Well I am relatively certain that given the immense focus they are putting on making this game a social, grouping game where people build friendships and relationships to get stuff done, ala EQ, and not the typical "hit group dungeon finder, port in, don't speak, run through dungeon, break group" mentality that is present these days, they will require some steps that force you to use and have friends and allies. As someone who never was part of a large guild, and never got past Soulfire in EQ, I still think this is how it should be. I don't really raid, and don't care that great gear comes from there, i don't have the resources and connections to get the epic weapons, and i still don't care that they require that. I don't want everyone or even a majority of people to get epics, and I probably won't have it. I would rather that than a system where everyone does everything on their own...i hate those games and that is basically why a lot of people want Pantheon...to return to something we have lost. I definitely think epics should be mostly or half solo, a large chunk requiring a group, and a small amount requiring either a super skilled and well geared group, or little bit larger than one regular group. You want a game where you can get everything on your own without talking to a single person? Great...go play that game...there are about 500 out there right now.
Just for discussion purposes since some people in the thread are against the solo aspec in an epic because of the loss of the group socialization the Pantheon wants to instill. What is your opinion on this social experiment once end game guilds sell the clears / w/e is necessary? It is an undeniable fact this will happen.
I can see both sides on this fence though. Technically the social aspec is still alive since a player is relying on others, granted they don't have to do anything. I feel though for what seems to be a general consensus on what an epic is or should be (just exactly as the name implies) one should not be able to just buy their way to the top and should have to indure whatever is the nature of obtaining one, unless part of the quest involves literally buying parts.
I'm also not against people doing that. Just curious on peoples thoughts. Especially the people who think an entire epic should be group oriented for the purpose of it requiring you to be more social.
I think that composition of epic quests should reflect the composition of the game itself.
If Pantheon has 70% group designed content, 10% solo content, and 20% raid content, then the epic quest should also be 70%/10%/20%.
I do feel that some, very minor, portion of the epic should be solo. Some character introspection during a solo bit will make the process of obtaining your own epic feel more personal.
You made me think of EQ epics and hot all of them don't contain similar composition. If Pantheon went the route you said, I hope that is for all epics, while also keeping some unique. Nothing is more furiating than when I epic needs several raid targets while another is basically solo.
Eliseus said:Just for discussion purposes since some people in the thread are against the solo aspec in an epic because of the loss of the group socialization the Pantheon wants to instill. What is your opinion on this social experiment once end game guilds sell the clears / w/e is necessary? It is an undeniable fact this will happen.
Go back and read my post. If you dont give them a reason to lock the epic mobs down, they wont. It's a fixable issue if the itemization is done right.
Feyshtey said:Eliseus said:Just for discussion purposes since some people in the thread are against the solo aspec in an epic because of the loss of the group socialization the Pantheon wants to instill. What is your opinion on this social experiment once end game guilds sell the clears / w/e is necessary? It is an undeniable fact this will happen.
Go back and read my post. If you dont give them a reason to lock the epic mobs down, they wont. It's a fixable issue if the itemization is done right.
I apologize if asking a general question seemed to only be directed at you. That was never the intention. You can't just "fix" the lock down of epic things, unless they are put in something like solable instances. If there is a way for money to be had, it will be done. This has existed in all mmos forever, evne on "BoP" stuff. Now assuming the epic entails what the commonly accepted definitions for the word epic are. They will most certainly have people trying to sell parts of it. I would like to hear more though how you propose a fix to this problem than just "if done right". What is the right way? I surely hope you have more than what you put in your previous post, because what is there will not work.
Amsai: Side note: do they have to be weapons? What about epic shields, instruments and other tools?
I am sure I read somewhere that they are planning equipment based quest lines too.
Eliseus said:
I apologize if asking a general question seemed to only be directed at you. That was never the intention. You can't just "fix" the lock down of epic things, unless they are put in something like solable instances. If there is a way for money to be had, it will be done. This has existed in all mmos forever, evne on "BoP" stuff. Now assuming the epic entails what the commonly accepted definitions for the word epic are. They will most certainly have people trying to sell parts of it. I would like to hear more though how you propose a fix to this problem than just "if done right". What is the right way? I surely hope you have more than what you put in your previous post, because what is there will not work.
I completely disagree. I didnt take it personally. Just pointing out that I provided a solution. Maybe not a compelte solution, but it is a solution.
If the mob is good for nothing but epics, why would guilds lock it down?
