In my 10+ years of playing EQ. I've honestly experienced KSing a handful of times. Even on the progression servers, where the community was far more cutthroat, I generally did not have to deal with it.
Here's why (and this is not tooting my own horn, just explaining the mentality of someone who would KS).
The camps I held were always kept clear and spawns were pulled immediately. If there was 25 mobs on camp. But I could only kill 19 before the first respawned... well I only killed 19 mobs. Most players see a camp. And try to kill all the mobs. Leaving named mobs up, or other mobs alive while "finishing their cycle". This gives KSers not only the ability to get to the mob before you but the time to attack it before you are even ready.
If anyone played on lockjaw and ragefire early on, before all zones were instanced with pickzone. You know how crazy it was trying to hold down serious camps. But I never once had any issues. Because when a "baddie" as they are called comes to a camo and sees a super efficient group killing mobs the moment they spawn... they leave. It's not worth their time.
I know people will just come back and say if there was a pnp that didnt allow for ksing this wouldnt even be a concern. But just some tips incase you dont get your wishes (which I honestly assume you wont). Dont set yourself up to be the "victim" and you wont become the "victim"
Porygon said:In my 10+ years of playing EQ. I've honestly experienced KSing a handful of times. Even on the progression servers, where the community was far more cutthroat, I generally did not have to deal with it.
Here's why (and this is not tooting my own horn, just explaining the mentality of someone who would KS).
The camps I held were always kept clear and spawns were pulled immediately. If there was 25 mobs on camp. But I could only kill 19 before the first respawned... well I only killed 19 mobs. Most players see a camp. And try to kill all the mobs. Leaving named mobs up, or other mobs alive while "finishing their cycle". This gives KSers not only the ability to get to the mob before you but the time to attack it before you are even ready.
If anyone played on lockjaw and ragefire early on, before all zones were instanced with pickzone. You know how crazy it was trying to hold down serious camps. But I never once had any issues. Because when a "baddie" as they are called comes to a camo and sees a super efficient group killing mobs the moment they spawn... they leave. It's not worth their time.
I know people will just come back and say if there was a pnp that didnt allow for ksing this wouldnt even be a concern. But just some tips incase you dont get your wishes (which I honestly assume you wont). Dont set yourself up to be the "victim" and you wont become the "victim"
And all the times I remember experiencing it - and there were many - it was simply because either it was busy and some player(s) would rather harass you out of a camp than travel to another or the camp you had had some loot someone else wanted and they simply didn't care what they did to get it.
Ocassionally I encountered people that simply liked upsetting others.
How wonderful that you never got that.
disposalist said:oneADseven said:Definitely weird to me that some folks are so vigilant about bringing back a culture of using /ooc camp checks to avoid exploration and organic interaction with other players. Let's consider a phrase from the "What is Pantheon" page:
"Because Pantheon values the paradigm of great risk vs. great reward, the player will always be encouraged to push themselves out the door and to embrace exploration, adventure, danger and the community of players alongside them."Sounds pretty awesome to me.
Me too. How come you are reading "embrace...the community of players alongside them" to mean "contend with the community of players against them"?
The "danger" in that sentence is one of the things to embrace, not a part of the description of the community.
Dangit, I said I was done with this discussion... I'll try again now.
You are the one reading it that way. I read it as "embrace the idea that other players will be playing alongside you." Sometimes that means friends in your group, sometimes it means fun/healthy competition with players outside your group -- but the main point is that there are other players out there and they are considered a part of the environment in an open-world game. Embracing players alongside you doesn't suddenly stop because they aren't directly helping you -- you are choosing to embrace some but shun others whereas I'm simply stating that I embrace an "open-world" and the non-caveat-bound players it entails. Either way, an /ooc camp check directly goes against that bold/underlined statement. Rather than pushing out the door to explore/adventure and see what kind of mysteries might be around the corner, players do an /ooc camp check ... and the main purpose of this is to avoid other players and their parking spot? Yuck. It seems so obvious to me how much different our experiences were and I attribute a lot of that to the culture of the communities we were part of, the rulesets that governed them, and the way the worlds we played in were constructed. It seems like a lot of folks are automatically going on the defensive as soon as competition gets brought up. It's quite sad.
