OK just because my mind goes a hundred miles an hour non-stop waiting to move into Terminus (oh, and by the way, we should not call it "launch day"....we should call it "move in day")
Anyway, I got to thinking "what would it take to be a sustainable lean business"....just roughly speaking. I came up with this simple math:
president 1
VP 2
sr developers 5
jr developers 10
tech support 5
cust service 5
administration 2
sales & marketing 3
With a payroll of $3M
hardware
rent
utilities
network access
tool licensing
distribution
Operating and distribution costs of about $7M
So, an annual operating cost of about $10M.
Then I figured two expansion per year at $45 each and a monthly subscription fee of $25.
With 25K players you have a revenue stream of $10M
So, simple math says "we need only about 25,000 subscribers" to be sustainable continually. That's a tiny amount. WoW loses more than that every month. EQ had four times as many logged in all at once.
My point is that, once we get rolling, its very realistic that our relatively small niche "old school" mmorpg customer base can sustain this game indefinitely.
Yet the sub fee is $15. Any more than that and people would refuse to pay it. With the amount of games going b2p and f2p now a days, sub models aren't the greatest of shape. So you would need another 18,182 people to make up that loss. Meaning 43,182 people total. While still not a whole lot for an MMO that is still a healthy number needed.
Not saying at all that it is not attainable, because it is.
Edit - Actually, that number isn't correct. At $15 a month and $45 one time per year purchase thats $225 a year per person. So to get the 10m a year you would need 44,445 people.
If it has a good release, and is playable on most PC's, I think it can do much better than that. Vanguard sold a ton of boxes, it just couldn't hold people because it wasn't ready and and needed a pretty powerful PC to run it.
I'm really hoping this does well. If it doesn't, people in the industry are going to have their preconceived notions confirmed that there just isn't a market for these kind of games.
fazool said:OK just because my mind goes a hundred miles an hour non-stop waiting to move into Terminus (oh, and by the way, we should not call it "launch day"....we should call it "move in day")
Anyway, I got to thinking "what would it take to be a sustainable lean business"....just roughly speaking. I came up with this simple math:
president 1
VP 2
sr developers 5
jr developers 10
tech support 5
cust service 5
administration 2
sales & marketing 3With a payroll of $3M
hardware
rent
utilities
network access
tool licensing
distributionOperating and distribution costs of about $7M
So, an annual operating cost of about $10M.
Then I figured two expansion per year at $45 each and a monthly subscription fee of $25.
With 25K players you have a revenue stream of $10M
So, simple math says "we need only about 25,000 subscribers" to be sustainable continually. That's a tiny amount. WoW loses more than that every month. EQ had four times as many logged in all at once.
My point is that, once we get rolling, its very realistic that our relatively small niche "old school" mmorpg customer base can sustain this game indefinitely.
Your point is pointless, because it is not based on anything.
You are grossly unaware of the amount of people following this project. Pantheon has the potential to have 250k subscribers it's first year and well over that, a year out after release. It all depends on how they price their product as premium. There are many discussions about this... I have no idea of those threads were erased when the boards got cleaned up. But there are millions of MMORPOG players that are in limbo right now waiting for new games.
And again, there are more than 25k Vanguard and EQ emulator players alone.. not to mention all the people who are rushing back to EQ progression servers, etc. So you have no fear about Visionary Realm's viability, they are on solid ground, or I would not be here. The question foir VRi is... do they want to serve more than 500k players...? Some major descision there, but all based on what is the busioness model they will take and if they will pander to the upstarts.. There was some really good discussion with how Chris will try to market Pantheon. I am sure more about it will take place once in full development.
Pantheon is going to be evercrack all over.. and will not have a problem with subscribers at all. And money is not an issue for an adult mmorpg gamer and the price won't keep anyone away except fledglings.. To me, Pantheon marks the era of MMORPG 2.0 and it should show at the pump as premium and in the EULA..
I say $100 for Pantheon game & $20/month... and VRi will be able to grow at their own pace and not have to worry one bit about outsiders, or naysayers and WoWtards.. People are not going to pass up Pantheon up because they can't afford it, after they see gameplay they will just rob their neighbors, or friends for their crack habbit. That is how addiction works..
Visionary Realms is going places...
Hieromonk said:...
