Raive said:Again I think contested content is great especially on the raid end. It sounds great on paper but if the top guilds can shut lower guilds out of raid content entirely, then issues will arise. So I say bring on contested content, but bring lockouts as well so content isn't hung between 2-3 guilds which inevitibly will happen. (I say this as if we have the power to do so then we will)
Why not have it both ways? If you kill the contested one, the item you get is named differently and you can go ahead and puff out your chest and brag how you did it contested version (and others can go ahead and not give a fark, because they saw and beat the same game encounter without peeing someone else off in RL to do it and have the key/quest item/gear they needed).
Everyone happy: The PvP obsessed griefers get their human competition and chest-beating, showing-off rights and get to see the lamentation of their peers. The PvE-loving carebears get to enjoy the game content they wanted to enjoy with their buddies unmolested and RL-stress-free.
Personally I'd be happy and proud to get my Water Sprinkler of Pansies and maybe I'd go for the Acid Sprinkler of Griefing later on, but at least I actually got to fight the dragon and can clicky-resurrect people in the meantime.
disposalist said:Why not have it both ways? If you kill the contested one, the item you get is named differently and you can go ahead and puff out your chest and brag how you did it contested version (and others can go ahead and not give a fark, because they saw and beat the same game encounter without peeing someone else off in RL to do it and have the key/quest item/gear they needed).
Everyone happy: The PvP obsessed griefers get their human competition and chest-beating, showing-off rights and get to see the lamentation of their peers. The PvE-loving carebears get to enjoy the game content they wanted to enjoy with their buddies unmolested and RL-stress-free.
Personally I'd be happy and proud to get my Water Sprinkler of Pansies and maybe I'd go for the Acid Sprinkler of Griefing later on, but at least I actually got to fight the dragon and can clicky-resurrect people in the meantime.
Does that really make everyone happy? Doesn't offering a lite version of a rare item somewhat diminish the value of the genuine article?
I'd argue it does.
disposalist said:Raive said:Again I think contested content is great especially on the raid end. It sounds great on paper but if the top guilds can shut lower guilds out of raid content entirely, then issues will arise. So I say bring on contested content, but bring lockouts as well so content isn't hung between 2-3 guilds which inevitibly will happen. (I say this as if we have the power to do so then we will)
Why not have it both ways? If you kill the contested one, the item you get is named differently and you can go ahead and puff out your chest and brag how you did it contested version (and others can go ahead and not give a fark, because they saw and beat the same game encounter without peeing someone else off in RL to do it and have the key/quest item/gear they needed).
Everyone happy: The PvP obsessed griefers get their human competition and chest-beating, showing-off rights and get to see the lamentation of their peers. The PvE-loving carebears get to enjoy the game content they wanted to enjoy with their buddies unmolested and RL-stress-free.
Personally I'd be happy and proud to get my Water Sprinkler of Pansies and maybe I'd go for the Acid Sprinkler of Griefing later on, but at least I actually got to fight the dragon and can clicky-resurrect people in the meantime.
I may not have understood your post entirely. But I'm simply going off of prior post where folks want things to be 100% contested like they wer in EQ. And again I support having contested content, it does add a bit of adrenaline rush getting your raid force up and to the target and killing it before the next guild does. However, this system can and will provide the next thing if developers are fine with guilds being able to shut guilds out of PVE content entirely. People speak of this game as if it will be of the super-hardcore nature, if this remains true and we keep it fully contested then the result will be just that. No matter how RNG the spawn timers can be or what event needs to be done to trigger, bigger guilds will lock such encounters down and out from say the not-so-big guilds.
I'm saying take the VG route of having encounter-based lockouts so it does give opportunity for guilds to experience content without having to deal with the hardcore "poitics". But hey if this is gonna be a hardcore game, guess we can tell them to "suck it up" i guess?
Dullahan said:disposalist said:Why not have it both ways? If you kill the contested one, the item you get is named differently and you can go ahead and puff out your chest and brag how you did it contested version (and others can go ahead and not give a fark, because they saw and beat the same game encounter without peeing someone else off in RL to do it and have the key/quest item/gear they needed).
Everyone happy: The PvP obsessed griefers get their human competition and chest-beating, showing-off rights and get to see the lamentation of their peers. The PvE-loving carebears get to enjoy the game content they wanted to enjoy with their buddies unmolested and RL-stress-free.
