays the game should be able to experience all the content so long as they put in the appropriate level of effort.  Zones like Sleepers Tomb give preferential treatment to those who either started months/years earlier or progressed faster.

     

    I missed that whole thing..was already gone from EQ...but I did hear about it.   In a case like that, you can't blame the players,  but you can blame the Devs for being short-sighted they're the ones that created the content.   I heard about the changes,  but wasn't really up on all the details.   It was pretty much a legendary event from what I understand,  even though it caused all those changes that people talked about for a long time afterward.   If changes were to be made it shouldn't have been changes that were detrimental to the ordinary gamer's play in EQ.   Again short sighted on the part of the Devs,  you can't really blame the players for accepting the challenge and going for it.   :)  Hopefully OUR Devs are much wiser than that. :)

     

    Cana

    • 3016 posts
    October 10, 2017 2:21 PM PDT

    Bazgrim said:

    Aethor said:

    Having a super-hard target, or even one that's not intended to be killed (as in, Kerafyrm), is one thing.

    Having an important raid area that changes forever when someone completes it (awakens the Sleeper, in that example) and then the old loot is not available to anyone else, forever, is just a bad design.

     

    One of the main problem of MMOs is that devs can't make new content at the speed the players are capable of consuming it; so, having any significant piece of content disappear, or be altered forever, is a serious change, something that should be avoided unless there are no better options.

    It's effectively a situation where one person's (or guild's) progress is affected by what someone else did. That's not a kind of game people enjoy playing. It's a kind of a game where those with nothing (or little) else to do would always block others (who have jobs, school, family, whatever) regardless of all other factors.

    I agree and I really don't think we'll see taht in Pantheon. Brad has made it pretty clear that he doesn't want the top 5% to be able to blockade the rest.

    However, I do think it's important to have a few one-time events that people can feel truly lucky to have been a part of. And have those unique stories be passed on for years. That inspires a sense of wonder and mystery in new players that come along later or were not able to witness it themselves. It's a fine line.

     

    Absolutely agree with you Baz. :) I'm sure we'll see events that we can ALL be excited about..not just the hardcore raider types. :)  I have no bias against hardcore raiders they do what they do,  and those server firsts and great gear are meaningful to them.     All the more power to them,  long as the rest of us get a few things we can participate in and be proud of too. :)     Gm Events for one,   I loved those back in the day,  you got to know the Gms,  they weren't just faceless CSR people writing chat notes to you within the game.  :)

     

    Cana

    • 3016 posts
    October 10, 2017 2:30 PM PDT

    Beefcake said:

    Maybe can all raid Kilsin!

     

    Raid the Dream Crusher?  Beware I hear he has sekret powers.  :)

     

    Cana

    • 470 posts
    October 10, 2017 4:04 PM PDT

    Saicred said:

    For those EQ junkies like myself who might remember this day. You may remember how insane this was... Something seen as impossible became possible and took an entire server of top tier players coming together to make it so. I would love to see something like this in Pantheon. Something so hard, so extreme that it's seen as impossible... until it becomes possible. 

    I remember it and the colorful chat that followed. But this is just one more thing that confirms an old addage when it comes to creatures, gaming, and anything D&D related; If you stat it, they will kill it. If something has the ability to be killed you best believe that players are going to find a way to do it.

    That being said, yes, I would like to see something like this that would literally require an alliance of elves, men, dwarves, and every other race in the game by way of multiple guilds to even consider having a possible slim chance at taking down. And that sort of thing should be quite rare. A specialty mob encounter if you will. That in itself becomes a server event, even if you're not a part of it.

    • 1860 posts
    October 10, 2017 4:42 PM PDT

    The thing that I liked about sleepers tomb...having not been on a server that killed it, was that it was a "special" area for those guilds powerful enough to farm the key (similar to PoM in that it was a special area for those capable of getting there).

    By the time your guild was able to farm the key for everyone, you were already into Temple of Veeshan so the loot in Sleepers Tomb wasn't that great...but it was an area that most people couldn't enter...and a few of the drops were useful even if they weren't replacing what you already had.

    It was about the feeling of accomplishment.  A special place for you and your guildies that no one else could access.  These kind of places can be incentive to players, extend content, while at the same time not contributing to powercreep and gear inflation.  I am all for more areas like this...even without all of the "legend of kerafrym" type of lore/one time event encounters.

    • 172 posts
    October 10, 2017 5:34 PM PDT

    Aethor said:

    Having a super-hard target, or even one that's not intended to be killed (as in, Kerafyrm), is one thing.

    Having an important raid area that changes forever when someone completes it (awakens the Sleeper, in that example) and then the old loot is not available to anyone else, forever, is just a bad design.

