Oh and I think this might be relevant to what I was talking about earlier. About having crafting be important but not negating content or drops.
Page 4 is juicy but the whole thread is good too.
http://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/441137/environment-based-character-development/p4
And I also realize nothing is set in stone, but reading Aradunes comments will give you a general idea of what way they are leaning. So while I do like the more varied approach it could end up that crafting is made relevant through the importance of consumables or adding crafting enhancements on top of dropped gear or having specific slots for crafting.
Enjoy the read!
Wandidar said:So ok, I'll try to keep this short and then turn it over to all of you for comment.
I remember back to my glory days in EQ that I was constantly on the hunt for better gear. I also remember that the reason I was doing so was to be a better contributor to help my guild kill "mob next" that we were trying to, but failing to kill.
In short, the point of the game was killing the next mob and advancing as a guild / team.
At some point, that equation inverted. In today's MMO's the purpose of the next content is to get you the next gear. It's not really about doing what's next -it's more about the status of having attained. For sure, this does not hold true in the power guilds. They invest in advancement and gear is part of that investment...
But for all too many, the purpose isn't "mob next" it is "sit in Ironforge wearing my cool sword, or sitting on my cool mount so that people can see me"
I think this is a subtle, but real difference between older games like EQ and newer MMO's.
But I could be entirely full of crap. What are your thoughts?
I don't really see how you can have one without the other. I think many of the playerbase are of an age, myself included, that was raised on competition. My friends and I competed on everything, we played sports all day and atari 2600 and then nintendo all night (how many had an atari????). For myself and most of my guildmates, having the best gear was a way of keeping score in that competition as well as a necessity for progression. We had a shaman and a cleric with shendu robes (mostly for status reasons), but as a guild we only did that when our casters were geared for progression. Quest for gear and progression seem to go hand in hand to me.
Crafted, looted and gifted (ie: GM event). All avenues of equipment...
That dynamicism was my point & when I said best in the game, I was speaking in terms of pervasiveness. As no once Sword for every person/character can be "the best", because another might find the stats not to their likeing, etc. Nobody says the awsome sword you just looted can't be made better through a GM backsmith who has a secret technique. Not all crafters will have the same tools, or techniques either.
Coincidentally, You just looted "THE BEST" sword in your guild... how do you know it the best in the game?
Additionally, people keep talking in terms of getting the best gear for each slot.. how do you know? Where is this database that you speak of, and where do you go, to get these exact pieces of equipment for each slot..?
Understand, WE are all on the forfront of this project and upon release where is this info..? Most are conceivably speaking in terms of years later and when twinking or starting a new character. Or with hindsight. During Everquest, Ally's was filled with information from us the players. Those who followed had a menu to choose from and could look things up. That was not how it was for those who started the game fresh... like all of us here.
The idea, that you will be able to find the best gear for each slot is a damn joke... and most players will most likely have anything, in any slot, as they go.
I don't really think data mining is harmful to a game. People who don't care about it can avoid it, people who do will just get angry that information that is traditionally available suddenly isn't.
That said, gear data is already stored server-side just like all character data. The only thing stored on the client are typically graphics assets. Otherwise you could modify the values in realtime with CheatEngine and go one shotting raid encounters.
Amsai said: Dat mining. Maybe they can come up with a counter measure. And I hope they do. But its been pretty prevalent since the early 2000s I think? Maybe your right and it takes years and in the mean time yea i might not have the BiS but ill have the best that is common knowledge as I am able to gather it. Until these BiS pieces are known. And thats assuming it isnt instantly known on patch day through dat mines. Players are crafty...... even if it takes away from the game.
You are missing my whole point... How do you know what is Best In Slot..?
You may be uber proficiant at 1-hand blunt & shield, while another Warrior might be using 1-hand slashing. These two (same level) Warriors may have entirely different skill sets, because they have bumped into different masters along theire travels and learned from different NPCs..
How does Weapon X, become the BiS..?
I understand you want to be the best... but that comes from just playing the game, not looking at a menu and placing an order.
Hieromonk said:How do you know what is Best In Slot..?
How does Weapon X, become the BiS..?
Once you have a firm understanding of the game mechanics (especially those relating to melee combat) you can easily extrapolate from known examples to figure out how a change in 1 stat can drastically alter the 'power' of a given item. Think back to the original incarnation of the Moss Covered Twig. On the surface it was an unassuming 1hb item with 3 damage and 10 delay. But when you understood how your level, 1hb skill and buffs all affected that item, it ended up insanely powerful...so powerful it was severely nerfed.
So no, you don't need to see all items available at a particular point in the game, you just need to understand the interaction between the applicable variables to instantly know what is better and what, theoretically, should be best.