oneADseven said:You are the one reading it that way. I read it as "embrace the idea that other players will be playing alongside you." Sometimes that means friends in your group, sometimes it means fun/healthy competition with players outside your group -- but the main point is that there are other players out there and they are considered a part of the environment in an open-world game. Embracing players alongside you doesn't suddenly stop because they aren't directly helping you -- you are choosing to embrace some but shun others whereas I'm simply stating that I embrace an "open-world" and everything it entails. Either way, an /ooc camp check directly goes against that bold/underlined statement. Rather than pushing out the door to explore/adventure and see what kind of mysteries might be around the corner, players do an /ooc camp check ... and the sole purpose of this is to avoid a location that other players have already claimed? It seems so obvious to me how much different our experiences were and I attribute a lot of that to the culture of the communities we were part of, the rulesets that governed them, and the way the worlds we played in were constructed. It seems like a lot of folks are automatically going on the defensive as soon as competition gets brought up. It's quite sad.
NPC are limited and on spawn timers which makes them a comodity. Zones will be broken into areas because 2 groups who split an areas NPC will gain xp and half the rate vs going somewhere else, "camp" where they can kill more mobs without over crowding. Thats why people do camp checks so they can be the most efficient at leveling. Camps are a crowding issues and issues with people wanting drops from named mobs.
I honestly think you are going to have a bad time in pantheon if your mentaility is to DPS race named. And by named I mean group level content not raid level targets. Raid targets are a different beast.
I only ever experienced ninja looting, perma camped mobs, quest mob triggered spawn engaged by another group, and forced camp takeovers. I never experienced the "51%" DPS battle. Most people would respect the first to engage rule. The only time it sucked was when they would tag a triggered quest mob pop. We would just petition and get the item or a mob respawn as it was a triggered spawn and they stole it.
After they instituted raid grouping and loot rights i didnt experience anything other than bot army camp takeovers. And perma camped mobs. But even then - they never blasted any mob i was actively killing, they just killed everything else in sight. I guess i kinda lived a sheltered life.
Porygon said:
I know people will just come back and say if there was a pnp that didnt allow for ksing this wouldnt even be a concern. But just some tips incase you dont get your wishes (which I honestly assume you wont). Dont set yourself up to be the "victim" and you wont become the "victim"
A lot of what you said is true to an extent. KS'ers have a lot harder time fullfilling their mission if there are no mobs up to kill. But that isn't going to stop someone from sitting on a named/ph spawn waiting. Myconid Spore King for instance, dropped the fungi tunic. A group could sit there all day killing and killing and a KS'er comes through gets the timer, sits back and waits. Would need to be a high DPS class but a Wizard could pull it off rather easily. KS group get loot and move on out. It didn't go away with /pick either. Had a lot of people would sit at a named spawn and pick back and forth ganking named. What little time I spent on a progression server I seen a lot of this. Sure in theory it's 6 against 1 or 2. But when you're grouping you find a nice medium of DPS/aggro management and if a badly geared DPS'er gets aggro and gets killed trying to prevent the KS you put yourself at more of a disadvantage.
To just say that keeping the camp clear solves most of the issues is a bit of a stretch. It helps but there is still those who can get it done.
oneADseven said:You are the one reading it that way. I read it as "embrace the idea that other players will be playing alongside you." Sometimes that means friends in your group, sometimes it means fun/healthy competition with players outside your group -- but the main point is that there are other players out there and they are considered a part of the environment in an open-world game. Embracing players alongside you doesn't suddenly stop because they aren't directly helping you -- you are choosing to embrace some but shun others whereas I'm simply stating that I embrace an "open-world" and the non-caveat-bound players it entails. Either way, an /ooc camp check directly goes against that bold/underlined statement. Rather than pushing out the door to explore/adventure and see what kind of mysteries might be around the corner, players do an /ooc camp check ... and the main purpose of this is to avoid other players and their parking spot? Yuck. It seems so obvious to me how much different our experiences were and I attribute a lot of that to the culture of the communities we were part of, the rulesets that governed them, and the way the worlds we played in were constructed. It seems like a lot of folks are automatically going on the defensive as soon as competition gets brought up. It's quite sad.
