Unfortunately the current thread was locked so I'm going to necro this old one.
As someone who raids in MMOs, I have two big annoyances when it comes to gear.
First is the gear jump from one level to the next, or one expansion level to the next. If I am pretty well geared from the base game at level 50, it is intensely annoying to see common dropped level 51 items with stats superior to my level 50 raid gear. Just because it's an expansion doesn't mean we need a 100% gear reset from day 1. A level 51 common drop in a new expansion should be a small upgrade over a level 50 common drop in the game before the expansion. Level 50 raid gear should not be something you start to seriously consider replacing before you start getting into the more difficult dungeons or beginning raids of the new expansion.
Second is gear effects. If I'm raid geared for the current game, and my helm has Enduring Breath on it, then if the next expansion gear has Enduring Breath on it, please put it on the helm also. It's seriously annoying to have Enduring Breath in the new tier suddenly move to the Foot slot, so you either end up with being stuck using your old Helm instead of your new one when a raid needs it, or you end up with same effects on two pieces of gear which don't stack and ends up being a wasted effect.
Hieromonk said:Wandidar said:So ok, I'll try to keep this short and then turn it over to all of you for comment.
I remember back to my glory days in EQ that I was constantly on the hunt for better gear. I also remember that the reason I was doing so was to be a better contributor to help my guild kill "mob next" that we were trying to, but failing to kill.
In short, the point of the game was killing the next mob and advancing as a guild / team.
At some point, that equation inverted. In today's MMO's the purpose of the next content is to get you the next gear. It's not really about doing what's next -it's more about the status of having attained. For sure, this does not hold true in the power guilds. They invest in advancement and gear is part of that investment...
But for all too many, the purpose isn't "mob next" it is "sit in Ironforge wearing my cool sword, or sitting on my cool mount so that people can see me"
I think this is a subtle, but real difference between older games like EQ and newer MMO's.
But I could be entirely full of crap. What are your thoughts?
Me, nor the people in my guild were gear mongers. More often than not, those who were solely after gear, could not crack the right technique to kill a mob. Once a guild knew, they tried to keep it a secret, often conducting a "flash raid" so other guilds could not come around and find out how your guild defeated the monster. (That is where politics comes into play.)
I suspect, that EQ after Luclin become all about gear, because the game itself was being changed to be item driven. And away from situational awareness and know how. To achievement based rungs. I stopped playing EQ after PoP & everyone was holding a light saber and was godley.
... the game itself was being changed to be item driven. And away from situational awareness and know how ...
I really hope gear is devalued a bit in this game. When all players operate within a "power band" of rough equivalence based on level and skill, not gear, game play becomes a commodity and players build reputations based on that game play.
I posted this in another topic, but:
Why is <> end game?
Why can't we have logical level caps with suspended leveling while farming pertinent content that is ONLY OBTAINABLE FOR A CERTAIN LVEL RANGE?
If I'm playing a bard, why cant there be a drop (item or material) that is only obtainable within a certain level range (TLC). In fact, you could make leveling your character totally dependent on obtaining these items (read epic quest or class advancement). Wouldn't that totally eliminate power leveling?
What if there were items that, if obtained at a lower level, scaled with your character through its class advancement ... Wouldn't that perhaps make people want to level more slowly? Perhaps you could only obtain a while in a certain level range, but could use that item throughout your character's advancement.
Hell, I might WANT to play a level 20 cleric long enough to obtain the object of my epic quest, or farm an item that would no longer be obtainable 5 levels from now. What if I could optionally turn off experience advancement?
End-game EPEEN is just that. It feeds the need for more "end-er" game content. To eliminate the race for Leet lewt, one must eliminate the mind-set that leet lewt requires a race to some pre-determined end game content. Why cant leet loot be obtained, and only obtained within a certain level range BEFORE max level?
xtnpd said:I posted this in another topic, but:
Why is <> end game?