[Blockquote]I don't really think data mining is harmful to a game. People who don't care about it can avoid it, people who do will just get angry that information that is traditionally available suddenly isn't. That said, gear data is already stored server-side just like all character data. The only thing stored on the client are typically graphics assets. Otherwise you could modify the values in realtime with CheatEngine and go one shotting raid encounters. The problem with that is data mining can give and unfair advantage and should be seen akin to hacking. I don't care if the miners get upset that they can't mine, because I consider it cheating. I want measures in place to prevent cheating.
I think what Hieromonk is saying is that he wants there to be a new concept of gear, the likes of which haven't been seen in a game yet, but that is more similar to the old EQ system than anything else. He seems to want there to be so many combinations and possibilities that no one can say "yes, this, this is the one best item." And after reading around, that seems a lot more in line with things Arudane has said he envisions for this game than not. That's not a bad thing, and maybe I'm wrong, but I don't see anything wrong with the desire for a varied and diverse set of options. If I'm understanding Amsai right, you want there to be a very clear cut "this is best" item to come from raids, so you can show up to the raid, put your time in, and get the best gear with no one in dispute as to how uber you are. What I think I see Hieromonk advocating is there to be a sea of items that could blur those lines. I don't see anything in his arguments that would be "against personal progression," so I'm not sure why you're claiming that. I don't see him advocating for everyone to just pass out super uber loot. You would still need to work hard for gear.
I don't think enviroments alone are enough to constitute variety. I personally don't want to see "this sword is best for ice. This sword is best for fire. This sword is best for blah blah blah," I want to see "these 5 swords are pretty good for ice, and each one has a subtle advantage and disadvantage in ice, so I'll need to decide for myself what to use based on how I choose to gear myself in other ways, and based on which skills I choose to train up. None of the 5 are good for fire, so in addition to this choice for ice, I'll need to weigh my options for these different 5 swords."
I know you didn't play everquest, so the concept of "no one BiS item" might be a bit foreign, but back in the EQ days, there were LOTs of potential gear options, and it was really hard to know what was "the best." The WoW era sort of ruined that, and there suddenly was a "clear end all be all item" that you could say "yes, this. This is the best item." Sometimes that would be an overall item, sometimes it would depend on the zone/encounter. But back in the day, there were so many options that you could have seemingly endless cominations of gear that would all compete with eachother. I think another thing Hieromonk is saying is he wants there to be many different skills/trees to choose from, balanced in a way that no one can run the numbers and say "everyone do this. This is best." WoW kind of did that too, with people deciding what the mathematically best way to skill yourself was, then do the same for gear. It sounds like he's hoping to see that avoided in this game and go back to the oldschool where the lines were blurred and even the math wouldn't show a clear edge with only one path, and I must say I tend to agree.
That's what I'm seeing Hieromonk argue in favor for. As an addition, he seems to prefer that the items come from crafting, and I don't see a problem with that. Vanguard did things that way and it was a REALLY fun, well executed system. If the game overall had been more refined, it would have been the next big MMO. I think that you're so opposed to crafting, that you're confusing his two seperate arguments as being intertwined.
But ok, lets say crafting is 100% out like they had previously planned. That still doesn't mean there should be one end-all be-all weapon, and I don't even want to see one end-all be-all weapon on a zone specific basis. I'd really like to see a return to the EQ days. I want to decide for myself. Even if the numbers are run, I want them to come up a blur and see a return to an endless sea of comibinations where everyone is different. And again, since you didn't play EQ, I want to remind you that this is all raid gear we're talking about. It's not that gear from a lower zone was better than or equal to raid gear. There was so much raid gear that it was impossible to decide with certainty which combination was best. Also, the gear was so rare and hard to get, even if you ran the numbers you would NEVER be able to have it all. By the time you finally had your dream gear set, the new expansion would already have come out and it wouldn't even be close to the best set anymore.
I don't want to see this game go the WoW route where eventually everyone can max out every stat. I don't want to see a universal consensus that one stat is "the best" and everyone pick one finite set of gear with that stat optimized. I don't want min/maxing to have one answer. Even if there is a clear min/max gear answer, I don't want anyone to have enough time to get it before new gear comes out. That way everyones gear rotates more organically and diversifies everyone's gear. That's how EQ was, and I think this game can return to that.
I promise that even with all these options, people still had an elite status, probably moreso in EQ than any other MMO I've ever seen. I have yet to see any game anywhere else require the time and commitment of EQ raiding, so if you're afraid that diversity is somehow going to get in the way of personal progression, I can promise you first hand that won't happen if this game is done right. If anything, diversity and rarity of gear will increase this because you won't ever see a flatline where the top raiders all have identicle gear/weapon sets and are waiting for the next expansion.
