I assume its to early to get feedback from kilsin or the rest of the VR team. so up for debate (little enlightenment would be nice though *wink wink* kilsin)
open world contest raid mobs (and group named) to me group mobs are meh ok just make then open contested, but what do you guys think about raid mobs? i remember the rush in eq1 (pretty much everything and eq2) trying to gather enough people and hurry to a mob, only to have it taken before we got there. I personally am kinda split, kudo's to the guilds that had it together enough to form and move that quickly, however it does pose a dilema for guilds to even try said mob because once you get a mob down usually its on lockdown and other usually dont even get a chance to attempt it.. some games made a true contested and a contested that locked to everyone who killed it within an X amount of time. whats your thoughts?
Thinking of one or more world bosses "wandering" around the open world is for me a joyful thought.
And I really mean world bosses, were you need even more than one full raid to maybe get them down.
Maybe you even need another raid which protects the players fighting the world boss from the PvP attacks of other players who want to get the boss down on their own.
They should appear on non regular base (not to often) or the players should be able to summon them, but this should be very hard to achieve.
In my opinion they don't need to drop an extra strong loot, maybe just something that looks cool and is something special.
There should be a contest to discover the boss spawn or to summon it. The guilds or raid groups who want to take such a boss down should have to invest a lot of time an ressources in this task.
Every single mob should be contested. Competition should be nurtured. That is what made EQ so fun and the resulting PvP was pure savagery. Back on Tallon Zek in 03, I had a front row seat to Pandemonium vs Discordia vs Indignation.
Bottlenecks in PvP are good. Can vary spawn-points and spawn-times to combat the "lock down" effect on regular servers. Stormfeather in was a good example of this.
pvp kills pve :/ i suppose it doesnt have to, it just has in every game i ever played. i suppose in vanguard not so much, but then there was only the pvp server, and few resources to have the constant 'balancing' nerfs to which pvp seems inevitably to lead.
what i have seen happen, in vanguard, is the power guilds work together to schedule mobs, since they could wipe each other endlessly, or at least crash 2/3 of everyone to desktop. instead they would only mess with guilds that would take longer to reorganize than they would or didn't know how to force crash them back. maybe they would fight for the first kill if there is a 'discovery' system, but after that, why pvp with 2 other guilds for 2 hours for a 1 in 3 chance to fight a mob on monday, if you can get the kill easily and quickly on tuesday? not to mention, if the mob is difficult then with even 2 members of another guild jumping you would have no chance.
alephen said:...why pvp with 2 other guilds for 2 hours for a 1 in 3 chance to fight a mob on monday, if you can get the kill easily and quickly on tuesday?
Because it's more fun that way. :)
Odd. No one remembers camping contested raids for their epic weapons? Mobs with a 2 week spawn rate needed for a quest? Guilds who would deliberately &^%$block the kill so you or in fact ANYONE else on the server could advance in those quests? Interesting... that was the worst thing about EQ. I think it would be OK to have contested raids etc. with the sole caveat of ensuring that THOSE mobs could never - EVER - be the target of ANY quest. If you wanted tham to be the target in a quest then I would say create a specific instance with an exact duplicate of the mob.
alephen said:maybe they would fight for the first kill if there is a 'discovery' system, but after that, why pvp with 2 other guilds for 2 hours for a 1 in 3 chance to fight a mob on monday, if you can get the kill easily and quickly on tuesday? not to mention, if the mob is difficult then with even 2 members of another guild jumping you would have no chance.
This will be propably the case when you have raid lockouts and fast respawn timers. But without this things there will be strong competition and the game will be called: Pantheon: Camping of the fallen. And the consequence will be, that many many players will never be able to kill a (quest) mob. Because it is already killed when they come back from work.
Greetings
Nephretiti said:Odd. No one remembers camping contested raids for their epic weapons? Mobs with a 2 week spawn rate needed for a quest? Guilds who would deliberately &^%$block the kill so you or in fact ANYONE else on the server could advance in those quests? Interesting... that was the worst thing about EQ. I think it would be OK to have contested raids etc. with the sole caveat of ensuring that THOSE mobs could never - EVER - be the target of ANY quest. If you wanted tham to be the target in a quest then I would say create a specific instance with an exact duplicate of the mob.
Good grief, you know suggesting both non-contested content and instancing in particular in one post will have some folk frothing at the mouth and calling for your blood right? hehe
*I* remember camping contested epic mobs for days on end only to have a guild swoop in when it spawned before my friends in a smaller group were ready and, yes, I have heard others complain of being blocked from content for weeks on end until uber guild number one decided others were allowed to progress.
I'm sure I read a dev say somewhere that there would be triggered instances for things like epic bosses - maybe that's wishful thinking.