Personally I'd be happy and proud to get my Water Sprinkler of Pansies and maybe I'd go for the Acid Sprinkler of Griefing later on, but at least I actually got to fight the dragon and can clicky-resurrect people in the meantime.
Does that really make everyone happy? Doesn't offering a lite version of a rare item somewhat diminish the value of the genuine article?
I'd argue it does.
And I'd agree with you.
It's nice to imagine that people are not vain, but in reality they are. I bet if you suggested to 1000 MMO players if they were ok with having the same graphic from a badass item applied to a mid-level crap item, 990 of them would say they hated the idea. And that's just the graphic, not even stats that approach that of the badass item.
People want the visual recognition of having gotten that badass item. They like people saying, "Wow, is that a XYZ?!".
If you're going to have a lite version of an item why dont you just have a different mob with a different (lighter) drop table?
I can't speak on the PVP server aspect (as I'm not a mmorpg PVPer by choice). But the lockout is more in line of overall raid content and loot circulation being controlled. Now if they say no lockouts, everything is full go, then ignore this post and open up the floodgates :p
My problem with todays MMOs is instances, everything easily almost instantly aviable for everyone. Key fascination for me in EQ was limited drops random rares items worth a fortune. I pretty much like contest. Doesnt matter to me if a guild claims something, but of course there should be enough interesting bosses so not everything can be claimed by a few guilds. Or once certain expansions came in EQ the once claimed mobs got less interesting and new stuff got attention by said guilds. Or you could just buy said item from them , there was no no drop or bound on pickup stuff.
Ondark said:My problem with todays MMOs is instances, everything easily almost instantly aviable for everyone. Key fascination for me in EQ was limited drops random rares items worth a fortune. I pretty much like contest. Doesnt matter to me if a guild claims something, but of course there should be enough interesting bosses so not everything can be claimed by a few guilds. Or once certain expansions came in EQ the once claimed mobs got less interesting and new stuff got attention by said guilds. Or you could just buy said item from them , there was no no drop or bound on pickup stuff.
Key part of your statement. This part is the kicker. There never is and there are too many mouths to feed. Given we have no idea how much focus the raid game will have, its all up for speculation. We're not talking instances here, but it all comes down to if the developers are ok with content being locked out via competition. See how APW in VG panned out after touting #neverInstances.
My feeling on the issue are similar to disposalist's. I prefer cooperation over competition, and would rather have the game challenge me than having the player base challenging me to get the game.
Lockout timers and fast respawn is the way to go to avoid instances IMO. That and/or farmable items to summon bosses "on demand" (and locked to the summoner). If you want to give +5% stats on the loot to the first guild of the week to kill the spawn to have some sort of competition go ahead, but make the content available to others after that.
Sunmistress said: If I can lock out others from content to maximize my gains from content... I will do it everytime and I will surround my self with players like me whenever possible. I am completely indifferent to the subject though if I am forced to play nice or there is an incentive to it, I will share, if not, I gain nothing from it, why do it?
I'm in the same boat, which is why when people say they want fully contested content, they are expecting some guilds to "play nice" and "let the little guys have at it". if only
Some interesting comments from Brad from The recent AMA on reddit:
No, nothing instanced, although it is possible specific encounters would be locked to the guild doing that content such that others could not interfere. Its still too early to talk about how many people would be in a raid at any given level.
No instanced combat. Dungeons will be huge and shared. Certain areas and specific mobs may be assigned to the group that got their first, leaving others to more passive roles, but you will be in the same environment. As for zerging and other similar behaviors, mobs in Pantheon will not simply stick around and be destroyed by vast numbers of players -- they will act and react, whether that means leaving the area, calling in friends, etc.
This is music to my ears. So that means not only anti-zerging tactics, but at least some form of mob tagging and lockout. Excellent!
I recently tried out one of the EQ time lock progression servers. I moved on to another game when two things happened to ruin my gaming experiecne.
1) A Bat-Phone call from my guild to wake me up at 3am on a week day ... to RUSH to ready for a Raid target that had Popped... So we could try to beat other guilds to the pull. I seriously don't need this in my life anymore. When I was ohhh in my early 20's ... I was all about all nighters and staying online for insane lengths of time without sleep. However, as a mature adult I have come to realize that balance in life is needed and allowing a game to over run my entire life is simply not healthy for me or my loved ones. Please provide in game mechanics that make attaining the right to a raid targets challenging but set this up in a way that provides a way for players access to this content even if they are not "poop sockers" and "bat phone users."