@ Arksien
If thats what hes trying to say then I dont have a problem with that for the most part, But Ill say it again. It was the preference that he wanted crafted to be the best that I dont agree with nor do I think fits what this game is to do. Again thats not to say Im not ok with a mix. So I still dont get how even after I directly quoted you and responded specifically to you, how you can still say I want raid gear to be the best. I dont and never have! I just dont want ONLY crafting to be the best! And im 99.9% positive that will never be the case.
As to what Brad has said: Brad has said that raid gear will be the best even if only slightly. And he has said that he doesnt want either crafting nor drops to negate eachother. Thats why there was discussion about using things like consumables and crafting specific slots. That being said FFXI did have alternate builds in quite a few cases where there could be different but viable endgame gear. But I still consider this a sort of BiS as well. And there were some pieces that were just undisputed and Ive seen EQ folks say as much about some items from EQ as well. Also there were some items that people would chase for years in FFXI. I had a thief buddy finally get his Thief gloves from Dynamis after 2 years. It was situational, but for that situation it was best in slot. I think maybe in this case we were both taking the other one too literally. So when I say BiS dont get too hung up on it. But anyone that wants to better themselves and their guild will always chase the best gear to do so. This is only natural.
But for the love of God, realize that my preference is this: 25% of endame items from Raids, 25% from crafting, 25% from dungeons, and 25% from quests! I dont know where it came from that I only want raid gear to be the best. And I never said that there should only be dropped gear EXCEPT in the context that if it was one or the other (crafting or dropped) that I would be 100% behind dropped.
Arksien said:I think what Hieromonk is saying is that he wants there to be a new concept of gear, the likes of which haven't been seen in a game yet, but that is more similar to the old EQ system than anything else. He seems to want there to be so many combinations and possibilities that no one can say "yes, this, this is the one best item." And after reading around, that seems a lot more in line with things Arudane has said he envisions for this game than not. That's not a bad thing, and maybe I'm wrong, but I don't see anything wrong with the desire for a varied and diverse set of options. If I'm understanding Amsai right, you want there to be a very clear cut "this is best" item to come from raids, so you can show up to the raid, put your time in, and get the best gear with no one in dispute as to how uber you are. What I think I see Hieromonk advocating is there to be a sea of items that could blur those lines. I don't see anything in his arguments that would be "against personal progression," so I'm not sure why you're claiming that. I don't see him advocating for everyone to just pass out super uber loot. You would still need to work hard for gear.
I don't think enviroments alone are enough to constitute variety. I personally don't want to see "this sword is best for ice. This sword is best for fire. This sword is best for blah blah blah," I want to see "these 5 swords are pretty good for ice, and each one has a subtle advantage and disadvantage in ice, so I'll need to decide for myself what to use based on how I choose to gear myself in other ways, and based on which skills I choose to train up. None of the 5 are good for fire, so in addition to this choice for ice, I'll need to weigh my options for these different 5 swords."
I know you didn't play everquest, so the concept of "no one BiS item" might be a bit foreign, but back in the EQ days, there were LOTs of potential gear options, and it was really hard to know what was "the best." The WoW era sort of ruined that, and there suddenly was a "clear end all be all item" that you could say "yes, this. This is the best item." Sometimes that would be an overall item, sometimes it would depend on the zone/encounter. But back in the day, there were so many options that you could have seemingly endless cominations of gear that would all compete with eachother. I think another thing Hieromonk is saying is he wants there to be many different skills/trees to choose from, balanced in a way that no one can run the numbers and say "everyone do this. This is best." WoW kind of did that too, with people deciding what the mathematically best way to skill yourself was, then do the same for gear. It sounds like he's hoping to see that avoided in this game and go back to the oldschool where the lines were blurred and even the math wouldn't show a clear edge with only one path, and I must say I tend to agree.
That's what I'm seeing Hieromonk argue in favor for. As an addition, he seems to prefer that the items come from crafting, and I don't see a problem with that. Vanguard did things that way and it was a REALLY fun, well executed system. If the game overall had been more refined, it would have been the next big MMO. I think that you're so opposed to crafting, that you're confusing his two seperate arguments as being intertwined.
But ok, lets say crafting is 100% out like they had previously planned. That still doesn't mean there should be one end-all be-all weapon, and I don't even want to see one end-all be-all weapon on a zone specific basis. I'd really like to see a return to the EQ days. I want to decide for myself. Even if the numbers are run, I want them to come up a blur and see a return to an endless sea of comibinations where everyone is different. And again, since you didn't play EQ, I want to remind you that this is all raid gear we're talking about. It's not that gear from a lower zone was better than or equal to raid gear. There was so much raid gear that it was impossible to decide with certainty which combination was best. Also, the gear was so rare and hard to get, even if you ran the numbers you would NEVER be able to have it all. By the time you finally had your dream gear set, the new expansion would already have come out and it wouldn't even be close to the best set anymore.
