I had an idea after reading some of the mentoring and progeny posts lately.
Perhaps lets look at combining the progeny, mentor system into one remort system.
I also throw in the Project M from Everquest also for fun.
I knew I started a thread on this before so reusing this thread instead of a new one.
I think I capture each scenario a player would need to have reguarding replayability, balance on mentor scaling and while maintaining already earned achievements.
Option 1.)
The player could permanently remort to level 1 for say some extra stat or resist bonus and or change race/class and they keep all skills and spells found and gear etc. Basically start over at level 1 but all the keys/skills/spells will remain. It will just be leveling up from 1 again and perhaps you want to race change or try a new class. Given a new class, skills and spells would be zero for that new class. Also you keep the same name.
Option 2.)
This is a twist on option 1 for the people who want to keep the higher level toon. After remorting the orginal player would make a new name. The new toon receives half the extra bonus as would a player via option 1 but no skills/keys flags/gear etc from the original toon. When the player reaches max level again the new toon can stay as it is or merge with the original toon. If merged one can choose either name, and the skills/keys/items would all becomes one character. The character would overall receive less bonus as option 1 but the keep the ability to play there max level toon and receive a second alt either of a new class or the same class that has slightly better stats.
Option 3.)
The player can keep the original character and create a temporary toon at a certain level with appropriate skills levels. Gear could be created for the toon that’s appropriate for the level or the player would have to gear the toon from their bank. This toon would exist until destroyed and the original max level char would again become playable. The toon would also not gain levels or any experience.
Option 4.) Mini-Game
Maybe you are bored on a Sunday afternoon and instead want to go play as a NPC. This same system could allow one to take control or log into a NPC in certain zones and attack players. Gives some some fun to players and also adds a dynamic element to zones as now players can be behind some NPCs.
So
Example 1, max level wants to start over and replay the game a little bit stronger and maybe different race and or try a new class. So they remort and go to level 1 and off they go. This person could be a raider taking some time off between expansions or just a normal character who wants to experience a new race or class but do it with a slight edge.
Example 2, max level player wants to continue raiding or have access to original toon but also wants an alt or use the remort system. They create a new toon using the system, level it up and either keep both or merge into one. This would be useful if the raid classes needs shifted into needing more of one class. This would allow a person to make a new class that's slightly better than a fresh character and once max level they can raid with it or merge with the orginal to get the previous toon’s raiding flags/gear/skills etc and then proceed with the guild with no back flagging.
Example 3, a player has a friend they want to play with, they use the same system but instead, they make a new char of the same class that cannot exceed the level of the original character, stats are maxed for that level. The player then gears that toon from a bank or accepts level appropriate summoned gear; then off they go to play with the friend. The original max level toon is locked for playing until the lower level toon is canceled/deleted or whatever.
Example 4, a player can control maybe a level range NPC equivalent to that of the original character.
This NPC would be temporary and upon death or logging out you burn up a token. Perhaps 3 NPC tokens per allowable zone per week or something.
Thoughts?
Surprised DDO's Reincarnation hasn't come up. They basically let you destroy your character to re-roll a new one in the new slot, with new bonuses.
I'm personally torn on systems like these. I am the person who -will- go through all the "past lives" necessary, for sure, because hey I tend to like rolling new characters and I'm getting those bonuses. The problem I have experienced (and the problem that saw me quitting DDO) was that I had little to no connection to these temporary characters. Not the kind I had with my original "main" for whom I was doing it to begin with.
As a result of that experience, I would personally prefer if this system allowed for the bonuses to be applied to the character of your choice. If I adore my 4 characters, play them all, develop them all to the point where the progeny system would give me rewards, can I not simply have them apply them to my "main" character?
I realize the system is largely up in the air. Just giving my coppers.
Until it's more powerful than having a Max Level Alt, fewer people will use it, given the same time investment.
Once it's more powerful than having a Max Level Alt, more people will use it, given the same time investment.
Up to the point where it will be perceived as being "required" at the exact moment it objectively/mathematcially IS more powerful than having a Max Level Alt, given the same time investment. Especially with the whole "you can only have one crafting/tradeskill profession per character" thing.
I am not sure that the difference between the concept (not specific details) of remort and the concept of progeny is any more than semantics.
What is the *real* difference betwen "retiring" a character and starting a new one with certain benefits because of some kind of link to the retired character, or keeping the original character alive and well but through some kind of magic changing him or her to a level one with certain benefits because of some kind of link to ...him or her self.
Personally I have a strong preference for the remort semantics. I would rather turn my level 115 elf captain into a level 1 dwarf champion (classes, races and levels taken from LOTRO) than delete the captain and create a new champion. This maintains continuity and a sense of connection to the character I spent so much time on.
Totally semantics since the level 1 dwarf champion is identical either way, and I no longer have a level 115 captain either way.
Keep the progeny system you are working on, do not use the term remort, just ...transform the high level don't .... murder her.
Please ((wheedles)).