Your point is pointless, because it is not based on anything.
You are grossly unaware of the amount of people following this project. Pantheon has the potential to have 250k subscribers it's first year and well over that, a year out after release. It all depends on how they price their product as premium. There are many discussions about this... I have no idea of those threads were erased when the boards got cleaned up. But there are millions of MMORPOG players that are in limbo right now waiting for new games.
And again, there are more than 25k Vanguard and EQ emulator players alone.. not to mention all the people who are rushing back to EQ progression servers, etc. So you have no fear about Visionary Realm's viability, they are on solid ground, or I would not be here. The question foir VRi is... do they want to serve more than 500k players...? Some major descision there, but all based on what is the busioness model they will take and if they will pander to the upstarts.. There was some really good discussion with how Chris will try to market Pantheon. I am sure more about it will take place once in full development.
Pantheon is going to be evercrack all over.. and will not have a problem with subscribers at all. And money is not an issue for an adult mmorpg gamer and the price won't keep anyone away except fledglings.. To me, Pantheon marks the era of MMORPG 2.0 and it should show at the pump as premium and in the EULA..
I say $100 for Pantheon game & $20/month... and VRi will be able to grow at their own pace and not have to worry one bit about outsiders, or naysayers and WoWtards.. People are not going to pass up Pantheon up because they can't afford it, after they see gameplay they will just rob their neighbors, or friends for their crack habbit. That is how addiction works..
Visionary Realms is going places...
That's exciting to hear about - I *LOVE* the idea of a huge populaiton and I htink you are right - I'm sort of trying to convince myself that even under worst case scenarios it can last and last.
I agree with you about the premiums btw - I posted about that separately - I want high prices.
Hieromonk said:
And again, there are more than 25k Vanguard and EQ emulator players alone.. not to mention all the people who are rushing back to EQ progression servers, etc.
I say $100 for Pantheon game & $20/month...
So you are basing this off of people playing other games?
People playing on an emu pay nothing to play. People playing on the TLP servers are paying nothing for the most part. Yes there is a sub fee but most are paying via Chrono. At least everyone I know there are. Playing a free game is much different than paying a game you are paying for. Most of the hardcore players will not pay to play EQ anymore.
If you were to set those prices I'm almost 100% sure that possible 250k subs you talked about would be cut in half easily. People these days cry over a $60 game with a $15 sub fee. Hell people still whine about FFXIV's sub and it's been out over awhile now.
I'm not against you here however. I would prefer to pay higher sub prices to keep gold sellers down and keep a cash shop away. I just don't see it happening without driving away a lot of potential players
Enitzu said:... I would prefer to pay higher sub prices to keep gold sellers down and keep a cash shop away. I just don't see it happening without driving away a lot of potential players
Me too. I am hoping (and would prefer) to have 40,000 players paying $30 per month rather than having 100,000 players pay $12 per month
fazool said:Enitzu said:... I would prefer to pay higher sub prices to keep gold sellers down and keep a cash shop away. I just don't see it happening without driving away a lot of potential players
Me too. I am hoping (and would prefer) to have 40,000 players paying $30 per month rather than having 100,000 players pay $12 per month
I understand how some enjoy the feel of a more personal niche community while others believe that the relatively few people here are actually representative of those waiting for a game like Pantheon, but the reality is that what we currently have here is a drop in the bucket of those waiting for a true massively multiplayer online RPG centered around group-play and social interaction.
Besides the fact that limiting exposure to the game makes no sense from a business standpoint (good entertainment spreads virally), I can't really understand why anyone would want to curtail the number of people that could enjoy a game like Pantheon.
Dullahan said:fazool said:Enitzu said:... I would prefer to pay higher sub prices to keep gold sellers down and keep a cash shop away. I just don't see it happening without driving away a lot of potential players
Me too. I am hoping (and would prefer) to have 40,000 players paying $30 per month rather than having 100,000 players pay $12 per month
I understand how some enjoy the feel of a more personal niche community while others believe that the relatively few people here are actually representative of those waiting for a game like Pantheon, but the reality is that what we currently have here is a drop in the bucket of those waiting for a true massively multiplayer online RPG centered around group-play and social interaction.