I don't want to see this game go the WoW route where eventually everyone can max out every stat. I don't want to see a universal consensus that one stat is "the best" and everyone pick one finite set of gear with that stat optimized. I don't want min/maxing to have one answer. Even if there is a clear min/max gear answer, I don't want anyone to have enough time to get it before new gear comes out. That way everyones gear rotates more organically and diversifies everyone's gear. That's how EQ was, and I think this game can return to that.
I promise that even with all these options, people still had an elite status, probably moreso in EQ than any other MMO I've ever seen. I have yet to see any game anywhere else require the time and commitment of EQ raiding, so if you're afraid that diversity is somehow going to get in the way of personal progression, I can promise you first hand that won't happen if this game is done right. If anything, diversity and rarity of gear will increase this because you won't ever see a flatline where the top raiders all have identicle gear/weapon sets and are waiting for the next expansion.
Very damn well said, Arksien. I could not have put this better myself. I agree with you 100% that there should not be any "be-all end-all" items. Items should come in a spectrum, and each item should have it's own pros and cons that need to be weighed by the player for their playstyle and what they personally want as part of their progression. I think most modern MMORPGs (FFXIV included in this, with VERY limited "end-game" sets...[2]) tend to make player choices when determining what gear they want for their classes excessively restrictive. It kind of removes the fun element of remembering that your character is in a huge fantasy world, where endless items is a possibility and saying that there are only two or three choices from raids or other means (Tomes, in FFXIV's case). It annoys me, because player choice on how we play the classes in FFXIV then becomes severely limited.
Conversely, I also see the sense that the "best" items shouldn't come from some random person who decided to throw two and two together and come up with the "best" new item. Crafting materials will come from all over the world (hopefully), and as such some of the best materials for crafting armor, weapons, trinkets, and even housing (Housing? Maybe?) should come from some of the hardest content (Dungeons, raids, real-time events, etc). Having crafting being another avenue of gearing isn't the issue, but the crafting mats for the best crafts should be gotten through difficult or very rare means. Harvesting is alright for this, so long as the crafting community doesn't become overpopulated with these rare materials.
Tossing Atmospheres into the mix, this could lead to some very interesting choices for gear, though, and I can't wait to see what comes of it.
Everywhere else they seemed to have newbie armor quests, but not in Odus, at least not in the Palace. I thought that was a game mechanic, intended to "toughen up" people from that area and If i recall, Sleeves and pants were hard items to get. I had muslin sleeves well into my raiding time. Most of the preffered class specific armor was from quest/skill items. Like the Thurgadin quested armors or the Nihilists, (ha-ha "Big Lebowski") from the GoD expansion. Those were nice armors. I would like to see a combination of Crafting and Questing for nice gear pieces, that competes a little with dropped pieces.
Also I liked the fact that we were hindered with a pet every 4 levels. All was great when you hit the 4th or multiple thereof, and I thought it as to force you to learn other aspects of your class for three levels, while learning about the elemental on the 4th level. This also meant: in situations where your strongest elemental was not applicable, you would have to cast down to a smaller elemental to round out the group. Like swappig out earth for the lesser water, because a proper warrior and cleric joioned the group. With a ranger and druid, the earth pet helped take some of the heat; with a warrior and cleric joining, well, then you could have fun bringing out the smaller water elemental as a mini-rougue, for some extra dps- whilst you did proper mage things.
With regards to weapons, we learned early on to go with our strengths and for mages it was daggers and peircing skill because we started with a dagger. All the mages would tell each other in the class chat about the dagger from here, or there, that procced somehting or other, as an item to consider for our arsenal. For role play purposes however, I tried - forced- myself to learn 2hb, or 1hb (I though mages looked better with a staff- lol) and there were some items I got good at that were real fight-savers. It was the weapon skill level in that discipline that allowed the weapon to proc, the higher the skill level, the sooner you could use it, get the effect, then put it away and get back to the fight as normal.
I was motivated in a RP sort of way to skill up Hand to hand, only because some townsfolk thought it threatening that you has a weapon in your hand, I wanted to be able to sell and if I went outside for a moment, to be able to smack bugs dead without having to take out an overpowered ( to the bug) weapon.