I personally love the idea. But people that just want one character shouldnt feel that this character is a detriment. Maybe some sort of veteran reward at max level similar to the progeny buff? Could be attained after getting max exp? Like a final ding of the level and once you have it you are basically a progeny of yourself?
kreed99 said:I personally love the idea. But people that just want 1 character shouldnt feel that this character is a detriment. Maybe some sort of veteran reward at max level similar to the progeny buff?
It is one character. There have been games with this type of system where you keep the same name. It is in essense the same character reincarnated. You can continue as the same race/class if you want it to be as close to your previous playthrough as possible...or you can try out other options.
Kittik said:There will be some raid guild, and eventually groups and eventually all guilds that will require you to have Progenied 4 times before they let you in.
Easy enough: No stacking buffs. One and done - You get one variable progeny buff. Maybe that buff is only available after the max level is dinged. So everyone is on an even playing field at max level, or you get a slight advantage at lower levels.
Some people might not have the playtime available or just dont want to go through it again, but if they have a veteran that they can still play they wont feel as slighted to start a progeny alt. And the buff won't be broken so that you have to progeny four times just to get max benefit.
I can however forsee certain classes wanting ac or spell shield or atk or some other form of buff, so maybe the veteran reward if something you can choose? Again, even playing field at max level.
I just get redirected to your post above.
I will never “delete” or remort or start over a character for any benefit. I want alts and options with benefits. So any option that doesnt keep my main at full level i wont use. I dont care how beneficial. I would rather just start a new character of the class i want. To restart a new character the system would have to offer a HUGE benefit which would probably break the game in a way that it shouldn't.
kreed99 said:I just get redirected to your post above.
I will never “delete” or remort or start over a character for any benefit. I want alts and options with benefits. So any option that doesnt keep my main at full level i wont use. I dont care how beneficial. I would rather just start a new character of the class i want. To restart a new character the system would have to offer a HUGE benefit which would probably break the game in a way that it shouldn't.
Yeah thats option 2.
Either way. Just some thoughts I had on pleasing people. with various options.
I for one am looking forward to the ability to use option 1 or the orginal progengy system as I hope it stays in as orginally described.
Putting gear with remort restrictions again call for throw away toons and actually feels like you would purposefully under develop your character and speed through a game where adventure is the fun part just to get said gear.
Again I feel like titles or trying out new classes and going through new areas that you missed before is a better option, just my opinion though.
eldrun said:Putting gear with remort restrictions again call for throw away toons and actually feels like you would purposefully under develop your character and speed through a game where adventure is the fun part just to get said gear.
Again I feel like titles or trying out new classes and going through new areas that you missed before is a better option, just my opinion though.
People will do that anyways. Also please look at the post dates. It matters. My new version seems to fit what most people want. The remort points served nothing more then status symbols really the same way as time played or account age. Also the remort gear was very few and not that much better.
Kittik said:There will be some raid guild, and eventually groups and eventually all guilds that will require you to have Progenied 4 times before they let you in.
I can see this happening years down the road if it provides enough benefit and content is challenging enough.
But even if you look at wow before the revamped the racials, most top guilds didnt require you to be a troll for berserking. Their were plenty of ud rogues.
Honestly this comment and point of view is more of an outsider looking in perspective. Most players In high end guilds dont expect other players especially pugs to take the game as serious as them. The fear of something like gearscore happening in this game is prevalent but unwarranted. Gearscore only happened in wow because the game was so watered down and there were so many people playing. That never happened in EQ unless you consider requiring a 10k tank for tipt/vxed but that was more "we need this" as opposed to "we want this"
I don't see the elitist mindset regarding grouping to really come to play in this game. You might always have the person here or there that does it. But most of us know that the skill outweighs the gear more often than not.
Porygon said:Kittik said:There will be some raid guild, and eventually groups and eventually all guilds that will require you to have Progenied 4 times before they let you in.
I don't see the elitist mindset regarding grouping to really come to play in this game. You might always have the person here or there that does it. But most of us know that the skill outweighs the gear more often than not.
This is pretty situational, I say it has a good mix.
A tank that has to hold aggro is going to hold aggro better with proc gear and survive longer with more hp/ac gear.
A cleric with double the mana pool is going to be much more effective than one with half even if the second is a better cleric.
A rogue with better daggereally will take down an enemy faster.
Now from a ench/control aspect this shouldn’t matter as much because the fight should be over before an cc Is no longer available.
The question is, in limited group who would you rather have? Or a raid? The person with the better gear. Because they are more affective.
So if progenies give you benefits, in the end it’s pretty required .
eldrun said:So if progenies give you benefits, in the end it’s pretty required .
So the question is the bonus. And seems like it needs to not be combat or balance base but utility or even something beyond that.
Throw out ideas. Maybe the remort can be the equilivant to veterans rewards in EQ. IN the end your not deleting a toon but just going back to level 1 and keeping everything you have gotten.
eldrun said:Porygon said:Kittik said:There will be some raid guild, and eventually groups and eventually all guilds that will require you to have Progenied 4 times before they let you in.
