Mordac said:Here's the million-dollar question:
Is $14.99 a month enough to provide us with the game we all want to play? A game that is maintained, sufficiently regulated (GMs), and free from the modern crap we all hate like cash shops. Is this enough of a revenue stream to encourage expansions and continued game development?
Those who argue the sub should be more than $15 clearly don't think so. But let me ask you: Why not? If every other subscription game gets by with this, why not Pantheon?
Because every other sub game compromises on vision to gather enough subs to have enough revenue. They make it solo friendly, for example, to gather the solo demographic. Then they add in a cash shop to add the pay-2-win demographic. They add horrific pointless PvP to gather the PvP demographic. Then they remove GM's, halt expansion development, lay off all the smart people, and put the game on minimal off-shore support just so it can barely turn a profit. Why? Because Finance is driving the Bus. :)
With the niche mechanics demonstrated/revealed thus far, Pantheon is in the tens of thousands of subs category, not hundreds of thousands of subs, if history is any indication.
Also, "getting by", financially, is a moving target. It's trivial to figure out the minimal sub count to break even when your opex costs are known. Adding each new FTE literally translates into requiring "this many" new permanent subscriptions. Yet, they keep adding people...
Everyone here makes valid points. I'm confused by this:
At one point in MMO history, $15 a month was enough to be profitable. I know this from playing EQ2, Vanguard, WoW etc. They flourished at $15, before cash shops and F2P mechanics were conceived. If you are making the argument that costs today are so much higher and devs need more, how the heck do these F2P and B2P games survive? Bear in mind that just about any busniess owner will tell you that a guaranteed monthly income is invaluable, as it allows you to budget and make long-term plans. Those F2P/B2P games must have just as many free-loaders who play for nothing, as they do people who spend money in the cash-shop. Do those cash shop sales really equate to more than a guaranteed $15/month from every player?
Mordac said:Everyone here makes valid points. I'm confused by this:
At one point in MMO history, $15 a month was enough to be profitable. I know this from playing EQ2, Vanguard, WoW etc. They flourished at $15, before cash shops and F2P mechanics were conceived. If you are making the argument that costs today are so much higher and devs need more, how the heck do these F2P and B2P games survive? Bear in mind that just about any busniess owner will tell you that a guaranteed monthly income is invaluable, as it allows you to budget and make long-term plans. Those F2P/B2P games must have just as many free-loaders who play for nothing, as they do people who spend money in the cash-shop. Do those cash shop sales really equate to more than a guaranteed $15/month from every player?
Yes. Pay2Win is an incredibly powerful drug. And whales will pay hundreds or thousands per month, each.
Mordac said:You make perfect sense, except fancy didn't make up the $15 figure.
You miss the point. It's not the $15 figure, it's the arbitrary decision that another $15 a month(total of $30) means the game shouldn't even exist if it has to be priced that way? How absurd.
Mordac said:...it's been in place for as long as MMOs have been around. Looking at it logically you should consider spending more, considering the hours of entertainment you'll likely get from Patheon. But, does VR want to be the first to challenge this axiom of the gaming industry? Can they afford to be?
EXACTLY!
How much money did a credit hour at your local university cost in 1999 or a whopper at burger king? 1/3 the price of what they are today. People want MORE without paying more. We want some super special new game that isn't like anything else that has great features and support, and we want to pay the same price we paid for WOW 15 years ago.
I get what you're saying about risk, but this is a capitalist society. Value is defined by the market. If VR creates an experience that has good VALUE at $30/mo, regardless of what other games cost, they will be successful. You can easily make the argument that a F2P game has LESS value than a game that costs $15/mo or more, depending on what you get out of those games.
If I get out of Pantheon what many of us got out of Vanguard and EQ, I would gladly pay WAY more than $15/mo.
I just had an idea, you could do what they do on Itch.io and have a minimum price for the sub, but could 'name your price' past that. This way if people really want to show their support for VR they could pay more for the monthly sub if they want to without the risk of 'pay 2 win'.
Krixus said:EXACTLY!
How much money did a credit hour at your local university cost in 1999 or a whopper at burger king? 1/3 the price of what they are today. People want MORE without paying more. We want some super special new game that isn't like anything else that has great features and support, and we want to pay the same price we paid for WOW 15 years ago.
I get what you're saying about risk, but this is a capitalist society. Value is defined by the market. If VR creates an experience that has good VALUE at $30/mo, regardless of what other games cost, they will be successful. You can easily make the argument that a F2P game has LESS value than a game that costs $15/mo or more, depending on what you get out of those games.
