I'd pay $100/mo+ for an MMO that would maintain a high level of quality for an extensive period of time. Even at that pricepoint it would be equally or less expensive than a ton of other common forms of entertainment. Precedent can't be understated, though, and $15 is pretty much the golden standard for the past decade or more for MMO subscriptions.
I still want to see a service-based shop on the website (not in the game UI) for server transfers, account transfers, renames, guild renames, etc. It'd be cool if people didn't have to delete their characters to avoid stalking or some other types of harrassment, and I guarantee that there will be a lot of interest in server transfers/account transfers.
Liav said:I'd pay $100/mo+ for an MMO that would maintain a high level of quality for an extensive period of time. Even at that pricepoint it would be equally or less expensive than a ton of other common forms of entertainment.
I do find it laughable that the idea of asking for more than $14.99 a month sets so many people off when those same people blindly fork over many times that for other entertainment. How much are people paying for basic cable these days? Or base level cable internet? Or their cell phone service? Or how much they spend on going out to each each month? And what about going to a single movie?
I too will pay quite a lot per month for better services, both in game and out.
vjek said:Potentially being higher priced isn't going to be what reduces the target demographic below sustainability numbers. They might as well go higher, given the niche they're trying to fill. I'd be happy to pay a higher sub if it means they avoid a Pay2Win ItemsWithStats Cash Shop.
I hope you're right, but I'm not convinced. if the info at mmorpg is correct, then Pantheon would be the only sub over $15. If so many would happily pay more, why haven't other developers tried it?
I'm with you, I'd pay more to keep P2W away from this game. I don't even want cosmetic fluff to be purchaseable with real money. But some mmo marketing ppl long ago decided that $15 was the sweet spot, and I don't know if Pantheon is in a position to challenge this, not at least until they are better established.
Vandraad said:Liav said:I'd pay $100/mo+ for an MMO that would maintain a high level of quality for an extensive period of time. Even at that pricepoint it would be equally or less expensive than a ton of other common forms of entertainment.
I do find it laughable that the idea of asking for more than $14.99 a month sets so many people off when those same people blindly fork over many times that for other entertainment. How much are people paying for basic cable these days? Or base level cable internet? Or their cell phone service? Or how much they spend on going out to each each month? And what about going to a single movie?
I too will pay quite a lot per month for better services, both in game and out.
I'd be fine with paying double of the industry standard if most of that money was invested back into the game by hiring additional developers, creating content, server-infrastructure and customer support.
Make subscription tiers that add perks that are not game breaking, pay-to-win stuff. Like the basic sub might be 14.99 USD, but for 25, you get 5 extra character slots. I'm not overly creative, but I'd imagine they could come up with ways to make it lucrative to subscribe without breaking the game, and keeping a lower sub tier there for people who don't have lots of disposable cash.
Had an idea.
Let's say you're willing to pay $25 a month. They could offer a package where if you pay upfront, $300, you get the next expansion pack free. It may not be that simple, but it illustrates the thought.
hmm $39.99 per expansion (lets say 2/yr if we want to be greedy).. so $80/yr comes out to about $7/mo. So, instead of charging $15/mo .. charge me $30/mo sub fee and dont charge for additional content. I think $30/mo is well within reason for a well supported game with active GMs and Devs.
The breakdown for sub fees for what I would expect are as follows:
FTP - a half finished game that was abandoned by the developers and are trying to recuperate money through in-game cash market. (or just a korean mmo)
$7/mo an almost finished game that didn't quite get there, and has limited GM support and almost no dev team.
$15/mo a mostly finished game with several bugs still; with limited GM support and a small dev team.
$22/mo a finished and well tested game with great GM support and a moderate dev team.
$30/mo a completed game that is well tested with great GM interaction and support and a wonderful and active dev team. (what one can hope for any game)
Aradune said:Hieromonk said:Brad,
Again, speaking from the past on threads long forgotten, I think you can easily get $20/month ($240/year) @ 500k subs, within the first year. But @ $15/month ($180/year), I feel that Visionary Realms will sell themsevles too short, & have to open up too many starting servers & grow too fast... and have too much noise from some extra ~200k more noobs who are just not yet ready for Pantheon. (I am being conservative with my numbers)
Point being, is that Visionary Realms should be thinking and leaning towards "Premium Servers" as their niche. Part of their mantra.
There is not a game today... that has active Guides and GM in them, like early EQ had.