If the quest progression requires those present to be on the quest to get the epic update, then who else would go other than those that gather friends to assist?
If the reward can't be mult-quested somehow to advance someone else through the quest, why would people do it unless they themselves were getting the epic or helping someone who was there to?
If the mob is triggered by someone on the appropriate stage of the quest then someone at the appropriate stage must be there.
And if you make the quest inaccessible to anyone that has completed the epic, and the epic is of sufficient value, then the only way a power-guild could monopolize the spawn in order to sell the advancement in some way not covered by the above, they would have to forgo attaining what should already be a pinacle gear item to do so.
The reason this has existed in all MMOs is because of short-sightedness, and treating epics like every other quest. It doesnt have to be that way. It just has been historically.
Eliseus said:Feyshtey said:Eliseus said:Just for discussion purposes since some people in the thread are against the solo aspec in an epic because of the loss of the group socialization the Pantheon wants to instill. What is your opinion on this social experiment once end game guilds sell the clears / w/e is necessary? It is an undeniable fact this will happen.
Go back and read my post. If you dont give them a reason to lock the epic mobs down, they wont. It's a fixable issue if the itemization is done right.
I apologize if asking a general question seemed to only be directed at you. That was never the intention. You can't just "fix" the lock down of epic things, unless they are put in something like solable instances. If there is a way for money to be had, it will be done. This has existed in all mmos forever, evne on "BoP" stuff. Now assuming the epic entails what the commonly accepted definitions for the word epic are. They will most certainly have people trying to sell parts of it. I would like to hear more though how you propose a fix to this problem than just "if done right". What is the right way? I surely hope you have more than what you put in your previous post, because what is there will not work.
I'm not sure anyone has the answer to how the developers will manage that. In the future, that veil will be lifted and we'll know. Certainly there must be something to minimize the negative or regressive conditions that might allow the behaviors of your concern from taking place. I can think of a few though (but I will not argue their merits or lack thereof). Just want to suggest that there are ways to prevent malignment of certain gaming behavior and I believe VR will consider and do what they feel is required.
1. Lock-out mechanics.
2. Epic requisite events will be different than other raiding requisites (different bosses or objectives) in some of the tests, items, quest objectives, etc. So you might not have a progression bosses also tied to epic questlines.
3. Tag mechanics (once a raid group engages, no other group can effect the engagement).
4. Drops occur only when a member of the group or raid has need for the item (i.e. if everyone on the raid has their epic, or if noone has a need for the drop, they will not see epic related drops from that boss or objective).
Also I think the propensity of responses in this thread are those that favor significant doses of group-centric activity. Those that want solo only epics are few and far between, if any.
I do not believe the game will favor their preference at all. Just a review of VR's tenets should immediately tell the reader that overall, basic game-play will be influenced heavily by the mechanic of the group neccessity. Hence, it makes sense that higher level game-play will follow those tenets as well.
I also think it's impractical to suggest that the idea of group dependency is manifested primariy for socialization purposes.
Agreed OakKnower. While socialization is certainly a factor, I believe that a fundimental reason that this game means to be group centric lies in the fact that cooperative coordinated team play is more challenging by it's nature and provides a level of difficulty that cannot be matched with single-player encounters. And because of that it is more rewarding. Not to mention you can share the joy of victory with others, which is almost always more fulfilling.
Syntro said:I think that composition of epic quests should reflect the composition of the game itself.
If Pantheon has 70% group designed content, 10% solo content, and 20% raid content, then the epic quest should also be 70%/10%/20%.
I do feel that some, very minor, portion of the epic should be solo. Some character introspection during a solo bit will make the process of obtaining your own epic feel more personal.
This this this thisity-this. It's logical, fair and adds in common sense.
I'd say 20% of it. If it's entirely group content then people who don't know or aren't good at playing their class can get an epic. It should be a challenge and should show that you are good enough, even on your own to have earned it. If it's all groupable, then you never know if that person is going to be good enough to support you in your raid.
nextivity said:Keying. I had a love/hate relationship with the keys in luclin. The farm seemed so daunting at first - the pieces you needed to get that VT key oh man. But thinking back on it now, I realize some of the best times I had in the game were with friends in these small farm groups/camps. Lots of downtime usually, boring farms mostly, lots of time to chat and laugh. Many many late nights spent cracking up with friends and have a beer or 8. I actually met my wife on a Ssra emp raid at 3 in the morning where we both tagged along with another guild just to get the VT key piece. Luclin had a ton of problems with design in general (every mob had 10000000 HP and ridiculous dmg mitigation) but PoP OTOH was the pinnacle of my time in EQ. Everything about that expansion was just perfect. I loved the zone progression (keying) and all the raids.
