Lokkan said:Kalgore said:Ive always ran groups for Spells or items not just because I wanted XP. I planned my excursions and made sure we went to places that dropped certain items etc etc.
Sorry, for my reference I was thinking primarily of EQ, where iirc items were fewer/farther between (getting that ___ upgrade lasted for many many levels). I found later games to be saturated with items that it would be difficult to not be doing something for a specific item.
I played EQ and That holds truer for EQ then it did for any game. It was harder and more contested so I planned even more carefully. Finding a good PUG be damned I was gunning for certain items on all runs
Furor said:The ability to twink goes above and beyond just the item itself - but will have a direct impact on the economy. I would 100% support twinking Everquest style because it allows items to be tradeable after they've been equipped. This directly correlates to the rarity of those items.
How valuable would a Fungi Tunic really have been if it were a Bind-on-Equip item?
Bind-on-Equip is fundamentally flawed in 2 aspects and I hope it doesn't make its way into Pantheon
1) Extremes of item introduction to the market. The first "wave" of players leveling through all content will most likely desire to use the most valuable items, resulting in extreme rarity on the market. The second "wave" of players will result in a substantial and dramatic influx of items into the economy in a short period of time, resulting in an extreme MUDflation.
2) Stagnation of game play. Because items are not able to be "re-used" they have to be re-farmed. In Everquest if a player went out and camped a Fungi Tunic for their main - and got an item upgrade - they had the luxury of simply passing that Fungi Tunic along to their alt. Bind-On-Equip items contradict this philosophy because you no longer have that option. Instead you're faced with two options - Go and re-farm the second Fungi Tunic yourself, again, or shell out a premium for that item. This is where the stagnation comes into play. Because the game is guiding you back to that same camp spot you've already been to, rather than pulling that item out of the bank and getting to explore new areas.
- Furor
It encourges people to revisit zones and farm it over and over. If you can just buy all your gear and twink out an alt guess who wins. Gold farmers because people will take that easy approach.
As for lower level economies it will destory those as everyone will be looking for those ultra rare twink gear and ignoring Vendor and craftsman tools. Part of EVES success is that you cant really twink. You cant just buy 300 billion isk and be flying the best spaceship and packing the best weapons day 1. It will also trivilize lower zones. After all why visit the crypt of Kalgore and farm that pretty awesome Crusader sword when you can buy that ultra Uber Sword of twink
Even is a lot of stuff ends up being no-drop it's not all that hard in the end. Really early in my cleric bot's levels I ran him to Grieg's End and got him this hammer because it was easy to do and a decent hammer given how basic of a kill it was. So while we usually think of twinking as buying or handing down gear to alts, unless there are level restrictions there's not always a way to prevent it.
Don't get me wrong, I'm all for some thinking because I see it somewhat as a reward to those players who got to high levels (or get money in whatever method) and decided to spend their money or farming time that way. There definitely needs to be limits so that everything isn't tradable and certainly procs/clicks need to have level requirements so you don't get a lvl 1 proccing for 500dmg on mobs that average 15hp. Or at least have large tiers. 1-20, 20-35, 35-50, 50-60. A system like that allows for twinking but not for buying a full set a gear and never having to replace it until max level. I have mixed feelings on recommended + required levels on gear, but it wasn't too bad of a system realistically.
The main problem I see with lack of twinking is what people have mensioned before about not being able to sell gear as easily. If a level 30 can afford that level 50 BP you're getting rid of then all the better. It benefits both of you and doesn't kill the price of high end items that will just start piling up and crashing in price.
The prog system will definitely have an effect on the importance of twinking.
Kalgore said:It encourges people to revisit zones and farm it over and over.
That is precisely my point. I don't want to be encouraged to re-vist zones to farm gear again. If I'm able to twink my character - then what drops is irrelevant and I can focus on leveling wherever I feel is the most enjoyable.
- Furor
Furor said:Kalgore said:It encourges people to revisit zones and farm it over and over.
That is precisely my point. I don't want to be encouraged to re-vist zones to farm gear again. If I'm able to twink my character - then what drops is irrelevant and I can focus on leveling wherever I feel is the most enjoyable.
- Furor
Nothing stops you from doing that. all twinking does is allow people to pretend they can actully play a class and feel OP as they level up without dying. Twinking is the solution to people not being able to play a class without insane gear not meant for the level
Honestly, twinking is fun and I hope it's in game. It can also be an incentive to lure some of your RL friends to play, and incentive for you to make a character with them. That being said, I would want damage caps, haste caps, general stat caps and things like that based on level so that you can twink a char up and have fun but not be OP.