If I get out of Pantheon what many of us got out of Vanguard and EQ, I would gladly pay WAY more than $15/mo.
University is maybe a bad example, cause that's a frickin racket. I have no othe choice if I want a college education, as everyone else is charging the same. Burger King a little iffy too, cause a similar burger at the competitors costs the same. What you're saying is that Pantheon should charge way more than anyone else, and justify it with a superior product. You basically want them to be the Apple of the MMO industry. I get that. But the higher you set the bar, the farther you have to fall. VR is small potatotes compared to Blizzard, Turbine etc. They have limited resources to recover from a huge pricing blunder at launch. I fear that it could be just enough to sink their game for good in the eyes of potential players. Let's not forget about Vanguard. The bad rep it gained in the first month or so was devestating for the life of the game.
Krixus , I totally agree I myself would pay 50 $ per month knowing that going to the movies for any couple equals that 50 $ for what ????? 2 hours of entertainment ???
Realistically 50 $ is most likey off putting to many folks . But each individual has thier own price on entertainment .
I think its totally realistic and benificial to start with a 24,99 $ monthly sub .. many seem to think because its easier to make a game what with Technology advances but people are still behind the machine /boggles mind . teams and people still need to be paid not only for the Expansion we so readly await but to allow those making the Expansion money to feed themselves .. geez how many of us buy a starbucks ? Perhaps enjoy the movies ? books ? has anyone read one lately ? 8-18 $ per book depending on your reading enjoyment .
So lets say your the type that likes casual play time , well 24,99 $ buys you all the time you want :) at average of 30 days I'd say your coming out ahead , for those that play 25/8 ( myself included ) I WIN I pay less then 83 cents a day for 24 hours of enjoyment .. Beat that starbuck double shot :):)
Folks, Brad replied to this on page 2, we are not taking any feedback on this though, we iwll let you all know when the time is right but expect an industry standard price point: https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/2564/subscription-model/view/post_id/36783
"I've said all of this before but it does come up often, so I don't mind re-stating this when necessary:
First, no F2P/pay-to-win/cash shops. Period.
We will either use the good old sub model, or possibly a modular model, where you pay for the game, then each expansion, etc. We're not ready to set that in stone.
As for what the sub would be, the plan is the traditional $15 a month. Yes, we have talked with each other and the community and I think a lot of players, assuming we do make a great game, would pay more. And maybe we do explore premium servers. It's all possible. But, in general, if we go subs, to play Pantheon after the trial period, it would be $15 a month."
I think free market forces will apply. It isn’t what it costs, but whether I feel good about the purchase. If the sub fee is higher, but that fee goes towards the regular production of meaningful content, then I’ll be happy. If the price is comparable to other games, and that doesn’t happen, I’ll be unhappy. My hope in supporting this game is a responsive and active dev team that actually plays the game. That’s worth a lot to me.
Hello everyone. Topic on subscription per month. I would not mind paying $15, it is reasonable. For premium servers $20 or so not bad, basically pay additional $5 more or such as an upgrade. Also if they have a 12 months supscription rate, that would be good too. Usually 12 months rate save you some money.
My thoughts: (assuming you start with 5 character slots w/ normal account)
12.99 a month - 2 less character slots
14.99 a month - normal character slots
16.99 a month - additional 2 character slots
then span each of those out for the 3/6/9/12 month plan based on the monthly cost.
As someone who is looking to only play 1 character, the cheaper plan really helps out, it's small but it's helpful. Might even be able to do 3/6/9/12 month plan on that. If it's just $15 a month, then i'll probably only do month to month payments. :( yes, for some, that small decrease matters when you living month to month paychecks.
Something else, I remember back in EQ we use to on someone's birthday pull our money together and pay a month for someone's birthday. So it would be nice if you could go thru the website and pay for a month sub and get a code that you can give to someone that would give them 1 month already paid to their account. Also means we don't have to contact a GM or the company when we want to do something like this and jump thru all the redtape and hoops.
Just my thoughts
dayhjawk said:Something else, I remember back in EQ we use to on someone's birthday pull our money together and pay a month for someone's birthday. So it would be nice if you could go thru the website and pay for a month sub and get a code that you can give to someone that would give them 1 month already paid to their account. Also means we don't have to contact a GM or the company when we want to do something like this and jump thru all the redtape and hoops.
That's a really nice thing to do, and a good idea.