I can certainly agree that the differences in our preferrences and experiences are very much a product of the culture, communities, rulesets and the way the games we played were made. I honestly attribute this to certain games appealing to a players specific preferences in playstyle. Honestly, as fondly as you speak of FFXI, I strongly doubt it would be a game I enjoyed. That of course doesn't mean I can't appreciate the content it provided you and its approach that appealed to you, but simply acknowledge that it wasn't something for me. For me its all personal play preference, I certainly think you should be able to get the competitive environment you seek, but I just happen to also think that 1 playstyle doesn't need to represent all available playstyles because we obviously have the opportunity to provide multiple options by developing individual ruleset servers like we do for PvP.
As for your /ooc camp check logic, again, I think you are making a bad assumption that it won't occur if competition is allowed. Camp checks aren't necessarily going to go away because you allow people to compete, in most cases camp checks will likely always exist in any environment that allows a zone wide chat and that zone has camps. In most cases, even in competitive environments, most groups won't want to struggle against another group if a different camp with similar advancement options exists is open in the same zone. The only time camp checks in a competitive environment wouldn't occur is when a group was dead set on taking X name or taking Y camp, which honestly doesn't really speak to your assumptions of exploration and random encounters, nor to any sense of adventure that i find compelling (although like I previously said, I understand why others might). Again, if anything you are making a compelling arguement for removal of /ooc and other similar commands. This is an idea worth discussing, I think there are some strong con's against it because I also feel /ooc and similar channels serve as valuable conduits for players actively interacting by checking for open spots in groups/finding nearby players for their groups as opposed to the rather passive methods of putting lfg on an ingame board or system and waiting.
Beyond all of that, I think there is a misconception in your opinion of what we, as non-competitive players, are seeking out of an open world experience. While we certainly want to curtail the competitive interactions with one another, that doesn't mean we want a world devoid of outside cause and effect by other players. I personally want to see groups get overwhelmed and train to zone putting other groups along the way in jeopardy (as an enchanter I loved derailing trains), I want to see other groups moving through my camp on their way to finding their spot and interacting with us along the way (possibly letting us know they will be grabing a few mobs of ours if they're up as they need to clear to their spot), I want to players around that I can trade buffs with and many more types of interactions. Being competitive just isn't necessarily a requirement to have an open world environment with other players being part of the equation.
The truth is actually that I want everything out of an open world experience that you do my friend, just minus the competition parts.
Porygon said:In my 10+ years of playing EQ. I've honestly experienced KSing a handful of times. Even on the progression servers, where the community was far more cutthroat, I generally did not have to deal with it.
Here's why (and this is not tooting my own horn, just explaining the mentality of someone who would KS).
The camps I held were always kept clear and spawns were pulled immediately. If there was 25 mobs on camp. But I could only kill 19 before the first respawned... well I only killed 19 mobs. Most players see a camp. And try to kill all the mobs. Leaving named mobs up, or other mobs alive while "finishing their cycle". This gives KSers not only the ability to get to the mob before you but the time to attack it before you are even ready.
If anyone played on lockjaw and ragefire early on, before all zones were instanced with pickzone. You know how crazy it was trying to hold down serious camps. But I never once had any issues. Because when a "baddie" as they are called comes to a camo and sees a super efficient group killing mobs the moment they spawn... they leave. It's not worth their time.
I know people will just come back and say if there was a pnp that didnt allow for ksing this wouldnt even be a concern. But just some tips incase you dont get your wishes (which I honestly assume you wont). Dont set yourself up to be the "victim" and you wont become the "victim"
I think you are also making some bad assumptions. Nearly all of my groups function this way, fact is you almost always pull the mobs closest to you (why would anyone pull farther mobs just because they are typically part of the camp) and named are always the first thing that gets pulled if available because keeping them down and on their respawn timer is how you maximize their drops, plus there always is an element of loot pinata in the mix with many of us always wanting to see whats inside.