So I think Crafting, questing and skill would be good things to incorporate into gear choices not only to slow it down, but to provide more choices and appropriate dibs for special "mats" if they drop in raids or fights. I say that because I also remember a mage on our server that specialised in....Divination. "Divination?!" all the sage mages said, huffing and puffing, "surely we are best in conjuration, I mean really, true north! *bluster*" But I was curious and I neve rgot a chance to speak to that mage, but I did notice some spells that needed divination and I wondered what he knew that I didn't, if anything.
Amsai said:@ Arksien
If thats what hes trying to say then I dont have a problem with that for the most part, But Ill say it again. It was the preference that he wanted crafted to be the best that I dont agree with nor do I think fits what this game is to do. Again thats not to say Im not ok with a mix. So I still dont get how even after I directly quoted you and responded specifically to you, how you can still say I want raid gear to be the best. I dont and never have! I just dont want ONLY crafting to be the best! And im 99.9% positive that will never be the case.
As to what Brad has said: Brad has said that raid gear will be the best even if only slightly. And he has said that he doesnt want either crafting nor drops to negate eachother. Thats why there was discussion about using things like consumables and crafting specific slots. That being said FFXI did have alternate builds in quite a few cases where there could be different but viable endgame gear. But I still consider this a sort of BiS as well. And there were some pieces that were just undisputed and Ive seen EQ folks say as much about some items from EQ as well. Also there were some items that people would chase for years in FFXI. I had a thief buddy finally get his Thief gloves from Dynamis after 2 years. It was situational, but for that situation it was best in slot. I think maybe in this case we were both taking the other one too literally. So when I say BiS dont get too hung up on it. But anyone that wants to better themselves and their guild will always chase the best gear to do so. This is only natural.
But for the love of God, realize that my preference is this: 25% of endame items from Raids, 25% from crafting, 25% from dungeons, and 25% from quests! I dont know where it came from that I only want raid gear to be the best. And I never said that there should only be dropped gear EXCEPT in the context that if it was one or the other (crafting or dropped) that I would be 100% behind dropped.
Usually if something in EQ was clearly superior beyond a doubt, the nerf hammer would come along very quickly to make that less the case. It still happened, but they tried like all hell to avoid it. It was also interesting to see "not super great" items that got nerfed when players found an alternate means of using them that the devs didn't anticapate. The Moss Covered Twig was already brought up here. Another example was that Lady Vox, a raid mob dragon from classic EQ dropped a ranger-only sword with rather mediocre stats, but it had a proc on it that sometimes spawned a wolf companion. The wolf would deal DPS very well, but only had 1hp. Basically the devs intended the wolf to easily die and quickly so you never had more than 1-3 out at a time and were't OP. Well, some wiseass figured out that if they duel'd with another player, they could spawn an endless number of wolfs. So they went to a raid zone, and dueld the player. The other player didn't fight back, and just let this guy wail on him, spawning like 200 wolfs. Then, when they had a ton of wolfs, they went and engaged a bunch of raid mobs, and the wolves did so much DPS these two guys solo'd a raid zone.
Now, I am NOT advocatin exploiting items and am glad the item got nerfed in that case. However, I think that is is SO DAMN COOL that the various items in the game allowed players to think outside the box, and an otherwise medicore item turned out to be rediculously OP if used a certain way. There were other instances less dramatic where a less-than-desireably item paired with certain gear in certain instances suddenly became a great item to have. I think that's more in line with what Brad wants to see with enviroments, so I'm very optimistic.
No problem man. I think you are right about a lot of things and Im happy to tell XI perspectives as much as I like hearing about VG and EQ perspectives.
The biggest difference I see with XI was that it was more about sidegrades and situational gear more so than EQ. But this wasnt due to fairly clear BiS it was due to in combat gear swaping macros for any given situation. So Im trying to build up to a weapon skill Im in my BiS (or close enough) haste gear, but then I switch to my best weapon skill gear for damage, but then I piss off the mob so I switch to my best evasion gear, then another mob comes in and I switch to my best intelligence gear to make sure I can make a paralyze stick (assuming hybrid class here), but this mob has high evasion so my haste gear is worthless so I switch to mostly accuracy gear so I can actually build a weaponskill and hit the mob. Now a lot of people hated this for aesthetic reasons or for immersion reasons. But this was standard in XI and people spent years building to their best gear for each situational sets. By the time I left XI I had like 10 different and complete gears sets (like 13 or so gear slots depending on class).