I think VRi has a chance to set a new standard in the MMORPG arena and offer Pantheon as "premium". The over all cost to Visionary Realms would be nominal to have a GMs & Guide program again. If that is unfeasable as a whole. Then at least some "Premium Servers" based on the concept of premium role playing experience, where your Character is assured free play. At a cost of +$5/month more. ($180/year -vs- $240/year ..?)
So, to the end user is paying $60 more a year... To KNOW you have active Gm & Guides in game.. and be called upon when you find a gold farmer, or gold spammer..? And/Or, servers where bored GM & Guides take over npcs in the wilderness and roleplay with them, taking a snake into town/market and biting people for 1pt of dmg piosning them, etc..
A game world, where a Game Master (& Guides) actively participating on that server. (Personally, I believe this is a tenent of MMORPG long lost forgotten.)
You may very well be right. And if we did charge more, that's what we would do with it -- make sure your money is spent on making a better game for you, a better experience, better CS, etc.
But at this point, the plan is (for regular servers at least) to charge $15. I think it would be foolish of us to proclaim 'we are a premium MMO and therefore we are going to charge everyone more!'
I do like the idea of being thought of as a premium MMO developer -- but I think we have to earn that respect first.
I respect this. Too many want something without earning it. Earn it, and they will come. :p
Not sure if its feasible but since I have already paid like most on here an upfront fee as a donor, I would have no problem doing something like what Lotro did with an initial lifetime sub of I believe it was $200 dollars. You had to pay for new content but I have gone back and played Lotro several dif times over the years as they put in new content and they also gave out game cash, called Station Cash, you could spend in the store to buy the new content, along with alot of other stuff. So last time I looked I had like 30,000 coins or some such that just keeps piling up 500 a month. Thats 5 bucks a month but it adds up and if you feel like playing other games you can and come back later. I like to bounce around if I get bored/get to the end of new content. So if VR would want a nice pool of cash up front thats one way to do it BUT there would be no recurring sub to play each month. One stop shop and your done and you never have to worry about not being a sub so cant use gear etc. We were/are called VIPs and get to use whatever new came/comes out BUT we did have to buy the new content so its a pro and a con AND we could use the Station Cash to buy new content. I like it and wish more games would do it. Right now you cant buy Mordor with the cash but you will be able to supposedly in December. Atm I am playing a char from 1st lvl so I can do the hobbit run to Mount Doom and I should be just going to Mordor when I can buy it for Station Cash so no money out of pocket.
Pantheon will become my computer game home. Meaning I’ll likely stop playing all the others. Ill likely play 60 hours per month. 15 hours/week. A little more than two hours/day. The cost per hour for me is incredibly low. $15/month is $.25/hour. It’s true when you compare to any other form of entertainment, it’s downright cheap. A movie cost $12.95 here. One movie, two hours. Personally I hope VR charges at least $25./month.
I agree with Questaar. Putting up a monthly fee of certain amount would also keep casual annoyances at bay, or the more greedy or lazy ones.
... untill, for some, discover Pantheon's cheeper than smoking.
Also something to consider is alpha and beta and having the privilege of contributing to the new game. Aside special editions of expansions, I would like to see some incentive for donations higher then a monthly fee to keep quality up in compensation for the less fortunate, after launch.
My personal motivation is that I like what VR is doing and like to contribute on that. At the moment that is limited to spamming idea's, views, money for paychecks and spreading word (am I overlooking something?).
I just hope nothing happens like CBS did to Star Trek fans. I like sending off old timers, up to a point, but when that led to stripping the name from my extra donation, that felt like a bad joke.. especially considering the old actors who did so much for the series (rant).
Whatever the price point is that lets them keep a thriving subscription base, support the game, and make a profit... I'm good with.
Something I think would possibly work: One monthly rate for access to the game, and a second rate that gives you access to the game, the BASE expansions when they come out (meaning if they have different versions of the expansion that give extra stuff, you can buy the extra stuff if you want it), and access to testing for each of the expansions.
Soo... if $15 winds up being the basic monthly access rate, then $20 - $30 / month to get that plus expansion, plus access to expansion testing.
Vandraad said:I do find it laughable that the idea of asking for more than $14.99 a month sets so many people off when those same people blindly fork over many times that for other entertainment. How much are people paying for basic cable these days? Or base level cable internet? Or their cell phone service? Or how much they spend on going out to each each month? And what about going to a single movie?