That said, its not nearly as simple and clean cut as you make it out to be. In many cases, as an enchanter, my groups would pull 3 or more mobs at a time. It wasn't uncommon in some camps for respawn to occur in the middle of long pulls. This action alone sometimes meant that 3 or so mobs respawned and were sitting around while we finished killing the others. This wasn't a concious choice by the group but rather just the natural ebb and flow of mobs being pulled.
Additionally something needs to be said of downtime in the group. I don't mean bio breaks and afk drink runs either but rather Mana breaks. While somewhat uncommon in games now because they include systems to minimize downtime assuming that element of gameplay isn't fun and should be avoided, Pantheon includes downtime as one of its key tenets. When the cleric needs mana, you're not necessarily going to be pulling that named mob regardless of it being up. Sure it is possible for good players like ourselves to manage mana in most situations (barring being trained or an unexpected mass pull) but I expect some form of med break to exist in pantheon even for the best players because they are putting some emphsis on downtime as a key component of the game. This also speaks nothing of the scenarios where you need to kill the current mob or mobs in camp before you are able to pull the named that just spawned.
These are all very valid scenario's where mobs or named mobs could easly be sniped by another group or party making it possible for them to move in under your circumstances. That ofcourse doesn't mean we leave it sitting for 5 mins but to state that its always an option to pull and kill mobs instantly upon spawning is honestly a false narrative.
Beyond all that, I truely don't think blaming the victim is the correct perspective to put on the issue at hand. You may not have intended it that way when you wrote this but its very hard not to read it that way.
Mostly I agree with what Keldaria said though inevitably we view some things very differently, such as the desirability of allowing training which I view as pseudo pvp on a pve server.
One can have an open world and numerous interactions with other players without *encouraging* competition or having mechanisms to make competition easier and cooperation harder.
There will be competition - its inevitable. There will be cooperation - its inevitable. IMO Pantheon should encourage cooperation and most certainly permit competition but make it the more challenging way to go. It should be *harder* to make a living as a pig-futtering kill stealer or camp breaker than as a nice person working with other players.
I understood what you meant about training, Keldaria.
Our difference here - and you are very much in the majority and I am not - is that I would prevent intentional training by a game mechanic that would make training impossible. It would also make accidental training impossible. Since you view accidental trains as desirable, adding uncertainty and excitement, you would not want to prevent any training.
Almost surely much of the fondness for trains on these forums is a combination of nostalgia for EQ and either conscious or subconscious belief that however the first MMO that we invested a lot of time and emotion into had to be the right way to do things. Thus my first major investment of time and emotion into a MMO was DAOC not EQ (when EQ came out I simply passed on it - probably a mistake). So to this day I view things like camps (common to both games) as natural, trains as unnatural and undesirable, and immunity to any crowd control for a set amout of time after being subjected to crowd control as natural and desirable (I have no idea how EQ handled this but even now when two different mobs stun me in succession or a mob stuns me then disarms me I feel cheated - it just isn't right).
In other words I don't think my approach to trains is any more logical than yours but my background and MMO training (pun intended of course) is different.
Umbra said:Interesting article by Raph Koster on policies and systems to manage reputations and how they evolved over time in UO.
Modern MMORPGs could still learn a lot from UO, its mistakes, and its successes.
Reading that article sure brings back memories, UO was free and wild, hard but fun.
I played Napa Valley, around 1998-2003. Fun times :)
Tal
Talonguard said:Modern MMORPGs could still learn a lot from UO, its mistakes, and its successes.
Reading that article sure brings back memories, UO was free and wild, hard but fun.
I played Napa Valley, around 1998-2003. Fun times :)
Tal
Yeah, I played UP prior to EQ also. It certainly was a ride - not much different to the MUDs I came from, but just so many more people playing from all sides of the spectrum.
Porygon said:In my 10+ years of playing EQ. I've honestly experienced KSing a handful of times. Even on the progression servers, where the community was far more cutthroat, I generally did not have to deal with it.
Here's why (and this is not tooting my own horn, just explaining the mentality of someone who would KS).
