"What truly makes an item epic isn't the stats so much as scarcity."
Which raises the issue of whether an "epic" item should be very rare, very hard to get or very difficult to get. Or two or three of these things.
Very rare might simply mean extremely low drop rates. The player might need to do 10 things, each of which not too difficult, each of which not too time consuming, but each of which has a tiny chance of success.
Very hard to get might be something that is guaranteed if you do every part of the quest line but maybe that takes 100 hours.
Very difficult might be something that requires soloing 5 bosses, completing 3 dungeons and doing one raid - each of which is extremely challenging even for well developed characters with very good gear.
The first two of those gate the item behind what most people would call tedious grinding. The third limits the item, using kemadin's term, to the elite players or those getting a lot of help from elite players.
I suspect that some of us would object to any of these forms of gating - yet with no gating the item is hardly epic, is it?
I don't get the people who hate the idea of soloable portions of an epic quest. Even if you need a raid drop the turnin is going to be a solo lore dump. The majority of steps should be solo. Soloing is not a major factor for difficulty but for good story telling. The lore and the exploration of the world are important. I want to meet various masters of my class, even the hermits, and seek out remote ruins. I want factions to come into play where we need recognition to gain NPCs trust. The epic quest should world spanning, a ton of it would be solo content. Unless the epic quest is entirely at max level large portions of group content would turn solo anyways.
In terms of difficulty, an epic quest needs to be sufficiently difficult, but that is a scale on its own. If VR wants every epic quest to require 10 rare raids the epic quest would still be largely solo to make it any good of story telling. Its not like Wally the Wizard will ask every wizard they meet to come back when they have all the required raid drops.
I want there to be so much solo content people simply following guides and skipping lore think it's tedious.
Raid content should be limited to the last few steps, and sequential. Not needing to form 5 different raids for seperate sections. Refering to triggered raid content. Raid drop loot is more akin to group content, especially if able to MQ or purchase. The story sections need to be mostly solo, groups and raids get very tedious following around 1 person from point to point for individual encounters.
And please, no uber rare 1 in 10 raids drops 1 piece on a weekly respawn when a guild needs 10 to satisfy all the players, and has to fight over spawns. Rare is good, near unique is just not fun except for the lucky bastard that wins it.
Avalord said:It wouldn't or shouldn't be an EPIC if a lot of it is soloable. A mix of solo (including crafting), group (1 group and 2 two group content), and raid would be ideal. I believe the below breakout would be best.
Solo - 25%
Group - 50%
Raid - 25%
I like the idea of a mix similar this, but I would "personally" like to see a ratio more akin to:
Solo - 20-40%: I want to read dialogue at my own pace (especially as a slow reader), with as little distractions as possible. Crafting should be required to some extent for all epic quests.
Goup - 40-70%: A majority of the content should be items obtained from group content NPC drops or be items acquired from/interacted with in areas that require a well formed group to get to.
Raid - 1-10%: Every epic quest should require at least one raid "encounter", but absolutely NO raid "grinding" for rare/random/untradeable dropped items.
There were some Epic quests in EQ that required 1-5% raid content, 30% group content and the rest solo (i.e. DRU), while others required 80%+ raid and the rest group, with 1% solo (Even some SHD item "turn ins" required multiple groups... it was so bullshit, because you couldn't even enjoy reading the dialogue because everyone is giving their time worrying about buffs wearing off, healing rotations (for a tank other than you because you can't even tank your own quest NPC) preparing to not die so you don't lose several months of everyone else wasting their time helping you...) - EQ lost a lot of their base due to the excessively punishing RNG coupled with requiring excessive commitment from others to assist "some" while receiving nothing in return, which subconciously generates resentment toward specific classes for even existing - and the players can absolutely pikc up on that projected negative energy.
Some will argue that relying on the community to do an epic quest is what makes it "epic", but I would argue that there can be numberous quests that can require more community contributions or raid content grinding, that have less "class" specific criteria. (WoW did this with some of their iconic weapons, that were contested, iconic and rare, but not absolutely critical to your gameplay (Anathema/Benediction, Windfury, Warglaives, etc) - which the epic should be critical to your class, and it should be indicative of completing YOUR class' pinnacle quest... not indicative of raid (i.e. other people's) achievments).
If I were to compare difficulty, I would say that the Coladin Ring (#1-10) quest "difficulty" should be "comparable" to the PRotF class Epic quest "difficulty". Several months of solo content (crafting/faction grinding/dialogue/turn ins/etc), a few weeks of group content, several hours of multi-group content, and a raid encounter or two. It should be difficult enough to require significant effort from the individual, some organizing for a few group runs through some specific content and some drops from dungeon bosses, maybe a drop from a raid boss, and a raid encounter specific to the class quest (that is unique for every class). No class should be able to complete their epic quest without a raid encounter, but they should also be something that can be coordinated server wide (that doesn't require a guild) and that people are willing to help with because one day they will want their epic (and perhaps incentivize people that already have their epics with a chance to receive some clicky effect based on the epic quest being completed, like a clicky that gives a glowing halo effect for helping with the cleric epic, or a bloody footprint effect for helping a Dire Lord, if you are flagged as already having your epic).