Why can't we have logical level caps with suspended leveling while farming pertinent content that is ONLY OBTAINABLE FOR A CERTAIN LVEL RANGE?
If I'm playing a bard, why cant there be a drop (item or material) that is only obtainable within a certain level range (TLC). In fact, you could make leveling your character totally dependent on obtaining these items (read epic quest or class advancement). Wouldn't that totally eliminate power leveling?
What if there were items that, if obtained at a lower level, scaled with your character through its class advancement ... Wouldn't that perhaps make people want to level more slowly? Perhaps you could only obtain a while in a certain level range, but could use that item throughout your character's advancement.
Hell, I might WANT to play a level 20 cleric long enough to obtain the object of my epic quest, or farm an item that would no longer be obtainable 5 levels from now. What if I could optionally turn off experience advancement?
End-game EPEEN is just that. It feeds the need for more "end-er" game content. To eliminate the race for Leet lewt, one must eliminate the mind-set that leet lewt requires a race to some pre-determined end game content. Why cant leet loot be obtained, and only obtained within a certain level range BEFORE max level?
LFG: DPS-class LFG for this one DPS Item I need so I can continue leveling
LFG: TANK-class LFG for that Tank Item I need so I can continue leveling
LFG: CC-class LFG for that CC Item I need so I can continue leveling
You think you eliminate the race for Leet lewt, I am quit sure it will make it much worse
xtnpd said:I really hope gear is devalued a bit in this game. When all players operate within a "power band" of rough equivalence based on level and skill, not gear, game play becomes a commodity and players build reputations based on that game play.
I always evaluated people by their skill and not by their equipment.
But gear progression will be needed because that's how people work. I don't go to work because I want to become a better man. I go to work because I want to earn some money.
People attend raids because they want to get better items (and kill that boss mob of course)
Amsai said: Yea I agree. Its not the loot that killed it for me in mmorpgs. Its the 15 min speed run dungeons that are as shallow as they are empty and the 3 to 6 month turn over on gear. In XI there were pieces that were good at endgame for 7 years. So because of all the side grades I was allowed to cherish the gear I got for years Cuz some of it was ridiculously hard to get.
This right here is what is wrong with games in my opinion. Even reading the EQ forums will use Enchanter as a example someone said they are a DPS class and CC secondary that and Enchanter that is not running with a charmed mob is not needed in the group as it slows down kills because it is all about speed to get to the end.
Well I am hoping we have people of a different mindset in Pantheon. I want to see a group or guild that works together as a team to get people equiped. Bring back the respect people had when you entered a zone you did a camp check and then respected said camp by not moving in and killing their mobs. People truly worked together to get gear and advance.
I still remember me and a friend camping Raster of Guk for 2 weeks. I would be at the camp when not at work then he would take my place when I was at work. If he spawned we had each other number to call so we could come get our epic piece. This friend I met in the game with his wife and we are friends still to this day.
So while the goal is to get better gear to do more content the goal should also be friendship and respect of yoru fellow players.
That is the main problem I see with the current MMO model.
Wandidar said:So ok, I'll try to keep this short and then turn it over to all of you for comment.
I remember back to my glory days in EQ that I was constantly on the hunt for better gear. I also remember that the reason I was doing so was to be a better contributor to help my guild kill "mob next" that we were trying to, but failing to kill.
In short, the point of the game was killing the next mob and advancing as a guild / team.
It might have seemed like that at the time. That it was 'mob' driven, but that was only due to the fact that they hadn't refined the usage of the term tiers, and the gear drops themselves were wholly imbalanced such that it caused a large bottleneck at each tier that often meant only 2-3 guilds could ever have enough gear to hit the current tier while it was current. Lets say Avatar of War dropped a single rusty dagger. Thats its loot table. Do you care about killing that mob? Answer: Nope. Because what was important was getting the gear itself, and farming that gear, not the actual mob itself. The killing of the mob was just a means to an end, with gear being the goal.
