I don't feel that the epic should have a raid component. It should be very long, with many steps and include a lot of solo, grouping, crafting, you name it. But there are a whole lot of people out there who don't like raiding at all. We enjoy grouping and are willing to forego raid gear, which typically ends up being even better than epics. But the epic has always been the ultimate goal in personal satisfaction of a well played long term character. It means you spent the time and developed the skills to be rewarded your class epic. Let the raiders have their raid gear, let it be better, that's ok too. Make the class epic available to non-raiders as their ultimate reward.
Class quests should be solo, thats about it. Still difficult to pull off though, the less easy content in the game the better. Something along the lines of:
http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Quest:The_Ancient_Leaf and the related http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Quest:A_Proper_String
If others can recieve the quest then it should be group, IMO.
10% Solo (Easier to find items / crafting)
60% Group (maybe less)
30% Raid (maybe more)
I feel like I'm in the minority here. To me, the epics were awesome not just because of their stats but because they were recognizable and not everyone had them. It not only showed dedication but perhaps a larger mastery of different elements of the game. If it's soloable or duoable, that sounds like it won't be a problem for everyone to get them. That just sounds less epic to me. It doesn't hurt my feelings that I only made it to the Soul Fire on my pally and never attempted an epic on any of my alts. My friends helping take down Sir Lucan is one of my favorite memories of EQ. Every trip to Freeport from that point forward was more interesting. When I saw someone with an epic run by for the first time, I was compelled to take screenshots.
My view is that not everyone needs to experience every part of the game as every other player does. Just because an amazing item can be wielded by your class doesn't mean you have to get it... even if it's part of your classes story/lore. Having some items in the game be awarded only to the most dedicated players willing to master all aspects of the game but be available to every player willing to put in the time and effort sounds fair to me. If I only have 30 minutes to play every week, maybe that means that I'll never be able to do the raids required for a flaming sword of justice. And that's ok... because that doesn't mean I can't play and enjoy the game. There's other gear out there that will work for me.
I feel like some people believe that they should have access to anything in the game. My suggestion is that maybe it's ok if there's some stuff that not everyone can get based on their availablity. Maybe it's ok if the players in big raiding guilds are the ones who most often have the coolest stuff. And maybe it's ok that you see someone with gear so impressive that you feel compelled to take screenshots.
I won't be the guy with such awesomeness... I'll be the guy taking screenshots.
A mug of ale and a rusty short sword is all I need to have a good time!
... wait, that doesn't sound right.
darcius said:I don't know, I guess we simply doesn't agree on the term "epic quest". For me, Epic quest mean a personnal achievement. Something YOU worked really hard to get. So I fail to see why an epic would require to kill the strongest raid mob in the game. I see it a bit more like some other people posted that it's a item that the character kinda "craft" for himself by gathering / completing a tons tasks. I wouldn't mind camping weeks and weeks for ingrediants, components or NPCs.
I also don't know how much more effort it represent for the player to defeat a raid boss with 40 people vs work hard on gathering things by himself. When I completed my epic in EQ, I can say that, the raiding part was actually the easiest parts of all.
Now, I do not know if this should item should (or should not much) the high-end raiding gear, and that's why I think it should be possible to upgrade it extra quests line where you need to actually defeat raid boss. Like someone already posted, it would be nice to allow the epic quest always "evolve" and keep updating it for new expension / new zone / new raids and such.
The epic quest rewards should be the pinnacle of the gear for each class.
EQ did it well, many class epics were highly desireable for quite some time. Can be improvements on the theme but bottomline is that an item that rivals raid loot should not be optainable by soloing.
So, when we talk about epic quests (like the eq epic quests) then it should definately involve alot of group and raid content (I would say 90% of the time and effort involved) with some lore bits in between that could be done solo.
I do agree though, the epic rewards need to somehow be able to scale with gear progression.
quadrophenia said:I don't feel that the epic should have a raid component. It should be very long, with many steps and include a lot of solo, grouping, crafting, you name it. But there are a whole lot of people out there who don't like raiding at all. We enjoy grouping and are willing to forego raid gear, which typically ends up being even better than epics. But the epic has always been the ultimate goal in personal satisfaction of a well played long term character. It means you spent the time and developed the skills to be rewarded your class epic. Let the raiders have their raid gear, let it be better, that's ok too. Make the class epic available to non-raiders as their ultimate reward.