I'll be incredibly disappointed if all of the best written/epic quests in the game require raiding at the end to complete. It is important to remember only a small proportion of the player base actually raid.
I don't even like the idea of a "epic" weapon, it becomes a limiting factor and a long term design issue.
The content will then become "tuned" to either having the weapons available or not depending on how hard it is to obtain. This will become a bigger issue moving forward once there added.. content becomes either trivial or overly hard based on how future encounters are tuned.
This also results in a seperation of the player base and those that can and can not obtain such a item. At the same time also removing various viable different options for weapons from a item design point of view. IE if that Epic is not still BIS even in the next expansion , it's not really that epic is it ?
This is only scratching the surface of issues , lets not even consider adding a class focus ability or even make it something that can be considered as a requirement (cleric epic anyone?)
If we are going to have epic questlines , those questlines need to have choice options for a example 10 different "epic" quests that anyone can do with each quest having multiple rewards to pick from not just a single class based questlines. Why not a Epic Shield choice for warriors , epic off hand for mages in one quest chain ? The next "epic" quest might have a helm option and something else ?
Also even calling them a epic questline is bad design , there needs to be a lot of long quest chains in the game. This should be a standard for each expansion not the exception.
Thinking about this more I still think it should be solo/group with a raid upgrade but maybe something more like the class quests in FF14 where you follow a class story from a very low level to 50 and get the first part will call it the epic than with raiding you get the upgraded. even if its just a 5% stats and group buff become AOE or raid. heck even make it kill every raid encounter make them all drop a turn in item one per person.
I am not saying make it Easy I want it to be a sign hey look at that Bard they have there epic that means they have explored most of the world have killed many of the bosses.
If they add expansions add to the story lore in the new expansion complete the dungeons explore the new found land get an upgrade complete the new raids get that upgrade.
Edit to add does not have to be a weapon could be almost anything but should feel class defining and worth the Journey.
I will echo some sentiments and just put my own words to it as well.
When it comes to epic quests, there should be some parts that you personally handle. Say as a summoner, your quest starts in a standard overworld dungeon in an offwing. This place has some history of ancient rites for bringing creatures to Terminus. From there an old book is found and it outlines components used to piece together a scepter powerful enough to infuse creatures. The base you get from trading with blacksmith, one of the gems from a jewelcrafter. The top is rumored to be held by the skar, you go there and find a trashpile with a paper in it and it leads you on a cryptic hunt to find where this top is located. After that, you have a two seperate raids for two other gem stones for the scepter and another dungeon to slay an elder beast for the handle.
Lots of variety. You need other players help but only half the quest is done in dungeons while the other is world traveling and social interaction. But more importantly it's apart of the world, tells a story and has substance. Yes, the fabled Scepter of Guise should be 1 of a kind, but it's an MMO and you have to suspend some disbelief for people to sharee rare items in their inventory.
I very much hope epic quests are optional and not defacto required. I don't like the idea of them offering a class-defining uber item as a reward because then doing it becomes necessary and everyone of the same class will have that item.
I will only do it if it's interesting to me and I can do it with a group. I really can't stand doing solo content (besides general exploration).
I think "raid" is not a bad word and should be part of an epic. With the un-selfish realization that it may not occur on your schedule, but you can keep asking- outloud- or in a general chat advertising for help. Someone mentioned the coldain ring war, likewise with the shawl the end event needed a multi group effort. For the "Ring war" at first I remember being scared whenever it was announced and running to safety and complaining how uberguild was "hogging" the zone. Untill I got asked to help in one, by the same uberguild and it was a blast. doing it again I became learn-ed in the event and confident. Then whenever someone unrelated and unknown advertized for help with the "ring war" I jumped to help, often travelling far to do so and convincing the group to go with me for just a little while and after the event also creating "converts".
In fact, I am sure such cries for help may organically create some social structures like "Planar Campaign"s or "instant Army"s where groups of individuals or pieces of various guilds come together for the sole purpose of aiding the one, and you build up an unspoken mutual aid. It goes beyond loot, loot is not the goal.
Manouk said:I think "raid" is not a bad word and should be part of an epic. With the un-selfish realization that it may not occur on your schedule, but you can keep asking- outloud- or in a general chat advertising for help. Someone mentioned the coldain ring war, likewise with the shawl the end event needed a multi group effort. For the "Ring war" at first I remember being scared whenever it was announced and running to safety and complaining how uberguild was "hogging" the zone. Untill I got asked to help in one, by the same uberguild and it was a blast. doing it again I became learn-ed in the event and confident. Then whenever someone unrelated and unknown advertized for help with the "ring war" I jumped to help, often travelling far to do so and convincing the group to go with me for just a little while and after the event also creating "converts".
In fact, I am sure such cries for help may organically create some social structures like "Planar Campaign"s or "instant Army"s where groups of individuals or pieces of various guilds come together for the sole purpose of aiding the one, and you build up an unspoken mutual aid. It goes beyond loot, loot is not the goal.