When it got to the bat-phoning and poop-socking and hanging around for hours on end for the hope of a chance of beating another guild to the punch is when I stopped playing EQ original and, recently, EQ P99. I fail to see how that's fun.
disposalist said:Nephretiti said:Odd. No one remembers camping contested raids for their epic weapons? Mobs with a 2 week spawn rate needed for a quest? Guilds who would deliberately &^%$block the kill so you or in fact ANYONE else on the server could advance in those quests? Interesting... that was the worst thing about EQ. I think it would be OK to have contested raids etc. with the sole caveat of ensuring that THOSE mobs could never - EVER - be the target of ANY quest. If you wanted tham to be the target in a quest then I would say create a specific instance with an exact duplicate of the mob.Good grief, you know suggesting both non-contested content and instancing in particular in one post will have some folk frothing at the mouth and calling for your blood right? hehe
*I* remember camping contested epic mobs for days on end only to have a guild swoop in when it spawned before my friends in a smaller group were ready and, yes, I have heard others complain of being blocked from content for weeks on end until uber guild number one decided others were allowed to progress.
I'm sure I read a dev say somewhere that there would be triggered instances for things like epic bosses - maybe that's wishful thinking.
When it got to the bat-phoning and poop-socking and hanging around for hours on end for the hope of a chance of beating another guild to the punch is when I stopped playing EQ original and, recently, EQ P99. I fail to see how that's fun.
I remember those things as well. I remember doing everything in my power to position myself so that if some miracle of a chance were to present itself I would be there to complete my epic. Guess what. The miracle happened. I got that epic, and because it was so unlikely that it would ever happen it was sooooo sweet that it did. It's perhaps the single all-time most fond memory in any game I've ever played.
You dont create that kind of memory from something everyone knows they will complete if they simply put in time. There needs to be those things in the game that are nigh unreachable to build a sense of awe in the game world. Otherwise it's just whack-a-mole.
[edit] And for clarity, I got that epic on one of multiple max-level characters in EQ, but I sure as hell positioned them to get it done on those others as well. And I never considered the fact that it didnt happen a failure, or a fault of the game any more so than that I didnt get to kill the Sleeper. I dont begrudge a system that refuses to hand out the best rewards as if it were a gumball machine.
Well said Feyshtey!
This topic has been heavily discussed on these forums, but I'll repost my thoughts on the matter of contested raid content.
Contested raid content is imperative if Pantheon is to recapture the sense of accomplishment and exclusivity that made EverQuest so addictive and enjoyable. There are a few things I would have in place to prevent monopolizing raid content.
Those 4 things would keep rare mobs more highly sought after and provide casual guilds with opportunities to defeat them. Slower progression and faster content development are important for both spreading out the population, and pushing top end guilds away from older content.
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/2943/my-only-raid-concern/view/post_id/43467
You could also create a system that allows for a triggered spawn of the raid mob, but make it so that it has no drop table. Only the specific quest progression for the person that triggered the spawn is achievable. That way the guilds farming gear for their twinks cant block everyone from every quest. Place a time-out on the trigger as well so that a guild cant plan a 12 hour epic-your-twink day and sit there and pop the thing all day long, as a for instance. Further limit the quests that can trigger the mob. I'd say generally speaking class-defining epics are a go, but perhaps some other extreme examples are not. Yelinak's head for the Gauntlet's of Dragon Slaying quest comes to mind. This was a really highly saught after item, but not a class-defining item.
Something described above still requires a person to collect 40 or so of his best friends willing to cooperate on what in all likelyhood will be a multi-hour ordeal, and do so with no personal gain. So it's not going to create an epic vending machine. But it prevents the malicious blocking of specific content. Used liberally (say limited solely to epics) it could be a decent compromise?
I loved EQ because it was hard, brutal, humbling and unforgiving. It was not a vending machine. The harder it was to attain my goal, the more gratifying it was.
On non-PvP servers you can create a system and have lockouts and taking turns or whatever.
On the PvP server, let us fight it out. Pit us against eachother. PvE is the arms race that determines PvP success. I hope that in Pantheon, as it was in EQ1, PvP will be the great motivator to advance in PvE.
Greattaste said:I loved EQ because it was hard, brutal, humbling and unforgiving. It was not a vending machine. The harder it was to attain my goal, the more gratifying it was.
On non-PvP servers you can create a system and have lockouts and taking turns or whatever.
On the PvP server, let us fight it out. Pit us against eachother. PvE is the arms race that determines PvP success. I hope that in Pantheon, as it was in EQ1, PvP will be the great motivator to advance in PvE.
In EQ the mechanics and the monsters were hard, there was no need for the players to be nasty as an orc.
Certainly different rules servers would be an answer. I would be only too happy to have the folk that see 'beating' other real people to be the best challenge a game can give be on another server.
It's a bit of a shame as I kind of like the danger of entering a contested zone, but in the past I know that always comes with ganking and griefing, so, yeah PvE server for me, PvP server for you. Everyone's happy?
Trouble is, the bad behaviour I've seen in contested areas has all been on PvE servers...