So some of my reasoning about how Pantheon will turn out has come from Brads confirmation of not only situational gear but situational skills both of which will be dependent on atmosphers and I assume specializations (if those are still a thing: bubble cleric vs regular cleric example they gave a few months back). So lets say there are idk 8 different atmospheres and 2 different specs per class. Thats at least 16 different "BiS" per slot. And from the gear slot thread what was that 20 something odd slots? Thats a lot of gear to chase after and hopefully for years. Thats not to say that there cant be different combinations of "BiS" on top of that to make even more ways to build your best gear sets as well. And even though I hope it will be very very gradual, that still leaves room for expansions that can offer new options that either in themselves are better or can be combined with some older gear to make a new best gear set. These are the kinds of things ive been thinking about in relation to gear.
And of course thats with a hope of a varied approach to gear aquisition like I sugested in my last post of equal parts raid/quest/craft/dungeon.
And yes I too hope for emergent gameplay to happen based off different skills and gear vs the atmospheres. After all if not for that in FFXI, then Ninja would never have become a tank and instead would have remained a very subpar hybrid melee/magic dps.
Vandraad said:Hieromonk said:How do you know what is Best In Slot..?
How does Weapon X, become the BiS..?
Once you have a firm understanding of the game mechanics (especially those relating to melee combat) you can easily extrapolate from known examples to figure out how a change in 1 stat can drastically alter the 'power' of a given item. Think back to the original incarnation of the Moss Covered Twig. On the surface it was an unassuming 1hb item with 3 damage and 10 delay. But when you understood how your level, 1hb skill and buffs all affected that item, it ended up insanely powerful...so powerful it was severely nerfed.
So no, you don't need to see all items available at a particular point in the game, you just need to understand the interaction between the applicable variables to instantly know what is better and what, theoretically, should be best.
Yes we know that^^... (derp!)
I am asking you HOW..? How are you going to know DAY 1, or Week One or Year One... if nobody has found it yet..? Or even know of other people drops, if they are keeping them hidden, etc..
Yes, later on, or late-comers will be able to have BiS gear (& able to be weighed against weps), because there will be a vertual map layed out. This game will be too big for you, or your guild to travel everwhere at once. Look at the Atlas thread and the map of EQ I posted. All of that can fit into 6 zones in Pantheon. All of that is dropped into your lap at once...
Really know way of having BiS gear, because you won't know what is... until it to late and you've outgrown that could-of-been peice of equipment. This game is bigger than you or me, or your guild & mine..
Arksien said:I think what Hieromonk is saying is that he wants there to be a new concept of gear, the likes of which haven't been seen in a game yet, but that is more similar to the old EQ system than anything else. He seems to want there to be so many combinations and possibilities that no one can say "yes, this, this is the one best item." And after reading around, that seems a lot more in line with things Arudane has said he envisions for this game than not. That's not a bad thing, and maybe I'm wrong, but I don't see anything wrong with the desire for a varied and diverse set of options. If I'm understanding Amsai right, you want there to be a very clear cut "this is best" item to come from raids, so you can show up to the raid, put your time in, and get the best gear with no one in dispute as to how uber you are. What I think I see Hieromonk advocating is there to be a sea of items that could blur those lines. I don't see anything in his arguments that would be "against personal progression," so I'm not sure why you're claiming that. I don't see him advocating for everyone to just pass out super uber loot. You would still need to work hard for gear.
I don't think enviroments alone are enough to constitute variety. I personally don't want to see "this sword is best for ice. This sword is best for fire. This sword is best for blah blah blah," I want to see "these 5 swords are pretty good for ice, and each one has a subtle advantage and disadvantage in ice, so I'll need to decide for myself what to use based on how I choose to gear myself in other ways, and based on which skills I choose to train up. None of the 5 are good for fire, so in addition to this choice for ice, I'll need to weigh my options for these different 5 swords."
I know you didn't play everquest, so the concept of "no one BiS item" might be a bit foreign, but back in the EQ days, there were LOTs of potential gear options, and it was really hard to know what was "the best." The WoW era sort of ruined that, and there suddenly was a "clear end all be all item" that you could say "yes, this. This is the best item." Sometimes that would be an overall item, sometimes it would depend on the zone/encounter. But back in the day, there were so many options that you could have seemingly endless cominations of gear that would all compete with eachother. I think another thing Hieromonk is saying is he wants there to be many different skills/trees to choose from, balanced in a way that no one can run the numbers and say "everyone do this. This is best." WoW kind of did that too, with people deciding what the mathematically best way to skill yourself was, then do the same for gear. It sounds like he's hoping to see that avoided in this game and go back to the oldschool where the lines were blurred and even the math wouldn't show a clear edge with only one path, and I must say I tend to agree.
That's what I'm seeing Hieromonk argue in favor for. As an addition, he seems to prefer that the items come from crafting, and I don't see a problem with that. Vanguard did things that way and it was a REALLY fun, well executed system. If the game overall had been more refined, it would have been the next big MMO. I think that you're so opposed to crafting, that you're confusing his two seperate arguments as being intertwined.