I too will pay quite a lot per month for better services, both in game and out.
I feel that the biggest issue with jumping to $20 is that in our modern era people have too many subscriptions draining them. Netflix, Hulu, HBO Go, Dollar Shave Club, Spotify, Loot Crate, their internet/housing/utility/cell phone/insurance bills, Audible, and a million other possible things. For one person sure an extra $15 doesn't seem like too much of a burden but somehow $20 seems like so much more. Now figure it's a couple or even a family of 3 who all want to play, now you'd be looking at $40-$60 a month which for some people is a big difference (or even room to keep/add some other monthly service for some) next to $30-45 a month.
They aren't just competing against other MMOs, they are up against every other service draining peoples wallets. With the modern trend of F2P and high skepticism toward sub based MMOs these days, hiking the cost is a dangerous prospect. Many here might be onboard to pay more, but we are almost all already totally onboard anyway.
Mordac said:Ziegfried said:Modern games regularly cost over $50 million to make not even counting the big MMOs. Whether the argument is fair to increase to price of games depends on what has gone into developing said game, I can agree with what you said about that. MMOs are not known for being cheap to make though. Many of the newer MMOs are in the $100+ million range! Just to recoup the cost of development how many boxes would they need to sell at $60? How many subs at $15/month? Well over the amount that most MMORPGs get for subscribers...very few of them come anywhere near what WoW got. Even if the budget is extremely low such as $10 million that is still over 100,000 copies sold to cover development cost. Most game companies don't want to just cover costs either, they want to make a hefty profit.
That all being true, and if the cost of development of all games has gone up so much, why is it that AAA titles are still being released at the $60 price point? Seems to me that's what I was paying many years ago. Also worth mentioning that AAA titles today have alot more on-going costs than before, like servers for multiplayer. Maybe DLC is how they pay for it? They also have the premium packages that includes extras, but I bet the majority of gamers still get the basic level.
The cost of making AAA titles doesn't mean a whole lot as they typically have a colossal return rate without DLC. Fallout 4 made $750 million in one day, GTA V made $1 billion dollars in 3 days, Black Ops 3 made $550 million at release, Destiny made $500 million day one, CoD: Modern Warfare 2 made $310 million day one (over a billion to date), and so on. Even if the cost to make games has increased, so have the profits with the ever expanding market. WoW cost $63 million to make and has since returned profits of 4.3+ billion dollars. Even SWTOR which cost $200+ million managed to end up making money despite being a "flop" and hemorrhaging users in the first few months following release. FFXIV ($100+ million) is making buckets of money with a base 12.99/14.99 sub.
Not sure how much Pantheon is set to cost but I'd imagine it will end up below $50 million, and recouping the cost of development has to be a lower figure when a decent portion of that development cost was paid by donations/pledges anyway. I don't see anything wrong with a 14.99 sub fee.
Iksar said:The cost of making AAA titles doesn't mean a whole lot as they typically have a colossal return rate without DLC. Fallout 4 made $750 million in one day, GTA V made $1 billion dollars in 3 days, Black Ops 3 made $550 million at release, Destiny made $500 million day one, CoD: Modern Warfare 2 made $310 million day one (over a billion to date), and so on. Even if the cost to make games has increased, so have the profits with the ever expanding market. WoW cost $63 million to make and has since returned profits of 4.3+ billion dollars. Even SWTOR which cost $200+ million managed to end up making money despite being a "flop" and hemorrhaging users in the first few months following release. FFXIV ($100+ million) is making buckets of money with a base 12.99/14.99 sub.
Not sure how much Pantheon is set to cost but I'd imagine it will end up below $50 million, and recouping the cost of development has to be a lower figure when a decent portion of that development cost was paid by donations/pledges anyway. I don't see anything wrong with a 14.99 sub fee.
So I guess we should all invest our money in game developers, as they are guaranteed to make money no matter if the game flops? I'd wager, as with most business, it's a lot more difficult to turn a profit than most people realize. Otherwise everybody and their mother would be making video games, even bad ones. No such thing as a sure thing.
Look, I'm all for them succeeding here. They deserve to be rewarded for their effort, they've identified a niche in the MMO market that's not being fillled, and they are trying to capitalize. They need to be careful not to price themselves too high. Many of us early pledgers would gladly pay more than the industry sub rate, but I'm assuming VR would like to get alot more subscribers than just the ones who have pledged early.