I think their is an issue about the definition about epic.
What I think the OP was referring to is the questline(s) that we had in EQ. The epic rewards were holding up very well progression wise all things considered. All in all, there should be thought into how to make them viable and growing through power progression that happens.
Those epics were never attainable through solo or in a group. You needed raids for some of the stages and to me that is fine.
One of the big points of this game is to go back to a more group and community based game and move away from the soloplayer centric games that we have today. Some stuff will be locked away from solo players and some stuff will be locked away from only group people.
The key is to make the game fun for most but from what I have gathered this game will reward groupplay (and raid play which is just group play but on a higher level team effortwise) and that is very rare in todays market. If you are a player that loves to play solo, then you might not be able to achieve all the things the game has to offer.
I still like the way Everquest did it, all the stuff is available for everyone IF you play accordingly (and group/raid). Otherwise you might not be able to see ALL the game has to offer. The entitlement that many players feel today just makes the games very bland and boring (in my opinion).
I'd break it down to more like this, there a pre quest you have to do, including rare drops, and possibily rare spawns, kinda like the pally pre quest of the Soulfire, than there the other long quest of the Fiery Avenger, very lil soloable, some were most groupable, and a lil bit of raiding, lots of faction grinding to both of them, than there the final step of getting the true epic Fiery Defender lil bit of grouping or maybe 2-3 grps, and the rest raiding to either kill the final target for the last item you need and possible to get to the quest turn in guy. This builds the community up and and with the faction grinding it builds the role of your character like it did with the paladin in EQ. You build your faction with the sourounding paladin guilds and seeking out corrputed guards, and everything else. When i got done with that quest i actually felt like a "Holy Knight". seeking justice, vanquishing evil, it felt great.
I actually hope the story-telling in Pantheon departs from the Campbell model. Mostly because that structure is recognizable, predictable and has been done almost to death - including by hits such as Star Wars and Lord of the Rings. I want to see story progressions and archetypes that are fresh: perhaps the hero is not reluctant but too eager, or perhaps we're taking for granted that our respective characters' roles will be heroes! There are so many possibilities to explore in games that emphasize roles and role-playing. :)
That aside, I agree with the others here who have voiced that this game should be primarily group-oriented. One of the major gripes I have with most MMORPGs these days is that the focus on solo content has taken the sense of community away and has instead engendered a culture of feeling entitled to zones, achievements and loot whereby groups are formed grudgingly and party members are essentially means to ends rather than ends in themselves. Players scarcely greet each other in dungeons anymore and people rarely thank each other for a job well done when the dungeon is cleared, and I think that's depressing and unengaging. I love to work together with others in the spirit of fellowship and of sharing an awesome time - rather than of indifference or disgust. Models that incentivize solo content leave me feeling like I'm alone in a crowd.
The other problem with too much solo content is that it necessitates either less complex challenges or more class homogenization - otherwise the challenges wouldn't be able to be surmounted alone.
AlannaTheFair said:I actually hope the story-telling in Pantheon departs from the Campbell model. Mostly because that structure is recognizable, predictable and has been done almost to death - including by hits such as Star Wars and Lord of the Rings. I want to see story progressions and archetypes that are fresh: perhaps the hero is not reluctant but too eager, or perhaps we're taking for granted that our respective characters' roles will be heroes! There are so many possibilities to explore in games that emphasize roles and role-playing. :)
Interesting viewpoint. Campbell's model is over-done perhaps. But I think the hero myth has such an important meaning in the psyche and history of humans that it's just natural to think that it's the go-to framework in fantasy based MMOs. I'm curious, do you suggest that a character who is not considered a hero should be able to lay claim to an epic quest reward?
AlannaTheFair said:That aside, I agree with the others here who have voiced that this game should be primarily group-oriented. One of the major gripes I have with most MMORPGs these days is that the focus on solo content has taken the sense of community away and has instead engendered a culture of feeling entitled to zones, achievements and loot whereby groups are formed grudgingly and party members are essentially means to ends rather than ends in themselves. Players scarcely greet each other in dungeons anymore and people rarely thank each other for a job well done when the dungeon is cleared, and I think that's depressing and unengaging. I love to work together with others in the spirit of fellowship and of sharing an awesome time - rather than of indifference or disgust. Models that incentivize solo content leave me feeling like I'm alone in a crowd.