The camps I held were always kept clear and spawns were pulled immediately. If there was 25 mobs on camp. But I could only kill 19 before the first respawned... well I only killed 19 mobs. Most players see a camp. And try to kill all the mobs. Leaving named mobs up, or other mobs alive while "finishing their cycle". This gives KSers not only the ability to get to the mob before you but the time to attack it before you are even ready.
If anyone played on lockjaw and ragefire early on, before all zones were instanced with pickzone. You know how crazy it was trying to hold down serious camps. But I never once had any issues. Because when a "baddie" as they are called comes to a camo and sees a super efficient group killing mobs the moment they spawn... they leave. It's not worth their time.
I know people will just come back and say if there was a pnp that didnt allow for ksing this wouldnt even be a concern. But just some tips incase you dont get your wishes (which I honestly assume you wont). Dont set yourself up to be the "victim" and you wont become the "victim"
TLP is all about dps races... Killstealing is DPS race and nobody cared back then and nobody cares now. When we played in an open world where a rare spawn would come up. A high lvl person would roll in full of epics and ks the mob your about to engage. To them its open fair game play because its all about the loot and the greed. and you did not engage it in time.
To them being higher lvl and better gear, was the right to do whatever they want.
Its the nature of the beast only the real men and women would respect you, and maybe help.
dorotea said:Almost surely much of the fondness for trains on these forums is a combination of nostalgia for EQ and either conscious or subconscious belief that however the first MMO that we invested a lot of time and emotion into had to be the right way to do things.
This just isn't true at all. No one "liked" to be trained, either intentionally or unintentionally in EQ, and it most definitely isn't nostalgia that would want me to include them in game even with remembering the hillarious unintentional train or two. The counterargument to dismiss older game mechanics (or lack thereof) as nostalgia usually is always wrong. People want the ability to allow trains not for the actual trains themselves, but the emergent gameplay and realism that is removed by creating artificial mechanics to prevent training. Basically, you penalize the masses for the few bad eggs (I call them terrible knee-jerk reactions).
A few examples of why I, and others would want to keep training in game would be for FD pulling in either the same group or multiple groups specifically. Camps as you say were able to be /split by using these mechanics - it wouldn't be possible if the agro was wiped by FD and the mobs were then were locked as they were running back to camp. Or, FD pulling in combination with lulls/pacifies. Or, /oh crap, I just pulled too many - train to zone and have the group pull off a straggler that may have stayed just a "bit" too long to break up a camp. Or, then there was pet pulling, /pet hold, etc. later. And, trains forced you to be more aware of your surroundings - don't fight at the zonelines, be aware of multiple exits, be more aware of agro range, spawn points, "safe camping spots." Or, trains added to player reputation (negative from the trainer, but also positive) - remembering the player that derailed the train and saved the gnome running to the zoneline etc. etc. Those are just the few off the top of my head, but as I've stated earlier in this thread, police the bad eggs, don't penalize everyone because of them.
Like many mechanics that people want created, the attempt to police the few at the expense of many ultimately ends in a more watered down/restricted/linear version of a game world.
To be fair. And I assume this is an unpopular opinion. But if you pull too many and train to the zoneline, you're a pos. Your mentality in that moment is, I need to live, regardless of what damage i cause anyone else. You're just as bad as the people that waltz into your camp and try and KS you.
If you fail at pulling, take your death and start your corpse run. There's no need to throw the entire zone into chaos.
Unintentional trains don't exist. There's only trains with malice backing them or cowardice. And honestly both are terrible.
(I guess if somehow you didn't know you had aggro... But cmon. Keep your head on a swivel)
Porygon said:To be fair. And I assume this is an unpopular opinion. But if you pull too many and train to the zoneline, you're a pos. Your mentality in that moment is, I need to live, regardless of what damage i cause anyone else. You're just as bad as the people that waltz into your camp and try and KS you.
If you fail at pulling, take your death and start your corpse run. There's no need to throw the entire zone into chaos.
Unintentional trains don't exist. There's only trains with malice backing them or cowardice. And honestly both are terrible.
(I guess if somehow you didn't know you had aggro... But cmon. Keep your head on a swivel)
You're right, not real popular of an opinion.