I now in the circles I play in the subscription is not frowned upon, but it is not well received either. There are so many FTP games out there, but they lack the depth and finish I personally look for in a game. I am fine with a $15 monthly fee but there has to be more substance to it. It’s not like the old days you payed your fee and played. Now people are looking for extra slots, gear and a long list of perks when they are paying. It comes down to costs of developing the game and support on VR’s side. They have to be profitable to survive and that is the bottom line. They have to set the number to what they can afford to give us a solid game. I think the equation is not as simple as some have posted but it should not be to high to keep potential players from the game.
Ox
The flip side of that Ox is that the FTP model is more often than not coupled with P2W. A big part of why most of us or so disgusted with the current MMO market is that very issue. People in general might not recognize it for what it is and their own ignorance is what puts them at odds with a sub model. But it doesn't change the underlying reality of the situation.
I want a solid game with solid gameplay that grows and becomes more complex and engaging over time. I'll pay monthly for that until it fails to deliver. I will never, ever, buy my way to success in a game and I'm highly unlikely to even participate in a game designed around that revenue stream again.
Oxillion said:I now in the circles I play in the subscription is not frowned upon, but it is not well received either. There are so many FTP games out there, but they lack the depth and finish I personally look for in a game. I am fine with a $15 monthly fee but there has to be more substance to it. It’s not like the old days you payed your fee and played. Now people are looking for extra slots, gear and a long list of perks when they are paying. It comes down to costs of developing the game and support on VR’s side. They have to be profitable to survive and that is the bottom line. They have to set the number to what they can afford to give us a solid game. I think the equation is not as simple as some have posted but it should not be to high to keep potential players from the game.
Ox
It is sad how F2P has seemingly ruined the market. People don't put any value on what they get for free. But, they get used to it and expect it. Let those people keep playing their free games, and getting what they pay for.
Feyshtey said:The flip side of that Ox is that the FTP model is more often than not coupled with P2W. A big part of why most of us or so disgusted with the current MMO market is that very issue. People in general might not recognize it for what it is and their own ignorance is what puts them at odds with a sub model. But it doesn't change the underlying reality of the situation.
I want a solid game with solid gameplay that grows and becomes more complex and engaging over time. I'll pay monthly for that until it fails to deliver. I will never, ever, buy my way to success in a game and I'm highly unlikely to even participate in a game designed around that revenue stream again.
BINGO. F2P=P2W in every case unfortunately. It's like you can't sepparate the two. The developers are going to make money one way or another. Wouldn't you rather just pay your $15 a month and be done with it? I'm so sick of all the gimmicks and cash shop/virtual item BS.
I'd be interested to know the age range of everyone on this thread. There's a lot of us here, but enough to sustain a massively RPG we are not. A large chunk of the players will, without doubt, be younger people. Teenagers that do not have access to credit and debit cards, that will have to convince mom and dad to shell out X amount each month for their nerd habits.
I don't know about ya'll, but I recall having a hell of a time with that as a 14 year old trying to play EQ, and I even had a job.
If they're going to bump the price up past the average subscription model, they need to make it easy to subscribe with different methods. Pre-loaded cards that teenagers can purchase at Target, or without a credit card.
Not saying I don't agree with everyone here. I'd pay top dollar a month for a quality MMO - but I'm also not 14 anymore. As much as we'd like it to be otherwise, we need the younger generation to keep the game alive.
Tralyan said:I'd be interested to know the age range of everyone on this thread. There's a lot of us here, but enough to sustain a massively RPG we are not. A large chunk of the players will, without doubt, be younger people. Teenagers that do not have access to credit and debit cards, that will have to convince mom and dad to shell out X amount each month for their nerd habits.
I don't know about ya'll, but I recall having a hell of a time with that as a 14 year old trying to play EQ, and I even had a job.
If they're going to bump the price up past the average subscription model, they need to make it easy to subscribe with different methods. Pre-loaded cards that teenagers can purchase at Target, or without a credit card.
Not saying I don't agree with everyone here. I'd pay top dollar a month for a quality MMO - but I'm also not 14 anymore. As much as we'd like it to be otherwise, we need the younger generation to keep the game alive.
This was one of several "fatal" flaws that were claimed about EQ. Proved to not be much of an issue, if at all. WoW is littered with kiddies, and they have a massive user base. Not seeing a problem.