But ok, lets say crafting is 100% out like they had previously planned. That still doesn't mean there should be one end-all be-all weapon, and I don't even want to see one end-all be-all weapon on a zone specific basis. I'd really like to see a return to the EQ days. I want to decide for myself. Even if the numbers are run, I want them to come up a blur and see a return to an endless sea of comibinations where everyone is different. And again, since you didn't play EQ, I want to remind you that this is all raid gear we're talking about. It's not that gear from a lower zone was better than or equal to raid gear. There was so much raid gear that it was impossible to decide with certainty which combination was best. Also, the gear was so rare and hard to get, even if you ran the numbers you would NEVER be able to have it all. By the time you finally had your dream gear set, the new expansion would already have come out and it wouldn't even be close to the best set anymore.
I don't want to see this game go the WoW route where eventually everyone can max out every stat. I don't want to see a universal consensus that one stat is "the best" and everyone pick one finite set of gear with that stat optimized. I don't want min/maxing to have one answer. Even if there is a clear min/max gear answer, I don't want anyone to have enough time to get it before new gear comes out. That way everyones gear rotates more organically and diversifies everyone's gear. That's how EQ was, and I think this game can return to that.
I promise that even with all these options, people still had an elite status, probably moreso in EQ than any other MMO I've ever seen. I have yet to see any game anywhere else require the time and commitment of EQ raiding, so if you're afraid that diversity is somehow going to get in the way of personal progression, I can promise you first hand that won't happen if this game is done right. If anything, diversity and rarity of gear will increase this because you won't ever see a flatline where the top raiders all have identicle gear/weapon sets and are waiting for the next expansion.
My bad guys. I assumed everyone here would understand the context of my posts, so eloquently stated by Arksein.
It is my fualt as I had assumed that your above sentiment was IMPLIED into this whole conversation is EQ + VG = Pantheon. To me, it is implied that One knows the base EQ mechanics and formula.. and also have some understanding/play of Vanguard crafting and harvesting, etc. I often forget some have no understanding, or knowledge, or reference to frame my words from. I have been around since EQ beta 1.2 and know game mechanics and game engines and character hooks, real well. What they are planning is not a mystery. I am looking well past 2020..
In my defense, I had asked if he had played both games. Obviously, I can't invest my time into know what games people have played & in all honesty, if you didn't know the EQ formulas in your head and understand it's base mechanics, and never played VG, how are you even engaged in this conversation..?
There is either going to be crafting in this game or not.
If so... and given it is a 2017+ release and a new era of MMORPG, based around equipment & items in a social environment... do you thinking crafting is going to be ignored..? Rhetorical I know, but do you see the very simple logic and premis I come from..? We already have a loot fest game.. it is 17 years old and just dropped a new expansion... & opening up a prog server in 2 days. Pantheon is newschool... and will have added depth.
Man Amsia you are going to be really mad once you loot a sweet ass BiS 1-hand blunt... and find you will still have to use your current sword for several more weeks/months?, until your 1-hand blunt skill gets up high enough to where you can wield that BiS club effectively.
Secondly, I can almost assure you that there will be no armor swap "button". Pantheon is not an arcade game. Switching out gear, is not a game.
And as mentioned, most if not everyone will be wearing hodgepodge gear, because -armor sets- are weaksauce & mickymouse development. Cheap and easy way to sucker people threw the grind... NEXT! (ArcheAge = Armor sets).
Banded, Plate, Studded.. you are going to see people wearing everything. No two people will look alike.
Hieromonk said:Man Amsia you are going to be really mad once you loot a sweet ass BiS 1-hand blunt... and find you will still have to use your current sword for several more weeks/months?, until your 1-hand blunt skill gets up high enough to where you can wield that BiS club effectively.
Secondly, I can almost assure you that there will be no armor swap "button". Pantheon is not an arcade game. Switching out gear, is not a game.
And as mentioned, most if not everyone will be wearing hodgepodge gear, because -armor sets- are weaksauce & mickymouse development. Cheap and easy way to sucker people threw the grind... NEXT! (ArcheAge = Armor sets).
Banded, Plate, Studded.. you are going to see people wearing everything. No two people will look alike.
Well he won't be suprised because he played FFXI and it had the same thing. If you didn't skill up a certain weapon and just tried to use it at a higher lvl you wouldn't hit the broad side of a barn. You seem to jump to some conclusions a bit.