I truly hope this is the kind of community the game will have
I think it should vary by class somewhat. Too much balance is for competative games and spoils the fun pf co-op or solo games (as long as everyone has a USP in co-op)
In general (but with exceptions, as per above note):
The strory and any 'choices' should be told solo in order to allow players to read at leisure
There should be at least one challenging solo element
There should be a good chunk of tasks that require a partner or a group
There should be at least one element that requires a lot of people but isnt a raid (e.g. triggering and finding a random position NPC)
There should be at least one elemet that requires a high trade skill (from self or other).
There should be at least one raid (near the culmination)
The quest should give stepped / other reward on the way to the final epic.
The final epic should have something unique for the class as well as any combat stats,which will mean it always has a use (even if the use eventually becomes niche). Good example was EQ ranger epic with slow. Yes the DPS was outclassed by other things, but for a long time it was one of the few ways to slow MOBS without a shaman / chanter.
So I've been missing from these forums for awhile. Work and RL commitments intrude. My 2 coppers worth regarding Epics entails a little bit of my own journey to get Swiftwind & Earthcaller (yes, the Ranger epics).
I started EQ in end 1999 and knew nothing about guilds and also nothing about the ranger class but was lucky enough to have met another ranger while in SK who was working on his epic and told me about it. Thus began my journey to those 2 swords. And by my journey I mean, mine and mine alone, i.e. solo. The thinking I had behind it was that this was supposed to be my journey or quest to own a pair of legendary swords and so it should be my choice whether or not I chose to go it alone or with a group.
It took me 3 years to get my hands on those swords and along the way certain things occurred to me.
1. Why did I actually need to go through so many raids ? I agree completely that the journey should be tough but remember back in those days, raids were not comprised of 4 or 6 or 12 person teams. They were potentially comprised of 100s of people. Epic 2.0 had raids of up to 100 people at any one time. Imagine the sacrifice others had to go through with their real lives just for this. This is a game, people are supposed to have fun playing it and not have to rearrange their real lives around it. At one point in my Epic 1.0 journey, I couldn't get enough people together for a group fight so I ended up paying for a hit team to help me take down the mini-boss; hardly very heroic.
For those hardcore raiders, please bear in mind that you may love raiding but doing it takes time which not many people may have. It hardly seems fair to those that they can't get their epics completed simply because they have real life issues that come first. I was a hardcore raider too, longest raid was to get keyed for the planes when it came out. 14 hours because halfway through there was a server reset announcement so we had to either push through or lose everything. Total number of raiders - minimum 700 in that 14 hour session. I also hadone of the highest dkp in my guild and would have people pm me, begging me not to bid on items that they desperately wanted because they couldn't make the next raid schedule. This, to say the least, is not fun.
2. Resources/Materials requirements. This was fine in EQ but not so much in GW2 where the repetition to collect resources was so much that when i hit part 2 and it was a repeat of part 1, I abandoned the whole thing entirely. Utterly completely mind numbingly boring.
To the devs, make the epic questline memorable; that's all that's required. I can't speak for anyone else but I would remember an epic questline with a great storyline behind it rather than "ok for this little gem part you need to get together a 24 person raid and go kill that boss". For those saying "too bad, if you can't do raids then you don't get the epic", it hardly makes sense for the developers to deliberately alienate a portion of their customer base in this manner. One may not be able to please everyone but one should at least make the attempt to first.
In the end, which would be more memorable, Frodo and Sam's journey to the heart of darkness alone or the 2 of them facing down the armies at the gates with everyone else. I know which I would prefer.
I agree entirely with Azareal.
While there are exceptions - raids often involve one of two things - neither of which is enjoyable for most of us.
1. We are "carried" by other players. We tag along acting as if we are contributing but the people that know the raid and have very good gear already contribute the great bulk of the damage and healing and do the tanking. The result is the same whatever we do - even if the raid lets us afk on "follow" for the entire raid. We participate for the raid credit or the chance of loot but essentially waste 2 hours plus with the main challenge we face keeping up with the mass of other players.
2. Our contribution is actually needed. Often because we are one of the people experience with the raid and well geared who is doing the carrying for others. In which case we probably already have completed the epic so ignore this for the purpose of this topic. More on-point if we still need the epic, as likely as not we are more poorly geared than most and may not know the raid. So we face the typical raid "Catch 22". We do the raid because we need the gear but we cannot contribute as much as others because we do not *have* the gear.
This generally negative view of raids does not apply to what "raid guilds" typically do. Where people work as an experienced team and learn the raid - and the guild has procedures to get people geared up at least to the point of having gear good enough to contribute something useful. My comments are more applicable to PUG raids and to raids done not for their own sake but to accomplish a "one time per character" goal like keying or epic quest credit.
Initially the Epic should be epic and very hard to get. That means a good mix of solo content, group content and raid content. It should take a long time to get and be very rare in the world.
After a few years with power creep and expansions, then the epic will be easier. Most content will be soloable, eventually even the raid piece.