Life has moved on now though and so have my 20's. I can't play like that anymore, but I certainly wouldn't want anyone playing Pantheon to miss out on that amazing feeling of accomplishment after completing something like the VT key or an epic. Make it hard, make it for the few and the devoted, the casuals will have plenty to keep occupied if you build the world right.
I didnt do VT but did do VP and enjoyed the keying except for a couple of things (POP was my favorite expansion outside of velious)
- Pained Soul was a bit much. BUt other parts were great. Even the gem turn in to Niblek. It could be hard or with a properly factioned person it could be super easy.
If im going to key dont just give me access to a raidzone. I mean sure it was nice to get access to Sleepers Tomb. But ToV was so much better designed. If that had been keyed it would have been an amazing key.
You had areas for smaller raids as well as the bigger massive dragon fights. ONe of my favorite things in planes of power was having access to the elemental planes before plane of time for EXP, etc.
For the original discussion of this thread. I think the there should definitely be soloable parts and the breakdown of 25% Solo 50% Group 25% Raid isnt horrible. As long as the raids are spawnable pieces like they later did in EQ. Its difficult enough to get 40 people together to help you kill something. Lets not make it also be a race at 2 am. THe spawnable version of the monster could only drop the epic or have a very rare chance to drop something cool as well... im thinking Ixiblat here... Cloak of Flames... never saw one myself... but several friends got lucky.
DemiLich
But since we are here.. I would most like to see epic quests utilize rng variables to force everyone to "solve" their own epic quest and make it impossible to just follow a guide. If it takes a year to complete IDC if it requires grouping or raiding or not. What I don't want is an entire server queueing up for a single drop from a single raid mob because it only drops one per week. Shared epic quest bottlenecks are bs.
I agree with the last two comments since this thread came back from the dead. With, I might add, no death penalty.
As one of the more consistent proponants of Pantheon having a significant amount of soloable content (no need to either agree or disagree that isn't what this thread is about) I make a special point of coming here and agreeing that a truly epic quest should not be soloable although I don't object if small pieces of it are.
There was a comment somewhere that said an epic quest should probably reflect the nature of the game in a grand way, so I would think it appropriate to have similar solo, non-full-group, group, and raid content - also levels of class and crafting inter-dependencies - to reflect the proportions of the whole game.
Another thought prompted by the Coldain quest mention is that the best epics, as in many (most?) of the Everquest ones, should give useful/usable lesser objects as you progress.
I did the Monk epic in P99 a couple of years back and was actually reasonably happy to take a break from it at a stage quite some way from the end, because the cloak you had made by then - as part of the epic quest - was a fun and useful bit of gear.
Would be nice if soloers end up with a 'nice' piece of gear for the 'soloable section' of the quest - and can stop there if they want - but that item is enhanced and/or traded of others that are better as you progress through small group, full group, crafters, etc and up to raiding.
I can not agree more with this.
EQ Raiding became a JOB and a chore. Getting into a guild that was first to mobs after server resets meant being FORCED to be online at a certain time, for a certain amount of time. No Thanks.
SO...I agree with the below poster in that I think Epic just means it requires GREAT EFFORT, but NOT necessarily raid level.
I haven't put a ton of thought into HOW you do this, but maybe make 2 paths, raid is a shortcut, and solo takes a bunch more steps.
Make the solo version require items that drop on every mobs loot table, but only like .00002% of the time and are no drop. So the chance of getting it solo is there, but VERY rare. If you get it after 3 years of playing, it would still feel epic.
Unless you can make raids worth more than to one or two players at a time, they just are fun once and then become a way to add on to your DKP after that.
darcius said:Sabatour said:That wouldnt be an epic quest - that should be called something else.
I don't know, I guess we simply doesn't agree on the term "epic quest". For me, Epic quest mean a personnal achievement. Something YOU worked really hard to get. So I fail to see why an epic would require to kill the strongest raid mob in the game. I see it a bit more like some other people posted that it's a item that the character kinda "craft" for himself by gathering / completing a tons tasks. I wouldn't mind camping weeks and weeks for ingrediants, components or NPCs.