The other problem with too much solo content is that it necessitates either less complex challenges or more class homogenization - otherwise the challenges wouldn't be able to be surmounted alone.
I won't disagree with you here for my own experience is much as you describe. As so many others have said, it is one of the main reasons I'm so interested in Pantheon. I'm all for more group dependency and I think Pantheon will deliver that organically. As a result, it won't (or shouldn't) be unusual to think that the epic quest will likewise require that dependency in droves during epic quests. I quess I'm somewhere around 60-65% group, 20-25% solo, 15-20% raid.
OakKnower said:I'm curious, do you suggest that a character who is not considered a hero should be able to lay claim to an epic quest reward?
I'm a good girl myself, but I think that players who wish to play as villains should be able to lay claims to these rewards perhaps in some epic class quests.
The Sith Warrior story progression in SWtoR included options to play as an eager driver of conflict in which you could kill your mentors and pit comrades against each other while you reap the rewards of their misfortunes. It's actually a refreshing contrast to the story of a reluctant hero who has conflict foisted upon her, and it's a potential way out of the plot device where the Gandalf or Obi-Wan in her life conveniently disappears when she needs them most.
AlannaTheFair said:OakKnower said:I'm curious, do you suggest that a character who is not considered a hero should be able to lay claim to an epic quest reward?
I'm a good girl myself, but I think that players who wish to play as villains should be able to lay claims to these rewards perhaps in some epic class quests.
The Sith Warrior story progression in SWtoR included options to play as an eager driver of conflict in which you could kill your mentors and pit comrades against each other while you reap the rewards of their misfortunes. It's actually a refreshing contrast to the story of a reluctant hero who has conflict foisted upon her, and it's a potential way out of the plot device where the Gandalf or Obi-Wan in her life conveniently disappears when she needs them most.
I understand. Thanks.
It's a good idea actually, I'm familiar with the SWtoR storylines to some degree and thought they were clever and followed the good vs bad binary. I hope such considerations are made in Pantheon. I mean, now that you mention it it seems hard to consider an Ogre Dire Lord as a hero and more like a Sith Warrior tbh.
I'm sure I will not be well liked for my comments, but this game is doomed to failure if it's 90% group content required. Simple demographics. The old school gamers are a very finite number, and they are dwindling. The newer gamers came up through World of Borecraft. They will never tolerate hardcore gaming. Oh, don't get me wrong, they think WoW is hardcore, but they just don't know any better. I realize that even some newer players will be open to the hardcore aspect of Pantheon, but I am guessing that will be a small number. So, what does that mean? Well, this game is going to need a certain number of subscriptions to make it worth running. The devs have to be able to make a living, and have enough left over to expand the game. The devs have to make it appeal to enough gamers so that it can make a profit.
I see a bunch of people posting stuff that leads me to believe they think the game can be their ideal vision of a "bamboo under the fingernails" hardcore fest and survive. It won't if the devs don't get the right mix of solo and group required content.
I recently played EQ1, and I was super frustrated at the community. You could not GET help doing epic quests. My shaman was almost done with his, but I'd have had to buy multiple chronos to bribe someone to help me do it. That's crap, and if this game is designed such that everything is hard, and the only way to get it done is to be in the biggest baddest guild, then it will have a very short life.
hackerssuck said:I'm sure I will not be well liked for my comments, but this game is doomed to failure if it's 90% group content required. Simple demographics. The old school gamers are a very finite number, and they are dwindling. The newer gamers came up through World of Borecraft. They will never tolerate hardcore gaming. Oh, don't get me wrong, they think WoW is hardcore, but they just don't know any better. I realize that even some newer players will be open to the hardcore aspect of Pantheon, but I am guessing that will be a small number. So, what does that mean? Well, this game is going to need a certain number of subscriptions to make it worth running. The devs have to be able to make a living, and have enough left over to expand the game. The devs have to make it appeal to enough gamers so that it can make a profit.
I see a bunch of people posting stuff that leads me to believe they think the game can be their ideal vision of a "bamboo under the fingernails" hardcore fest and survive. It won't if the devs don't get the right mix of solo and group required content.
I recently played EQ1, and I was super frustrated at the community. You could not GET help doing epic quests. My shaman was almost done with his, but I'd have had to buy multiple chronos to bribe someone to help me do it. That's crap, and if this game is designed such that everything is hard, and the only way to get it done is to be in the biggest baddest guild, then it will have a very short life.