2) Bot armies ~ Once they started over running the major desirable camps the server population began to decline severly. That and the above noted marked the decline on the EQ Ragefire IMO
I think it is important to realize that it is very very likely that the majority of players attracked to his game are likely to be 30 - 50+ in age and will likely share these perspectives. Most of us are no longers teenagers or college students :)
Amsai said:Some interesting comments from Brad from The recent AMA on reddit:
No, nothing instanced, although it is possible specific encounters would be locked to the guild doing that content such that others could not interfere. Its still too early to talk about how many people would be in a raid at any given level.
No instanced combat. Dungeons will be huge and shared. Certain areas and specific mobs may be assigned to the group that got their first, leaving others to more passive roles, but you will be in the same environment. As for zerging and other similar behaviors, mobs in Pantheon will not simply stick around and be destroyed by vast numbers of players -- they will act and react, whether that means leaving the area, calling in friends, etc.
This is music to my ears. So that means not only anti-zerging tactics, but at least some form of mob tagging and lockout. Excellent!
Indeed, I am happy to hear this as well.
Amsai said:Some interesting comments from Brad from The recent AMA on reddit:
No, nothing instanced, although it is possible specific encounters would be locked to the guild doing that content such that others could not interfere. Its still too early to talk about how many people would be in a raid at any given level.
No instanced combat. Dungeons will be huge and shared. Certain areas and specific mobs may be assigned to the group that got their first, leaving others to more passive roles, but you will be in the same environment. As for zerging and other similar behaviors, mobs in Pantheon will not simply stick around and be destroyed by vast numbers of players -- they will act and react, whether that means leaving the area, calling in friends, etc.
This is music to my ears. So that means not only anti-zerging tactics, but at least some form of mob tagging and lockout. Excellent!
I agree that everything he said sounds solid to me.
What is everyone using the word lockout to mean? I understand it to mean that if you have killed a mob you are unable to engage that mob again for X time. I dont see anything in Brad's statement about lockout in that meaning.
Competition brings out the best and the worst in people.
Some of the best times were beating "uber guild 101" to a raid target and having them watch as you beat it. Social interaction with opposing players and most of the time gained your guild respect. I think if you try to guard against all the negative things you lose some pretty cool positive things.
Most servers I played on you would have at most 2-3 guilds that were competing agaisnt eachother. Depending on how many raid targets are available in Pantheon will determine on how crazy it would get. By not having raid targets be bottlenecks for Epic Quest Lines should help a lot tho.
Losing the race sucked but it also made the times you won the race feel that much sweeter.
Amsai said: You are correct that is the usual meaning of lockout. Perhaps I should have said locked to the group instead. The wording implies that not only could you claim a mob for you or your group but that no one would be able to interfere thus not undermining the intended challenge. But I also hope for some actual lockouts for certain named as well.
Mob tagging has its downside though too. If no one can steal the mob, they also cant help you if you get into trouble.
On this topic, I would prefere a good mixture of contested and not so contested content. This way everyone gets that content he or she likes.
I for example would hate this scenario: You and your guild are fighting a strong boss. The boss is really strong, but you managed to get him nearly down. You see a chance to defeat him for the first time, because everything went well so far. Of course most of the players are not full HP or mana. Then another guild wiht full HP and full mana jumps in, beats you to death and kills the boss and gets the loot.(PvP Server?)
This is not the contested content I like. But it could be contested in other forms. The first guild that manages to farm all the ??? to get the key for the door to the boss gets him. Or similar to some content in GW2 or WoW, you have PvP Events and then the one who managed to win the fight can do the boss. This is all a good form of contest. You must be the first, strongest, ... But then you have the boss, then it is "your" boss and no one can disturb you, at least for one try. (PvE Server?)
Without using instances there could even be another way to have a boss absolutely not contested. You need to craft or farm an item which summones the boss. So every group or guild can have it's own boss.
@Landbert
I think a lot of people are as well. Im interested in a varied approach to content. One of my favorite methods is part contested/part triggered. So you kill the contested mob to get the trigger item to then spawn the triggered mob later. But craft and quest triggered are nice as well.