I also don't know how much more effort it represent for the player to defeat a raid boss with 40 people vs work hard on gathering things by himself. When I completed my epic in EQ, I can say that, the raiding part was actually the easiest parts of all.
Now, I do not know if this should item should (or should not much) the high-end raiding gear, and that's why I think it should be possible to upgrade it extra quests line where you need to actually defeat raid boss. Like someone already posted, it would be nice to allow the epic quest always "evolve" and keep updating it for new expension / new zone / new raids and such.
Perhaps there can be quite a few types of epic quests. There might be an epic crafting quest line where either some exceptionally hard combines need to be completed, some exceptionally hard to get items need to be used, a certain amount of cooperation with other crafters is mandatory or the like. Maybe with options - either craft one set of things *or* craft a different set of things.
As to adventure epics - I agree that a raid that can easily be blocked from access should not be a requirement. Such as one that raid guilds or others can easily monopolize. On the other hand - in a group focused game it seems logical that any exceptional reward would require ....grouping.
But not necessarily raiding - my view is that Pantheon should focus on group content and not either solo play or raid content though both "outlier" types of content should be supported and viable. I entirely agree that a raid requirement is likely to be the easiest requirement - easier than anything that can be done solo. Find a raid that someone else organizes, tag along, get credit.
I'd think at least 25% of it should be solo. Great preparation goes into epic journeys. You don't need a group or raid for those parts of it. Imagine having a group of peoplejust follow you around as you pick mushrooms or receive hushed/secret information, ...it wouldn't be so secret anymore and a lot of those hard to find mushrooms would be trampled. I'd say 50% should be single group required to be in line with how important group content is in pantheon. Probably 20% small raid required, like 2 groups or a single mega geared group, and one final big epic raid fight to bring it all together.
I'd also like to see each major section reward a piece of useful gear that gets better as you progress through the quest. Like for eq druid, start with a +1 wis scimitar at the begining and as you progress you get some better/interesting stats as they "refine" it and of course after the final epic encounter the unique clicky and great stats.
As for worrying about monopolization of main mobs, I think the best thing to do would make them spawnable and loot locked to the person or group who turned in the quest item. I never did enjoy waiting for ragefire to spawn. Hoping that it was not in the middle of the night(luckily it was at a time where a large amount of people were on). I also didn't like getting woken up in the middle of the night with the nagging obligation to help when the final epic boss spawned. I'm sure it was exciting for them but I just wanted my sleep lol. The anticipation shouldn't be worrying if enough of your guild wakes up in the dead of night, it should be for the boss fight itself.
I have promoted this (necroed) topic as part of my CM content; please continue the discussion and have fun! :)
"Community Debate - How much of an epic quest should be soloable? A community-created thread has debated this topic for a few years. What's your opinion on it? Let us know below. https://seforums.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/3854/how-much-of-an-epic-quest-should-be-soloable #MMORPG #indiegames"
I think the EPIC should be all Solo it should be your story line to follow that said by all solo I do not mean you will complete with out help but if your willing to go where need to go and find a group you can complete it. Think EQ 2 epic to mythic everyone that was willing to work the faction find pick up groups in the places needed could complete the epic with out a guild or Big group of friends. having a way to upgrade it with raiding is cool but make getting your class epic be a journey for the player.
I think getting my Dirge Epic in EQ2 was a bigger moment for me than the Bard epic in EQ1 or Upgrading it to mythic because of how much it was my quest I did it.
Epics should be solo'ed for a large part of it, with groups of 4 to maybe a raid size. It promotes getting things done together.
Worked in EQ, will work here.
Same applied to the shawl quest and the ring quest, very fun to do actually.
I think most of it should be soloable, but the stuff that drops from RAID bosses, or bosses in General should not be.
This game needs a mix of hard core and soft core gameplay. Because even though I played EQ back in the day in 1999, I don't want a full hard core MMO like the old days. People who grew up with EQ don't have the time they did when they were 15.
My opinion could be wrong, but I feel like it's a good comprimise.
Also don't make the item needed for the EPIC like 5% drop rate, or something insanely low. That just makes it annoying. Causing over camping of that MOB. Then you have the issue where top tier guilds, will always have first takes, and camp that MOB for weeks. I defintely don't want that again.
Especially if what you showed in earlier builds, where the MOB door locks behind you, to keep people out.