I think a game can be hardcore and still be entertaining to play. Moreso even. And I'm curious where your conclusion about dwindling old-school gamers comes from?
As for EQ1; I log in to a time-locked server and play around a bit (more for reminiscence than anything else) and I rarely have issue finding a group to play with. Also, EQs hayday is long over. Things were much different back then.
Epic quest = Epic adventure.
Research should begin as a solo adventure. It should include a group effort at some point. (A guild Epic type quest should be a group to raid effort at all times.)
A solid portion of the quest should bounce between solo and group questing.
I believe there should be a raid portion to the questline also as long as it doesn't overwhelm the questline.
An Epic quest that is comprised of multiple raids tends to drag. It become more about combat and less about adventure.
I like the PVE experience in Epic quest.
OakKnower said:AlannaTheFair said:OakKnower said:I'm curious, do you suggest that a character who is not considered a hero should be able to lay claim to an epic quest reward?
I'm a good girl myself, but I think that players who wish to play as villains should be able to lay claims to these rewards perhaps in some epic class quests.
The Sith Warrior story progression in SWtoR included options to play as an eager driver of conflict in which you could kill your mentors and pit comrades against each other while you reap the rewards of their misfortunes. It's actually a refreshing contrast to the story of a reluctant hero who has conflict foisted upon her, and it's a potential way out of the plot device where the Gandalf or Obi-Wan in her life conveniently disappears when she needs them most.
I understand. Thanks.
It's a good idea actually, I'm familiar with the SWtoR storylines to some degree and thought they were clever and followed the good vs bad binary. I hope such considerations are made in Pantheon. I mean, now that you mention it it seems hard to consider an Ogre Dire Lord as a hero and more like a Sith Warrior tbh.
Even the most evil of villians sees themselves as the hero of their own story.
Your, and when I say 'your' I'm referring to everyone, epic quest can be all about you if you think about it. Solo parts? That relies wholly upon you, your skills and abilities. Parts that need a group? It is if you form the group, leading everyone safely to the area you need to go, explaining what they will face, and naturally seeing everyone out safely. Even with the raid parts it can still be all about you. You can lead the raid, form the groups, you can ensure everyone has food, drink, any needed reagents, etc. You can do a lot in the raid parts that still make the entire quest dependent upon you...if you think about it.
For me, the concept of "epic" is twofold: As a noun, an epic is a long journey or story. As an adjective, something that is epic is amazing and monumental. I'm hoping epic quests in Pantheon will be a mixture of these two, like they were in EQ1. To tie this in with the original question, I wouldn't mind seeing 15 to 25 percent of the quest soloable. The end result -- the epic weapon -- is the reward, but the quest to get it for each person (or elf, or dwarf or what have you) should be a journey for the character as well.
However, I don't think "soloable" should be interchanged with "easy." (Didn't you have to wait until you were a certain level to start your epic quest in EQ1?) There should be a few "go talk to this person to learn more" or "bring me two shrubs and a herring and I shall craft you the hilt of the Firey Avenger," but there could also be a few higher-level mobs that the player can face alone. Then the rest should be group content and a few raid drops as well. In EQ1, I got the Firey Defender (1.5 epic for paladins), and i was never in a raiding guild. (I think I needed one or two raid drops, but it wasn't like they were drops in the Plane of Time.)
A journey of this undertaking should take you out of your comfort zone, whether that's crafting for raiders or raiding for casual players. They also shouldn't be handed out like candy on Halloween. If I have to adult and don't have time to go on raids or find enough people to group with, I'm not going to complain that I can't get my epic weapon, or get it as fast as Player X. It's my journey, and I'll go at my own speed.
Another point to consider when thinking you want your epic to be a wholly solo adventure: Balance. By this I mean the entire quest, start to finish, will have to be designed not only using the skills and abilities of your class but your gear as well. Think about what that means. The better your gear, the easier any given level of content becomes. So to have the best chance of succeeding at your solo epic quest will require having the best available everything. Why? Because the designers must assume that you'll have at your disposal the best items, spells, gear, etc available at that point in the game.
What having parts of these quest require groups and raids does is make accomplishing the quest easier for everyone. It evens out the disparites in gear and items by spreading the load amongst a greater number of people.
A wholly soloable epic would not be something most classes would want, or even enjoy.