I don't see the elitist mindset regarding grouping to really come to play in this game. You might always have the person here or there that does it. But most of us know that the skill outweighs the gear more often than not.
This is pretty situational, I say it has a good mix.
A tank that has to hold aggro is going to hold aggro better with proc gear and survive longer with more hp/ac gear.
A cleric with double the mana pool is going to be much more effective than one with half even if the second is a better cleric.
A rogue with better daggereally will take down an enemy faster.
Now from a ench/control aspect this shouldn’t matter as much because the fight should be over before an cc Is no longer available.
The question is, in limited group who would you rather have? Or a raid? The person with the better gear. Because they are more affective.
So if progenies give you benefits, in the end it’s pretty required .
Most eq guilds only required basic AAs that improved your class. Not all of the fractional dps or hps increases that were available. Theres no reason to think that randomly all of the sudden people will want you to be 100% min maxed.
Also aggro in this game doesnt look to be anything like it is in eq via damage and procs. There seems to be quite a few abilities that will establish aggro and or generate "hate". When the game becomes more centralized around abilities rather than auto attack that's when skill becomes more and more important.
Porygon said:eldrun said:Porygon said:Kittik said:There will be some raid guild, and eventually groups and eventually all guilds that will require you to have Progenied 4 times before they let you in.
I don't see the elitist mindset regarding grouping to really come to play in this game. You might always have the person here or there that does it. But most of us know that the skill outweighs the gear more often than not.
This is pretty situational, I say it has a good mix.
A tank that has to hold aggro is going to hold aggro better with proc gear and survive longer with more hp/ac gear.
A cleric with double the mana pool is going to be much more effective than one with half even if the second is a better cleric.
A rogue with better daggereally will take down an enemy faster.
Now from a ench/control aspect this shouldn’t matter as much because the fight should be over before an cc Is no longer available.
The question is, in limited group who would you rather have? Or a raid? The person with the better gear. Because they are more affective.
So if progenies give you benefits, in the end it’s pretty required .
Most eq guilds only required basic AAs that improved your class. Not all of the fractional dps or hps increases that were available. Theres no reason to think that randomly all of the sudden people will want you to be 100% min maxed.
Also aggro in this game doesnt look to be anything like it is in eq via damage and procs. There seems to be quite a few abilities that will establish aggro and or generate "hate". When the game becomes more centralized around abilities rather than auto attack that's when skill becomes more and more important.
Sorry I was just making an example, I understand the game will be differnt than others.
Zeem said:eldrun said:So if progenies give you benefits, in the end it’s pretty required .
So the question is the bonus. And seems like it needs to not be combat or balance base but utility or even something beyond that.
Throw out ideas. Maybe the remort can be the equilivant to veterans rewards in EQ. IN the end your not deleting a toon but just going back to level 1 and keeping everything you have gotten.
The bonus would be to play an amazing game again from a different perspectibe/area. If you play with level 50 gear at level 1 where’s the challenge the Dev team is trying to provide?
If progeny were to give you 1% increased stats each time you rerolled... that would still not be enough to warrant guilds "requiring" you to be at progeny4 or however you want to list it. The timesink alone negates that.
Now if the raids in the game were reaching mythic wow world firsts... I could see a guild maybe... maybe asking its members to do it.
VR is not dumb. They aren't going to make it something that breaks the game. Have faith.
Porygon said: VR is not dumb. They aren't going to make it something that breaks the game. Have faith.
I had the same opinion until I saw the first video where they demo'd how to maliciously train your group with Feign Death, and there is every indication that ability will go to launch unchanged.
I have very little faith in MMO devs. After 20+ years of seeing repeated mistakes, I have skepticism, criticism, and the curse of experience and history. All of those? They tell me if there is an opportunity for a developer to muck it up? They might. Just like they have demonstrated with Feign Death. It could be argued that FD "breaks the game" in some pretty significant ways, especially given how socially toxic it is, and that's the antithesis of the primary retention mechanism of the game. (social grouping)
So, for Progeny, it's a flagship / distinctive feature. Logically, it can be assessed, and as outlined so far it's extremely difficult to implement in a way that is either balanced or isn't unbalanced.
dorotea said:I know it is off topic but I strongly agree with vjek.
Allowing use of feign death to pvp other players on a pve server is a *really* bad decision and I hope they totally reverse it. Not everything that was in EQ is *good*.
Well the only option I see to get around that is making it so mobs don't aggro other players once engaged/pulled. I think it's worse to have dull mob AI that prevents the danger of trains (the need of awareness of others) in dungeons and just casually return to spawn regardless of seeing other people beating up their buddies or not.
Punish intentional training and it's all good. Screen capture/recording is simple and prevalent in modern times, nowhere near as taxing as it was in the past. I imagine they can also give themselves tools to map out a characters actions with little difficulty.