Besides the fact that limiting exposure to the game makes no sense from a business standpoint (good entertainment spreads virally), I can't really understand why anyone would want to curtail the number of people that could enjoy a game like Pantheon.
Which is why my post said it wouldn't happen. The quoted portion of my post was me saying I would be willing to pay more, not that the general population would. They would not. It would be bad for business and bad for the game as a whole.
Crazzie said:NO way, that is something that anyone should be expecting when you purchase a game. Gold selling is against EULA, and so is advertising for it. So you believe we should pay more to have them out?
when clearly it normally states you cant.
Lol. Gold selling has been against every EULA ever made. But google any games name plus gold and see what pops up. Against the EULA or not, they will be here as they are in every game since forever. Higher prices just makes it more of a gamble for them as they risk losing money instead of making it.
Enitzu said:Yet the sub fee is $15. Any more than that and people would refuse to pay it. With the amount of games going b2p and f2p now a days, sub models aren't the greatest of shape. So you would need another 18,182 people to make up that loss. Meaning 43,182 people total. While still not a whole lot for an MMO that is still a healthy number needed.
Not saying at all that it is not attainable, because it is.
Edit - Actually, that number isn't correct. At $15 a month and $45 one time per year purchase thats $225 a year per person. So to get the 10m a year you would need 44,445 people.
Some people would refuse to pay 5-10 dollar subs, however I personally would be willing to pay 50-100 a month per account for the right game. That's super cheap compared to one meal out with our kids. We already had a huge discussion about this last year and there are plenty on these forums willing to pay 20-30 a month for a game like this.
Niien said:Enitzu said:Yet the sub fee is $15. Any more than that and people would refuse to pay it. With the amount of games going b2p and f2p now a days, sub models aren't the greatest of shape. So you would need another 18,182 people to make up that loss. Meaning 43,182 people total. While still not a whole lot for an MMO that is still a healthy number needed.
Not saying at all that it is not attainable, because it is.
Edit - Actually, that number isn't correct. At $15 a month and $45 one time per year purchase thats $225 a year per person. So to get the 10m a year you would need 44,445 people.
Some people would refuse to pay 5-10 dollar subs, however I personally would be willing to pay 50-100 a month per account for the right game. That's super cheap compared to one meal out with our kids. We already had a huge discussion about this last year and there are plenty on these forums willing to pay 20-30 a month for a game like this.
Lol you are welcome to pay $50 a month for a sub however I would be out at this point. No matter how good the game is I wouldn't pay $50. There are too many other games on the market I can play that keep me interested. Hell I could buy a new game every month for that cost. Having a price that high would destroy the potential community
Niien said:Enitzu said:Yet the sub fee is $15. Any more than that and people would refuse to pay it. With the amount of games going b2p and f2p now a days, sub models aren't the greatest of shape. So you would need another 18,182 people to make up that loss. Meaning 43,182 people total. While still not a whole lot for an MMO that is still a healthy number needed.
Not saying at all that it is not attainable, because it is.
Edit - Actually, that number isn't correct. At $15 a month and $45 one time per year purchase thats $225 a year per person. So to get the 10m a year you would need 44,445 people.
Some people would refuse to pay 5-10 dollar subs, however I personally would be willing to pay 50-100 a month per account for the right game. That's super cheap compared to one meal out with our kids. We already had a huge discussion about this last year and there are plenty on these forums willing to pay 20-30 a month for a game like this.
20 dollars is a lot to pay every month for one game unless the price included new content for free
On the other hand. I'd be willing to commit for a year at a time for a discounted price over the monthly fee..
Enitzu said:Niien said:Enitzu said:Yet the sub fee is $15. Any more than that and people would refuse to pay it. With the amount of games going b2p and f2p now a days, sub models aren't the greatest of shape. So you would need another 18,182 people to make up that loss. Meaning 43,182 people total. While still not a whole lot for an MMO that is still a healthy number needed.
Not saying at all that it is not attainable, because it is.
Edit - Actually, that number isn't correct. At $15 a month and $45 one time per year purchase thats $225 a year per person. So to get the 10m a year you would need 44,445 people.
Some people would refuse to pay 5-10 dollar subs, however I personally would be willing to pay 50-100 a month per account for the right game. That's super cheap compared to one meal out with our kids. We already had a huge discussion about this last year and there are plenty on these forums willing to pay 20-30 a month for a game like this.
