GoofyWarriorGuy said:I just wanted to point out that there isn't really any question on IF there will be a PnP. It's more about what is contained in this policy. So don't think that there will be no policy at all. I will refer back to Kilsin's words from page 3 of this Thread.
philo said:@Keldaria No one is questioning the need for a PNP. They have been standard in most MMOs from the beginning. There is always some form of code of conduct.
“should a PnP exist”
Is not the issue.
This is semantics, of course a "PnP" will be in effect to the terms of no griefing or harassment being allowed (if you want to call that a PnP). When players in this thread talk about PnP here they are not discussing if there should be an anti-griefing policy or not, they are discussing if a PnP should contain other protections to encourage players to play nicely with each other as opposed to playing against each other by allowing anything to go up to the point where it crosses the line into griefing or harrassment. At any rate, I've yet to see anyone seeking only the barebones protections against griefing/harassment to call that limited ruleset a PnP and I highly doubt if VR staff came out tomorrow and said, "we will develop a PnP" that anyone would take that to mean just greifing or harassment protections, so while you are technically correct in saying a PnP will exist, please understand that you are splitting hairs with a semantics arguement.
MauvaisOeil said:I'd just add this is a matter of opinion, which doesn't make them ultimately bad, but only bad at your eyes. Which I think is the main purpose of Raidan's post : Explaining to you that your arguments and counter arguments are solely based on your own view and personal opinion, and not an universal truth.
However you seem commonly stuck in the loop of "I think it's bad thus it's bad and only my arguments are good", which outside beeing quite common humanly, doesn't bring any discussion further.
In fact, you're solely enticed to your opinion but pretty much no one agree to it. That should be a hint about it beeing either a evident truth, or just a very narrow opinion.
This is where you're wrong. His reasons WERE bad. If someone points out a better way of handling what you want to be a mechanic, that's a bad reason for wanting that mechanic. I don't think anyone thinks that being able to train is a good reason for why fd pulling should be in the game. You can have FD pulling without being able to train across the entire zone.
I just want someone to give me a decent reason why "training" needs to he apart of the game. If your reason is because you liked how it was in eq, then just say it. But that's not a good reason. People always try to come up with these elaborate reasons why they want something in the game. When in reality they just want it because they liked EQ. That's my issue. If you disagree with my posts. Give me a good reason why. Dont just say, fd pulling (which can be done better without the ability to train) and pet pulling, which was a unintended consequence of the pet code.
Here is a reason: Trains are more conducive to things feeling more like a world and less a game. If a group of orcs found someone in their lair they'd most likely at least chase them out to the entrance, if they saw others on their way back to whatever they were doing they would then attack them too. Sometimes they might even stop chasing the first person if they passed/saw foreigners savagely killing a fellow orc, turning to them instead. Far more engaging than mobs just turning and blindly walking back to their spawn regardless of who or what they pass along the way.
zewtastic said:THIS IS WHAT MADE EQ1 "the Golden Years" INTERESTING
All of the details I outline above led to exciting and unpredicable events in the land of EQ1. Start "fixing" mechanics, banning players for innocent actions and otherwise turning the game in WoW, EQ2 and so forth is a bad idea.
What made the eq1 golden years interesting was the entire lack of knowledge most players had about the game. Which caused almost every day to become a new adventure. That's what made it exciting. Not bad mechanics.
In regards to the accidental train and weird pathing, this was absolutely a concern in eq1. But this is easily fixed by having an in combat indicator on the UI. Find yourself in combat, stop and figure out what it is.
In regards to "why run out", being in a new dungeon or the twinkling/pl example, just play more carefully. Even in wow, in new dungeons I was always more careful then usual just to make sure I understood the mobs, mechanics and what not. I dont think it's too much to ask people to try and play better the deeper you are into a dungeon, it's kinda common sense.
And lastly, yes, in eq1 people at the zone in absolutely needed to be aware... but why. I assume there will be a better lfg tool in pantheon, but the easiest and best way to find groups in eq was to be in the zone. You shouldn't have to zone out everytime you go pee or grab a drink for fear of combat from people running. Just dont run. Take your death. Who knows, maybe the community can band together behind the new etiquette of dying instead training and more players will be assisting in corpse runs and rezzes.
To the last thing you said. No one is asking to ban innocent people. But if you tell people training of mobs is not accepted... well then they are clearly willing to suffer the consequences if caught. You couldn't train in eq1 intentionally but people still did. It's a choice you make.
Changing these mechanics to make the gameplay better doesn't mean you're watering down the games or turning it into wow. That's the biggest stretch ever. Pantheon could never become wow unless instances and class homogenization occur. Which I think most people agree will probably never happen.
@Porygon
No reason would be good to you, which is what I pointed in my topic. It's not a matter of bad or good reasons, just that you don't intent to change your opinion, thus making the exchange sterile.
This post is 13 pages long and you posted at least once per page, however nothing made your change your mind or accept something you didn't intent at first. The subjectivity here, is simply stated in the obvious wrongs you point as if they were and evidence. Nothing except griefing is an evidence, and no game should overwhelm itself around griefing by dropping gameplay, features or the feeling of immersion. That's like loosing freedom for the sake of security, I think a lot of politician already stated things about that dire trade. Griefers will grief whatever mechanics are in place, and find new way to do it simply because as long as they aren't beaten with a stick, they will opt for malicious play.
Twisting things, pointing players as culprits of valueing their time of play over the risk of accidentally training someone, while arguing on other topics about how you will control the Pve end game scene if nothing is made to stop your way, seems a bit off pretending to have values.
I'm fine with your opinion, on this matter or on others, but it remains a single opinion and no one is enticed to convince you, first because it won't happen, second because it won't change anything.
MauvaisOeil said:No reason would be good to you, which is what I pointed in my topic. It's not a matter of bad or good reasons, just that you don't intent to change your opinion, thus making the exchange sterile.
This is usually the response that comes when you have no decent reason. Like I said, if your reason is "I like eq1" that's fine. It's a bad reason but I accept it. If you name a bunch of random mechanics like the other guy did , I'm going to counter them with reasons that I think are valid. That's how a discussion (or arguements) work. If you dont want to go back and forth. Just stop quoting me. You can choose to ignore any post you want. But the forums are here to have discussions. I don't see anything wrong with how I'm conducting those.
Again, if you want to give some reasons why you feel training should be a mechanic in the game, as it directly relates to the PNP. Feel free to do that. I welcome it.