I think that epic quest lines should be exactly that, epic. They should (if accepted) start at a low level and progress through your entire journey in Pantheon. I also think it should in one form or another, they include all elements of the game, from skill trees to crafting, to specific mob slaying/interactions, to factions, rescues, raids, guilds, et al.
Having said that, imo, at no point should a player have to wait on a rare spawn. This is an artificial means to slow down the acquisition of the prize. As Pantheon is meant to be a group based, social game all about the journey, it should not be about camping a mob for an item that only appears once that mob is dead. (I actually think that rare mobs should be kept for the unexpected rather than part of something that everyone will want to undertake.)
Make epic items difficult to get, but not based on spawn rates. Required items do not have to be a reward for being in the right place at the right time (at the expense of other players). Instead of a rare mob, make it the prize at the end of a dungeon crawl that can be retrieved by anyone participating in the group from a fixed location (a cup of water from a fountain of some deity instead of waiting to kill a rare special minion of that deity). Make it only available if a player (or players) bring about specific set of circumstances to physically spawn the mob required (e.g. The player must retrieve a spell of incantation and perform it at a specific point when there is a full moon and the player has the appropriate skill. Each location could be individual to that character, so there is no queue generated. The mob is guaranteed to spawn (unless the spell goes wrong), if the player or party survive the engagement, then the prize is won. No waiting on spawns).
It’s all about the journey there, not the waiting around for something to happen.
But to the main point of this thread, solo parts. There has to be solo portions to epic quests. These should be about the acquisition of lore, skills and specific plot items which point the way or prepare the player for the next major portion of the quest which should be multi player based.
Logedogg: I have always thought of an epic as the uber elite weapon and feel only the top tier raiding guilds should get them...
I couldn’t disagree more. Epic means a marathon, heroic, a larger than life undertaking. An individual is just as likely to complete an epic journey through the world as a guild specialising in raiding specific high reward content.
Why should raiding be treated differently to that person who progressed in the main body of the game? I would argue that a player going through the world and exploring and experiencing the game as the developers have indicated that it should be experienced, is more worthy of “earning” an epic weapon item as opposed to a players that run raids over and over.
Kayo: Class quests should be solo, thats about it.
Class quests: yes, epic quests: no. The epic quest lines should include everything that the game can deliver.
Khuul99: I do agree though, the epic rewards need to somehow be able to scale with gear progression
I think I agree with this to a point. But the problem is that it can make general game drops less significant. I don’t think an epic item should be best in slot for a level until nearing the end game. Maybe just having a partially complete epic item should be a little better than the average item of that level, but also imbues a buff of some kind while it is in the player’s inventory so that it can be swapped out and is still useful. I would also like to see more than just epic weapons, but epic equipment and utilities too. Each requiring significant time, effort, exploration and lore attainment.
Vandraad: Another point to consider when thinking you want your epic to be a wholly solo adventure: Balance. … A wholly soloable epic would not be something most classes would want, or even enjoy.
I agree. Also the fact that this game is geared and meant to be played in a social way, why would you introduce a major item that is composed of completely solo-able content. Its counterintuitive to the philosophy of the game. I have no problem with solo parts, but in a social game, epic items should not be a solo-able quest line. Class quests, to some degree, but not epic quests.
The constraint that wholly defines how the epic will be be designed is given by just deciding how rare do you want it to be .
If you want it to be not more than 10 - 15 % of the players during the first year of the game then you have only 2 solutions (which can be mixed) .
1) You make some of the components very rare spawns or drops . By rare I mean 24 hour spawn cycle or even more - why not 1 week . This is what EQ did (already given example of static item spawns for enchanter epics) and it was horrible . People simply gave up because there was nothing epic, difficult or challenging in staring at an empty screen for days, weeks , months while being forbidden to go afk or do anything else more fun during this time . The target of rarity can be reached in that way but at what price ?
2) You make some of the components drop (not always but with a reasonable probability) from the highest level raid bosses (Innoruuk, Cazic ...) . As the hardcore rading guilds represent around 5%-10% of the MMORPGs population, every member of these guilds will have his epic and outside of them almost nobody will have some . Rarity target reached again . The players outside of raiding guilds will eventually be able to get their epic MUCH later when the raiding guilds have moved to new and more rewarding targets .
If you abandon 1) and 2) then the epic will NOT be rare (e.g easily 50% or more of the players will have it) . It is really as simple as that .