     

    One of the main problem of MMOs is that devs can't make new content at the speed the players are capable of consuming it; so, having any significant piece of content disappear, or be altered forever, is a serious change, something that should be avoided unless there are no better options.

    It's effectively a situation where one person's (or guild's) progress is affected by what someone else did. That's not a kind of game people enjoy playing. It's a kind of a game where those with nothing (or little) else to do would always block others (who have jobs, school, family, whatever) regardless of all other factors.

    I am glad someone else also brought this up.  When I think of the Sleeper event I really think of it in two parts.  1)  The Sleeper event, with the scripting, changing of the world, ect..  2)  The slaying of the Sleeper.

    Both of these were amazing things in the MMORPG world at the time.  The Sleeper event was truly epic.  The facts that each server could only do it once, that it required questing and dedicated play to trigger, and the fact that it permanently changed the server were mind-blowing.  Also, the slaying of the Sleeper was just as amazing in and of its self.  The use of powerful, but specific weapons, the specialized tactics, the coordination of guilds on a harsh PvP server...  again, mind blowing.  And to think they needed so many clerics on a PvP server.  Clerics were terrible at PvP.

    I think the idea of an event that permanently changes the server is not neccesarily a bad one.  Care should be taken that the changes are not designed to deny paths of progression to other players that follow after the event.

    The slaying of the Sleeper occured and was so amazing due to a combination of EQ being such a sandbox environment coupled with epic weapons that were truly overpowered for their time.  The clerics epic was required to slay the Sleeper at that time.  Most games that followed EQ had tight controls on their items in that none were made to be sooo much more powerful than another.  Given proper circumstances and strategy an item that can trigger a power (i.e. resurection, invisibility, a specialized attack) is far more powerful than a item with higher stats.  Most games that came after EQ simply bumped up the stats on later gear.  EQ let you gain powers from your equipment!  And I dont mean a short lived, minor boost.  I mean real power that your class should not likely have.

    I want to see these types of equipment in Pantheon.  Even if they are a bit unbalancing.  They make for amazing, emergent gameplay and incredible stories.


    This post was edited by JDNight at October 10, 2017 6:06 PM PDT
    • 332 posts
    October 11, 2017 2:25 AM PDT

    I highly doubt brad wants to even discuss this event or even repeat this type of encounter .

    The level of issues this type of encounter produced was highly problematic to say the least.

    The encounter was extreamly enjoyable , but unfinished on content release and caused serious issues for the devs and specific guilds that will remain unnamed. I have no problem with a elite level , or serverwide based encounter , as long there is no DMF or GMS that are wanting to despawn it due to poor planning on there part.

    - Conquest 

    • 3237 posts
    October 11, 2017 6:13 AM PDT

    I think it would be cool if there were epic world bosses that could only be killed while you are in a transport vehicle such as an airship or boat.  Imagine a fleet of ships that can work together in some ways, but still be independent in others.  Add another layer that requires crafters to perform ongoing maintenance of the vehicles while you fight.  If certain features of your ship are damaged during the battle, only skilled crafters would be able to repair them.  The repairs could require high-end resources and the skill of the crafters could have an impact on your performance overall.  Think something along the lines of a pit crew in a race.  They might not be behind the wheel but they play an integral role in your team's ability to win.


    This post was edited by oneADseven at October 11, 2017 6:16 AM PDT
    • 1785 posts
    October 11, 2017 8:05 AM PDT

    I would love to see big, triggered world events like the sleeper - but, more than one.  And possibly not as obvious or confined to one zone.  Make figuring out how to trigger them an "epic quest" in and of itself.  There should be times where we adventurers collectively do things that set off unintended consequences:  For example (and I'm just making this up) if the three Watchers spread around the world are ever all dead at the same time, a portal will open an a host of demons will invade part of Terminus.  Players would then have to fight through the invasion to close the portal.  That sort of thing.

    • 1303 posts
    October 11, 2017 10:51 AM PDT

    UnknownQuantity said:

    I doubt we will see anything else like this again in MMORPGs as developers wouldn’t allow the sleeper to be killed. There was some room for creative thinking in those days for players that isn’t available now. Everything will go as the developers plan it go in most cases and if it does’t they will likely have a way to lock it down. Personally I loved those days when people could experiment and come up with exploits, but I think we are long past that time.

    Pantheon devs have specifically stated that they embrace "emergent gameplay". In other words they like the idea of players finding new and creative ways to do things, perhaps even things that were not built to be overcome. They recognize the "on rails" gameplay that exists in a lot of MMO's (all) these days, and how much that detracts from creativity and a sense of discovery. 

    This is not to say that they will allow players to exploit. But it does give a sense they are willing to nod to new tactics they themselves did not anticipate. It's one of the things that keeps me on these boards and why I've invested in this project.