Arksien said:I think what Hieromonk is saying is that he wants there to be a new concept of gear, the likes of which haven't been seen in a game yet, but that is more similar to the old EQ system than anything else. He seems to want there to be so many combinations and possibilities that no one can say "yes, this, this is the one best item." And after reading around, that seems a lot more in line with things Arudane has said he envisions for this game than not. That's not a bad thing, and maybe I'm wrong, but I don't see anything wrong with the desire for a varied and diverse set of options. If I'm understanding Amsai right, you want there to be a very clear cut "this is best" item to come from raids, so you can show up to the raid, put your time in, and get the best gear with no one in dispute as to how uber you are. What I think I see Hieromonk advocating is there to be a sea of items that could blur those lines. I don't see anything in his arguments that would be "against personal progression," so I'm not sure why you're claiming that. I don't see him advocating for everyone to just pass out super uber loot. You would still need to work hard for gear.
I don't think enviroments alone are enough to constitute variety. I personally don't want to see "this sword is best for ice. This sword is best for fire. This sword is best for blah blah blah," I want to see "these 5 swords are pretty good for ice, and each one has a subtle advantage and disadvantage in ice, so I'll need to decide for myself what to use based on how I choose to gear myself in other ways, and based on which skills I choose to train up. None of the 5 are good for fire, so in addition to this choice for ice, I'll need to weigh my options for these different 5 swords."
I know you didn't play everquest, so the concept of "no one BiS item" might be a bit foreign, but back in the EQ days, there were LOTs of potential gear options, and it was really hard to know what was "the best." The WoW era sort of ruined that, and there suddenly was a "clear end all be all item" that you could say "yes, this. This is the best item." Sometimes that would be an overall item, sometimes it would depend on the zone/encounter. But back in the day, there were so many options that you could have seemingly endless cominations of gear that would all compete with eachother. I think another thing Hieromonk is saying is he wants there to be many different skills/trees to choose from, balanced in a way that no one can run the numbers and say "everyone do this. This is best." WoW kind of did that too, with people deciding what the mathematically best way to skill yourself was, then do the same for gear. It sounds like he's hoping to see that avoided in this game and go back to the oldschool where the lines were blurred and even the math wouldn't show a clear edge with only one path, and I must say I tend to agree.
That's what I'm seeing Hieromonk argue in favor for. As an addition, he seems to prefer that the items come from crafting, and I don't see a problem with that. Vanguard did things that way and it was a REALLY fun, well executed system. If the game overall had been more refined, it would have been the next big MMO. I think that you're so opposed to crafting, that you're confusing his two seperate arguments as being intertwined.
But ok, lets say crafting is 100% out like they had previously planned. That still doesn't mean there should be one end-all be-all weapon, and I don't even want to see one end-all be-all weapon on a zone specific basis. I'd really like to see a return to the EQ days. I want to decide for myself. Even if the numbers are run, I want them to come up a blur and see a return to an endless sea of comibinations where everyone is different. And again, since you didn't play EQ, I want to remind you that this is all raid gear we're talking about. It's not that gear from a lower zone was better than or equal to raid gear. There was so much raid gear that it was impossible to decide with certainty which combination was best. Also, the gear was so rare and hard to get, even if you ran the numbers you would NEVER be able to have it all. By the time you finally had your dream gear set, the new expansion would already have come out and it wouldn't even be close to the best set anymore.
I don't want to see this game go the WoW route where eventually everyone can max out every stat. I don't want to see a universal consensus that one stat is "the best" and everyone pick one finite set of gear with that stat optimized. I don't want min/maxing to have one answer. Even if there is a clear min/max gear answer, I don't want anyone to have enough time to get it before new gear comes out. That way everyones gear rotates more organically and diversifies everyone's gear. That's how EQ was, and I think this game can return to that.
I promise that even with all these options, people still had an elite status, probably moreso in EQ than any other MMO I've ever seen. I have yet to see any game anywhere else require the time and commitment of EQ raiding, so if you're afraid that diversity is somehow going to get in the way of personal progression, I can promise you first hand that won't happen if this game is done right. If anything, diversity and rarity of gear will increase this because you won't ever see a flatline where the top raiders all have identicle gear/weapon sets and are waiting for the next expansion.
Very well said and accurate to the way things were in EQ. Lots of gear choices, with some blurred lines as to what was best. Certain slots had clear winners, but it wasnt like you were calculating a whole set of gear and crunching numbers to determine what was best. Drops were indeed rare, and getting everything on your wishlist was unrealistic at best. Also correct that players still obtained elite status, dispite the amount of gear and lack of a clear BiS item.
The more gear choices the better. I would prefer to see the majority of end-game gear come from raiding, but would also like to see a few pieces of uber crafted gear from raid drops (i.e. dragon scales), and possibly raid quests would put a nice twist on things.