Could always tie it to in-game achievements, and once you reach a certain number of achievements, you're offered basic class quests. (solo-able 100%)
Later, you reach another achievement goal, and you're offered heroic quests (grouping required at some points)
Again, you reach yet another achievement milestone and you're offered epic quests ( which have a raid component required, and grouping also required for the majority of steps/tasks )
Of course, that requires achievements per class, but that could be fun and challenging.
chenzeme said:
Kayo: Class quests should be solo, thats about it.
Class quests: yes, epic quests: no. The epic quest lines should include everything that the game can deliver.
Probably mean the same but just thought I should point out "epic quest" can mean many things. That quest I linked was considered "epic" and it was tough as nails to do. IIRC some of the more difficult parts HAD to be solo'd.
Deadshade said:The constraint that wholly defines how the epic will be be designed is given by just deciding how rare do you want it to be .
If you want it to be not more than 10 - 15 % of the players during the first year of the game then you have only 2 solutions (which can be mixed) .
1) You make some of the components very rare spawns or drops . By rare I mean 24 hour spawn cycle or even more - why not 1 week . This is what EQ did (already given example of static item spawns for enchanter epics) and it was horrible . People simply gave up because there was nothing epic, difficult or challenging in staring at an empty screen for days, weeks , months while being forbidden to go afk or do anything else more fun during this time . The target of rarity can be reached in that way but at what price ?
2) You make some of the components drop (not always but with a reasonable probability) from the highest level raid bosses (Innoruuk, Cazic ...) . As the hardcore rading guilds represent around 5%-10% of the MMORPGs population, every member of these guilds will have his epic and outside of them almost nobody will have some . Rarity target reached again . The players outside of raiding guilds will eventually be able to get their epic MUCH later when the raiding guilds have moved to new and more rewarding targets .
If you abandon 1) and 2) then the epic will NOT be rare (e.g easily 50% or more of the players will have it) . It is really as simple as that .
This is why I like the idea of using a very challenging solo fight as the 'gate' for getting your epic. It in some ways has the same effect as (2) on your list, in so much as people will probably be required to gear up for a while before they're strong enough to beat the encounter, but it removes the need to get that one single rare item off of the hard raid boss that 3 other people are also waiting in line for. Here's an example of what I was thinking:
A hypothetical Shaman Epic Quest:
Early quest: It could start early on, like in the mid level range--you get introduced to the quest and can start doing some solo and group-based tasked related to the quest's story arc.
Mid quest: Towards end game you have a few raid targets mixed in. You don't need to wait for the related drops, anything you need from the targets is granted to you, provided your raid is capable of beating the target.
Near end solo encounter: This is the potential 'gate' to prevent the epic from being something that's too easy to get and from becoming too common. Say the shaman recieved his 'weapon' from the end of the last raid step in the 'Mid quest' part of the story arc, but it hadn't been spiritually attuned to him so it wasn't at it's true strength. In order to become one with his/her new weapon he would need to gather a bunch of reagents to concoct a potion (here we have use of the alchemy skill, a trademark of the shaman class) that will put them in a dream state where they can confront an inner demon of some kind and, by doing so, earn the bond with their weapon. This 'battle with the inner demon' would need to be accomplished entirely solo, and could then be balanced such that someone would need a considerable amount of high-end gear to stand a chance of succeeding. If they fail, they need to go gather the reagents for another potion, which should take a fair amount of time, but not require another raid.
End quest: I think a final raid step should be required, mainly because I think a raid force should be present to help celebrate completing these quests. Again, I think only a win should be required here.
Some of the things I like about this:
-- No artificial gates in the form of 'rare drops' from high-end raid bosses. People won't get hung up on their quests at a point where there's nothing they can to but wait... and wait...
-- It leaves some wiggle room for skilled players to shine. That person who really knows his/her class may be able to figure out and beat that solo encounter faster and with less high-end gear than someone who doesn't play their class as well.
Elrandir said:This is why I like the idea of using a very challenging solo fight as the 'gate' for getting your epic. It in some ways has the same effect as (2) on your list, in so much as people will probably be required to gear up for a while before they're strong enough to beat the encounter, but it removes the need to get that one single rare item off of the hard raid boss that 3 other people are also waiting in line for. Here's an example of what I was thinking:
A hypothetical Shaman Epic Quest:
Early quest: It could start early on, like in the mid level range--you get introduced to the quest and can start doing some solo and group-based tasked related to the quest's story arc.