Feyshtey said:disposalist said:Nephretiti said:Odd. No one remembers camping contested raids for their epic weapons? Mobs with a 2 week spawn rate needed for a quest? Guilds who would deliberately &^%$block the kill so you or in fact ANYONE else on the server could advance in those quests? Interesting... that was the worst thing about EQ. I think it would be OK to have contested raids etc. with the sole caveat of ensuring that THOSE mobs could never - EVER - be the target of ANY quest. If you wanted tham to be the target in a quest then I would say create a specific instance with an exact duplicate of the mob.Good grief, you know suggesting both non-contested content and instancing in particular in one post will have some folk frothing at the mouth and calling for your blood right? hehe
*I* remember camping contested epic mobs for days on end only to have a guild swoop in when it spawned before my friends in a smaller group were ready and, yes, I have heard others complain of being blocked from content for weeks on end until uber guild number one decided others were allowed to progress.
I'm sure I read a dev say somewhere that there would be triggered instances for things like epic bosses - maybe that's wishful thinking.
When it got to the bat-phoning and poop-socking and hanging around for hours on end for the hope of a chance of beating another guild to the punch is when I stopped playing EQ original and, recently, EQ P99. I fail to see how that's fun.
I remember those things as well. I remember doing everything in my power to position myself so that if some miracle of a chance were to present itself I would be there to complete my epic. Guess what. The miracle happened. I got that epic, and because it was so unlikely that it would ever happen it was sooooo sweet that it did. It's perhaps the single all-time most fond memory in any game I've ever played.
You dont create that kind of memory from something everyone knows they will complete if they simply put in time. There needs to be those things in the game that are nigh unreachable to build a sense of awe in the game world. Otherwise it's just whack-a-mole.
[edit] And for clarity, I got that epic on one of multiple max-level characters in EQ, but I sure as hell positioned them to get it done on those others as well. And I never considered the fact that it didnt happen a failure, or a fault of the game any more so than that I didnt get to kill the Sleeper. I dont begrudge a system that refuses to hand out the best rewards as if it were a gumball machine.
I did too, but I *prefer* the difficulty to be from the fictional monsters I'm fighting rather than the real people that stopped me doing it. Those epic mobs were already nigh unreachable because they required a very well equipped, prepared and coordinated raid force to complete the encounter and even then they would need to be lucky. For the guild that were doing it for the 100th time getting more and more powerful every time and doing it with the intention of stopping every other guild/person from being as powerful because to their leaders it was some massive peeing contest, it was barely a chore. I was actually in one of those guilds for a while once and I remember asking why we didn't have a calendar to share the raiding with other guilds. My question was not warmly welcomed.
Now I know some folk enjoy that sort of player vs player conflict. They get bored with the raids, because they are no longer challenging to their uber-guild, so the 'game' now comes from 'beating' other guilds. There are many games that support and encourage it.
Me, I hope Pantheon works on the PvE, the co-op and on avoiding the griefing and other conflict that is way too much like RL nastiness for my liking.
I really don't think wanting to avoid that kind of thing equates to wanting a medal for taking part or reduces things to whack-a-mole or, indeed, makes epics come out of virtual gum-ball machines.
For me, 'contested' is a side-effect of 'open world' that can cause unecessary unpleasantness and stress. I'll bet the Pants People can think of ways to minimise that unpleasantness and still keep raids challenging and fun.
I appreciate this is one of those contentious (pun unavoidable) issues and some feel that without the player vs player, group vs group and guild vs guild conflict the game is somehow 'reduced'. Some people thrive on conflict and competition with real people. Some people prefer accord and cooperation. One of my main loves of computer games in general is that I can kill and maim "bad" monsters and feel good about it because they aren't real. It's cathartic. It's even relaxing. I'm not some wuss in real life that won't compete with others or complain in a restaurant or stand up to a bully, but I don't want really need it in my games.
Its a love/hate thing for me. But I will say I always found the concept of contested content on PvE servers a bit disingenuous. And something better suited to PvP servers where its really contested lol with swords instead of damage percentage.
But I have also enjoyed contested content as long as it wasnt overfarmed by 500 people or it wasnt botted into oblivion. It feels good when its right though. Yea sure Epic Guild A got the Named and awesome loot this time, but next time you beat them to it etc. This kind of back and forth rivalry can be good for the comradery of your guild in that us vs them kinda way.
Feyshtey said:@disposalist
Read my second post and see if that resolves your concern. Or some of it.
That's some good thinking, yeah. Precisely the kind of thing that The Pants People need to consider and all I would ask of them (and the clever folks in these forums) is to at least consider changes even to these precious mechanics.
I think most of these contentious issues would have one or more changed or new mechanics those clever folks could think of to mitigate them without badly effecting to core tenets and what would make Pantheon 'as good as' EQ and VG in the most important ways.
Again I think contested content is great especially on the raid end. It sounds great on paper but if the top guilds can shut lower guilds out of raid content entirely, then issues will arise. So I say bring on contested content, but bring lockouts as well so content isn't hung between 2-3 guilds which inevitibly will happen. (I say this as if we have the power to do so then we will)
Contested content simply creates a unique challenge in an MMO without instancing.
It's kind of interesting how in games like MMO's, so many things can be boiled down to mathmatical formula's.
For example, determing the % chance at one groups ability to monopolize raid content would involve a few factors.
Adjustment of any and all of these variables would affect how successfully any one group/guild could successfully control any number of raid targets.