Lol you are welcome to pay $50 a month for a sub however I would be out at this point. No matter how good the game is I wouldn't pay $50. There are too many other games on the market I can play that keep me interested. Hell I could buy a new game every month for that cost. Having a price that high would destroy the potential community
And herein lies the difference between you, and most people on this forum.
I myself scoff at paying 60$ for even major titles like Fallout 4, or Doom, or Dark Souls 3.... and they are some of my favorite games.... except that they've been getting less fun with each release. They just don't grab me, no games do these days, so 50-100$ a month sub for a game like Everquest 2.0 without the SOE? Sign me up.
I do not think however that they should begin that way, business wise, I'd say stick to 15$, and if for some retarded reason (It won't happen) you can't get enough players to pay for the game, get with the community and tell us what you need and we'll pay it.
I wouldn't pay $50 per month for a game unless there's something under my desk that tickles my fancy.
On the other hand, from the 80's onward, I have just about every console system, hundreds of games, archives of computer games, and I've spent the past month busting my balls trying to figure out what to play because there is nothing available that interests me. I've spent hours browsing Steam, Google Play store, etc. and NOTHING interests me. It's Pantheon, that's what I want to play. I did just begin Path of Exile last night, hopefully that keeps me occupied.
But $50/month ... nah. Now if VR came out and said, "hey guys, we're doing a donation drive, we really need your help," I'd throw money in. Heck, here I am, I've donated money already without a product even.
Max I'd do is $25/month and I plan on paying for 2 or 3 accounts (I have kids). Hit $26 and I'm out, because I expect to pay upward of $50 for meaningful expansions as they come.
Dullahan said:Enitzu said:Niien said:Enitzu said:Yet the sub fee is $15. Any more than that and people would refuse to pay it. With the amount of games going b2p and f2p now a days, sub models aren't the greatest of shape. So you would need another 18,182 people to make up that loss. Meaning 43,182 people total. While still not a whole lot for an MMO that is still a healthy number needed.
Not saying at all that it is not attainable, because it is.
Edit - Actually, that number isn't correct. At $15 a month and $45 one time per year purchase thats $225 a year per person. So to get the 10m a year you would need 44,445 people.
Some people would refuse to pay 5-10 dollar subs, however I personally would be willing to pay 50-100 a month per account for the right game. That's super cheap compared to one meal out with our kids. We already had a huge discussion about this last year and there are plenty on these forums willing to pay 20-30 a month for a game like this.
Lol you are welcome to pay $50 a month for a sub however I would be out at this point. No matter how good the game is I wouldn't pay $50. There are too many other games on the market I can play that keep me interested. Hell I could buy a new game every month for that cost. Having a price that high would destroy the potential community
And herein lies the difference between you, and most people on this forum.
As others have already stated, you are wrong. Not everyone will pay $50 a month sub for a game. Whether it's this one or not. $30 a month, sure. Maybe even 40. But 50 a month is just flat out being greedy and there would be no point to play because it would be servers devoid of life. 100 people does not equal good server health. Especially in a group based game. If you look at the last line of my post you quoted, "Having a price that high would destroy the potential community" which in turn kills the game.
Enitzu said:As others have already stated, you are wrong. Not everyone will pay $50 a month sub for a game. Whether it's this one or not. $30 a month, sure. Maybe even 40. But 50 a month is just flat out being greedy and there would be no point to play because it would be servers devoid of life. 100 people does not equal good server health. Especially in a group based game. If you look at the last line of my post you quoted, "Having a price that high would destroy the potential community" which in turn kills the game.
I didn't claim they would. The point was more along the lines of, we think differently about Pantheon and MMOs in general because we don't have "many other games on the market" that keep us interested. Hence our more hardline stance on Pantheon and yours being one of pragmatism and compromise.
I knew a guy who thought like you once. He had an amazing company and product, but his unwillingness to remain true to his brand, self proclaimed "forward thinking" and trend chasing ended up costing him his business, and eventually his job. Later, his company was sold out from under him, and he got the boot. Unfortunately for that company, it didn't happen soon enough, because the "great plans" the guy had were deemed unachieveable and eventually cancelled, all because he couldn't see all along that what people wanted was what made his company popular in the first place.