I invite anyone running for there life to head to the zone and just shoot right through there like a bullet! I surely will be! This is (I hope) the only way to lose the mobs. Spam a "Train to Zone" hot key if you can but bring it!
Zone lines are NOT a safe spot!
The direct path too a Zone line is not a safe spot!
To hit a Zone and go AFK while "loading" or otherwise going AFK at a Zone line is just downright foolish and if you come back from making your sandwich to find yourself dead it's your own fault.
Trains are going to be part of Pantheon, and players need to learn to deal with them not cry about them and want a care bare world.
Raidan gave an excellent explanation on why Trains are needed. Spot on Raidan, thank you. Ying and yang. We NEED the evil to appreciate the good. The dark for the light ect.
Zorkon said:
You addressed nothing in my post, yet still claimed it was an unpopular opinion.
I challenge you to explain to me why you pulling 6 mobs and running thru the zone potentially killing other players is any better than me waltzing into a camp and taking "your" mobs.
Porygon said:Zorkon said:You addressed nothing in my post, yet still claimed it was an unpopular opinion.
I challenge you to explain to me why you pulling 6 mobs and running thru the zone potentially killing other players is any better than me waltzing into a camp and taking "your" mobs.
I totally addressed this,
Porygon said:To be fair. And I assume this is an unpopular opinion. But if you pull too many and train to the zoneline, you're a pos. Your mentality in that moment is, I need to live, regardless of what damage i cause anyone else. You're just as bad as the people that waltz into your camp and try and KS you.
At the risk of being ruder than I like, Let me try to clarify my point. It's a punk ass wimp that thinks someone training the zone to save there lives is a "pos". It is a piss poor player that finds themselves standing in a zone entrance getting Trained (what your whining about).Your entire argument about Trains is moot asking for VR to cover your butt for bad playing.
Did that help clarify it?
And as to your challenge,
Porygon said:I challenge you to explain to me why you pulling 6 mobs and running thru the zone potentially killing other players is any better than me waltzing into a camp and taking "your" mobs.
I have no problem with you "waltzing into a camp and taking "THE" mobs." they are our Mobs.. if you tag them before I do then have at them I don't acknowledge this entitled method of what you like to call Camps and kill steeling.
I belive VR should not recognize camps at ALL, and they should limit the definition of kill steeling to "Overpowering another player that has already engaged" NOT me attacking a mob that's in the room you're in while you sit there AFK or on a corpse run or asleep at the keyboard (seen it, more than once)
TLDR: I think your whole argument for easy mode is bogus and already available on Wow if you want.
Zorkon said:TLDR: I think your whole argument for easy mode is bogus and already available on Wow if you want.
I can see this is going to be challenging.
1) you seem to be assuming that the only people affected by "unintentional" trains are those at the zone line. This is not true. What about the players in the middle of the zone whose camo you ran 6 mobs thru.
2) you still have not explained why you think someone DECIDING to get other people killed is an acceptable practice, just because they are trying to save their lives. (I'll help you with this one. You feel that was because the playerbase of EQ arbitrarily decided that it was ok, and you have a hard time letting go and accepting anything different).
3) i have no idea why you're bringing up wow, as I have no desire to play a wow clone, or for the game to be easymode. This is a poor attempt at trying to insult me that failed miserably. I would also challenge that asking for 2 different scenarios (someone training you intentionally, and someone training you "unintentionally", which is honestly still intentionally, be considered similar) is not at all trying to make the game easier. But harder.
Porygon said:Zorkon said:TLDR: I think your whole argument for easy mode is bogus and already available on Wow if you want.
I can see this is going to be challenging.
Only challenging because you for some reason think you need to convince me you're right. Yes, that would indeed be challenging.
Here's my stance on the Topic.of a play nice policy.
1) Yes one should be created by VR.
2) it should not or can not be created now. We don't even have a fully functional game yet to see where problems will need regulated.
3) When the time comes, VR's policy should only dictate the BARE MINIMUM of what is expected.