You farmed Fear and Hate to take on VP. The guilds that farmed VP while Kunark was current had the capability to farm Velious, including Sleeper's Tomb. The guilds who did that farmed Luclin and broke VT. The guilds that farmed VT, were able to effectively break-through PoP and get in the Elemental Planes. The guilds that farmed the Elemental Planes were able to do Time once the Rathe Council and Time were fixed. Every step of the way it was a VERY delineated climbing system for guilds(although Hate/Fear/VP/Velious/Luclin became largely its own tier once all were not current) and a level of loot you could obtain in order to hit the next 'tier', and given the dearth of available raid loot, it wasn't uncommon for top guilds to then poach those players and kick said guilds back to square one, because MT gearing and Cleric gearing was paramount. This was persistant from pretty much day one. Remember, loot was so important that EQ Guilds invented and used DKP(Dragon Kill Points), just to be able to distribute loot 'fairly'. The Loot of the era was so iconic, it even got 'Fabled' versions every March of both the mob and the loot.
The only thing current games have done is institutionalized it, delineated it by tiers, and actually allow people to get gear in a reasonable amount of time to be able to transition from one rung to the next in order to see content in a timely manner. Some guilds get it fast, others take their time. But pretty much you don't have a situation with the Uber Guilds dictating progression through PVP Raiding for your server. You either sold your soul to get in them, or you didn't raid anything while current, and often for years after.
But make no mistake, everything we have now was largely there from the start, and from level 1 you looked to kill any mob that dropped the gear that you needed to hit harder content than you were currently at. All MMORPG's, at their core, are a Skinner Box in the form of a Video Game. Now, where good games go bad is when the mouse can feel and understand he's in a Skinner Box. This is why people don't tend to like overly grindy stuff, with the Fatal Sin being the creation of Dailies. When you have the mouse do the exact same thing every day for months on end in order to get the cheese, the repetitveness begins to get too much. Ideally, you move the mouse on progressively harder content. Not staying too long on any particular level and hopefully you can provide various different and distinct grinds(Crafting, Grinding, Questing, Marketplace Buy/Sell) so that the mouse has a choice and feels like he's in control of the cheese that he wants. Its also why MMORPG's cost so much to get off the ground, and take so long to develop. The distinct part about a game like EQ1 or this one, is that they aim to put more than one mouse in the box. By playing aand defeating levels of the Skinner Box together, as a group, people hopefully socialize and form bonds that keep them coming back.
I posted something similar to this on the Reddit yesterday. I agree there needs to be a balance to the gear progression, however I dont think there should be a hyper focus on statflated gear. Early on in EQ1 it was not a gear grind because there were fewer more meaningful items that had stats on them. Make the focus less on the gear grind and more about obtaining each piece and have each piece have meaning and longevity.
Wandidar said:So ok, I'll try to keep this short and then turn it over to all of you for comment.
I remember back to my glory days in EQ that I was constantly on the hunt for better gear. I also remember that the reason I was doing so was to be a better contributor to help my guild kill "mob next" that we were trying to, but failing to kill.
In short, the point of the game was killing the next mob and advancing as a guild / team.
At some point, that equation inverted. In today's MMO's the purpose of the next content is to get you the next gear. It's not really about doing what's next -it's more about the status of having attained. For sure, this does not hold true in the power guilds. They invest in advancement and gear is part of that investment...
But for all too many, the purpose isn't "mob next" it is "sit in Ironforge wearing my cool sword, or sitting on my cool mount so that people can see me"
I think this is a subtle, but real difference between older games like EQ and newer MMO's.
But I could be entirely full of crap. What are your thoughts?
Ok i have to stop you there, reason why? Because EQ was not just about gear....
1. Levels
2. Titles
3. Progression
4. Raiding and Grouping, Soloing
5. Gear to progress to 1.
So you see it is a myth, and what people think it is the goal. The end game was EQ goal for many guilds, Gear was a stepping stone, just like Levels and AA's
I hope you see where i am coming from?