Mid quest: Towards end game you have a few raid targets mixed in. You don't need to wait for the related drops, anything you need from the targets is granted to you, provided your raid is capable of beating the target.
Near end solo encounter: This is the potential 'gate' to prevent the epic from being something that's too easy to get and from becoming too common. Say the shaman recieved his 'weapon' from the end of the last raid step in the 'Mid quest' part of the story arc, but it hadn't been spiritually attuned to him so it wasn't at it's true strength. In order to become one with his/her new weapon he would need to gather a bunch of reagents to concoct a potion (here we have use of the alchemy skill, a trademark of the shaman class) that will put them in a dream state where they can confront an inner demon of some kind and, by doing so, earn the bond with their weapon. This 'battle with the inner demon' would need to be accomplished entirely solo, and could then be balanced such that someone would need a considerable amount of high-end gear to stand a chance of succeeding. If they fail, they need to go gather the reagents for another potion, which should take a fair amount of time, but not require another raid.
End quest: I think a final raid step should be required, mainly because I think a raid force should be present to help celebrate completing these quests. Again, I think only a win should be required here.
I like your thought process here! It has everything an epic quest should contain from beginning to end, and I really like your image of a raid force being there to celebrate when you've finished.
Elrandir said:
This is why I like the idea of using a very challenging solo fight as the 'gate' for getting your epic. It in some ways has the same effect as (2) on your list, in so much as people will probably be required to gear up for a while before they're strong enough to beat the encounter, but it removes the need to get that one single rare item off of the hard raid boss that 3 other people are also waiting in line for.
This is precisely the problem at the core of an epic which is wanted to be rare . What is "challenging" in an MMORPG ?
Running 100 m in 10" is challenging and a huge majority of people won't reach this target regardless how long and how hard they train .
Solving the Navier Stokes equations is challenging and sofar nobody on Earth did it regardless how hard and long they tried .
Nothing such in a solo fight in an MMORPG . To win it means basically to only find out by trial and error (or to read it on the Net what is much faster) what movements, spells, weapons and armour you need and then click a few buttons during a few minutes . Everybody can do that .
You consider that the necessity to have some minimal set of armour would define the "challenge" .
But then what would be challenging in getting these pieces of armour ?
Either everybody can get them and then (almost) everybody will have his epic .
Or only a few can get them and we are back to the time sink/rare drop way of my points 1) and 2) . There are no other ways because all actions and tasks in MMORPGs are intrinsically very simple so that a "challenge" or a "difficulty" can only be simulated as something that takes an unholy amount of time .
The selection which guarantees rarity is then always done either by the ability to invest much "boring" time (rare spawns/drops) or by belonging to a group whose members have the ability to invest much "boring" time (hardcore raiding guilds) .
Note that the latter actually implies the former :)
Even if I like your proposal because I am sure that I would have my epic, be very sure that the epic wouldn't be rare in this case.
IMHO, the epic should be attainable by everyone. I really dont see the point of time sinks for rare spawns. Everyone who pays for the game is by definition entitled to have a fair crack at every part of the game. Just because it is "epic" shouldnt mean that it is nessassarily rare, just very difficult to get. The point of the epic is to show other players that you are skillful in all areas of gameplay, not that you can sit on your butt and wait for a spawn and be the first to hit the mob.
I think if the epic is tied to your game progression in all areas (solo and group skills, combat skills, crafting, exploration and trading skills, and any other new element that the game brings in) that this in itself will prove a difficult challenge that will cause people to put in significant time and effort into the game without the need to throw in artificial time sinks for rare spawns. Time spent in solo and social settings, to me, are a much better way of getting players involved in the game and its lore than camping a spawn point. Oh! and dont get me started on who has the "right" to the mob when it spawns. This mechanic just brings in levels of frustation and kill stealing that a social game can do without).
Rare spawns for such a sought after player reward is detrimental to how the majority of players want to play a game. It is also detrimental to how the developers are saying they want the game to be played. They want people trampling over hill and dale, looking for stuff. Not sitting on a hillock, wasting time waiting for god knows how long. Seriously, is that a good way to allow games to be played? Personally, I dont want to be in a queue, waiting for days on end to have a crack at a spawn. I want to be playing in a meaningful way. Rare spawns for unexpected encounters; great! Rare spawns for quest progression, big pain in the butt that I and (I know) others hate. PLEASE, dont have rare spawns for epics. There is really no need.