And that would not include every whiny punk that cried about a Train at ANY point in the zone. Be it zone entrance, bottleneck through a mountain pass or standing out in the middle of a frigging desert. Be aware of your surroundings and it's EASY to avoid a Train.. "get off the tracks!"
An intentional train is if the trainer followed you when you moved out of the way. now THAT'S intentional and should be against a PNP. YOU standing on the tracks and getting hit by a Train more than once is not VR's problem.
See, not so challenging at all... I think I made my point on the topic clear as you have made yours.
Umbra said:Talonguard said:Modern MMORPGs could still learn a lot from UO, its mistakes, and its successes.
Reading that article sure brings back memories, UO was free and wild, hard but fun.
I played Napa Valley, around 1998-2003. Fun times :)
Tal
Yeah, I played UP prior to EQ also. It certainly was a ride - not much different to the MUDs I came from, but just so many more people playing from all sides of the spectrum.
I played UO from 96(alpha) until I got into the EQ1 beta in Sept. 98. (thank god). UO in the early years was a disaster. And in an age where there was no voip, nobody (except a rare few) had multiple accounts. 14K modems were the main means of accessing online games. Those limitations and the utter sandbox that was original UO created ridiculous chaos. Hacking, dupping, cheating was rampant, servers were crazy unstable, crashing constantly, rolling back progress by hours typically. It was the wild west, to be sure.
Zorkon said:And that would not include every whiny punk that cried about a Train at ANY point in the zone. Be it zone entrance, bottleneck through a mountain pass or standing out in the middle of a frigging desert. Be aware of your surroundings and it's EASY to avoid a Train.. "get off the tracks!"
An intentional train is if the trainer followed you when you moved out of the way. now THAT'S intentional and should be against a PNP. YOU standing on the tracks and getting hit by a Train more than once is not VR's problem.
See, not so challenging at all... I think I made my point on the topic clear as you have made yours.
It's chalkenging because you keep refusing to answer my question. Which is the main point of my issue. Which means your point has not been clear lol.
So let's make this easy .
Don't say anything related to training other than why you think it's ok to drag 6 mobs thru a zone potentially killing other players, but it's not ok to intentionally drag mobs to players camps.
In both instances you're using game mechanics for personal gain at the expense of others. Is 1 only ok because you are announcing it. Therefore if I shout "train to frenzied", then it makes it ok?
It's about intent. If your group is overwhelmed and runs for the zone to save their lives while shouting train to zone (bonus if they say from where) then it's up to everywhere who might be on main path to find a room to duck into, zone out themselves, or take their chances. Someone else could die to the train but it was fairly uncommon, you are arguing from a position that trains to zone always take out innocent bystanders but they really didn't. Training a group is a dick move because the intent is to disrupt and kill other players, likewise walking into and stealing a camp is a dick move because the intent is to disrupt and take what one wants from other players regardless of how much time/effort they might have put in.
Porygon said:Zorkon said:And that would not include every whiny punk that cried about a Train at ANY point in the zone. Be it zone entrance, bottleneck through a mountain pass or standing out in the middle of a frigging desert. Be aware of your surroundings and it's EASY to avoid a Train.. "get off the tracks!"
An intentional train is if the trainer followed you when you moved out of the way. now THAT'S intentional and should be against a PNP. YOU standing on the tracks and getting hit by a Train more than once is not VR's problem.
See, not so challenging at all... I think I made my point on the topic clear as you have made yours.
It's chalkenging because you keep refusing to answer my question. Which is the main point of my issue. Which means your point has not been clear lol.
So let's make this easy .
Don't say anything related to training other than why you think it's ok to drag 6 mobs thru a zone potentially killing other players, but it's not ok to intentionally drag mobs to players camps.
In both instances you're using game mechanics for personal gain at the expense of others. Is 1 only ok because you are announcing it. Therefore if I shout "train to frenzied", then it makes it ok?
Ok, I can't tell if anyone is serious anymore or just trolling and re-trolling (yes, you heard it first here).
Yes folks, you can, "for personal gain at the expense of others", TRAIN. Just buy my special training DVD at the new low price of 6p. Of course, no guarantee of ever fixed that reputation, but oh well.