Is "Mentoring" in this game? Anyone know. Talk about something that kills games. In EQ2, I can mentor down to level 10 and absolutly run through a dungeon of level 20's like a hot knife through butter. I mean I love the feeling of being all powerful, but friends I've help introduce to the game, doing this ruins it for them and doens't help them at all.
I hope mentoring is out, forever.
The first time I hear about twinking to be honest.
What might be a solution is introducing a wielding process where the twinked player needs to visit many locations in the world(and beat certain challenges),in order to unlock the full powers of that artifact.
This way players can still give gifts that mean a lot to other players.
While the player who gets "twinked" still has to travel the world in order to unlock the powers to use it at full potential.
So we keep it about the content/journey at the same time
This has come up a few times in the streams and from what I understand VR will not do anything to stop it. Items can be used by players but they will scale down due to skill level.
For me I dont care if people do or dont. That being said guilds I am in usually never allowed members to bring alts along on raids and have never passed off gear to alts unless it is absolutely not needed and then we ask payment but give a discount from average AH pricing. Usually 20% off AH prices.
People whining and complaining is what gave us games like World of Warcraft in the first place.
You complained about grinding, we ended up with the cursed quest-hubbing system.
You complained about traveling, we ended up with insta-traveling mechanics.
You complained about the death penalty, we ended up with meaningless death penalties that don't really matter.
You complained about buffs making content too trivial for the lower levels, we ended up with short duration buffs that are forgettable.
You complained about leveling taking too long, we ended up with MMOs you can hit the max level with in 2 weeks.
You complained about NPCs being too harsh and hard to solo, we ended up with 1-2 seconds a pop conveniently seperated XP_Bag_001 NPCs.
And now you complain about twinking and we'd end up with item-level-restrictions...
This kind of whining is what's ruining our games.
Why can't we stop looking at the small nausance and look at the big picture. We will never get a perfect game but if we start complaining we're just going to eventually push Pantheon to what EQ live is NOW. A Mutation of a game, just because people been whining and ranting. How about just ignore about a few people twinking their alts and trivializing the low level content (a little bit) and just make it so the devs not worry about designing an itemization system with a lot of restrictions which would probably limit design creativity???????
Kalgore said:Furor said:Kalgore said:It encourges people to revisit zones and farm it over and over.
That is precisely my point. I don't want to be encouraged to re-vist zones to farm gear again. If I'm able to twink my character - then what drops is irrelevant and I can focus on leveling wherever I feel is the most enjoyable.
- Furor
Nothing stops you from doing that. all twinking does is allow people to pretend they can actully play a class and feel OP as they level up without dying. Twinking is the solution to people not being able to play a class without insane gear not meant for the level
and what's wrong with that? Just because someone actually had a main who worked hard on and got a few certain items they want to use on their alts doesn't mean it's a bad thing. Let me tell you that I am not a twinker, I'm the kin of player who will hit max level last. I'm someone who usually have the shittiest gear in a group. I remember grouping in Crushbone and I remember grouping with a twink; he was way more powerful than your average player but we weren't invincible by any means. What worries me is not that this player will plow through content easier than the rest of us, what worries me is the restrictions that may occur because of this dilemma. Let people who choose to take the path of twinking do what they want, they're already plowing through content at higher levels anyway. Let them go back to the old content with a little bit of advantage this time. Why is this a bad thing? I don't understand.
Twinking was never something that bothered me and again this is coming from someone who's main had worse gear than your average twink.
Twinking would be a lot better in a world where items break or require very expensive repairs.
Not having any durability on items really exacerbates a lot of other problems that crop up like twinking.
If a lower level player used a high level weapon don't you think it's feasible that they could damage the weapon easier with their lack of technique causing you to have to do expensive repairs to it more often ?
Even with item sinks that allow you to sacrifice them for a bonus there is not enough incentive to really destroy good items and not just feed in the mediocre stuff.
I've thought about this quite a bit and I still can't see anyway to have a robust game economy without items that break or need repairs to continue using them.
Thanks again,
Kiz~
Kittik said:Is "Mentoring" in this game? Anyone know. Talk about something that kills games. In EQ2, I can mentor down to level 10 and absolutly run through a dungeon of level 20's like a hot knife through butter. I mean I love the feeling of being all powerful, but friends I've help introduce to the game, doing this ruins it for them and doens't help them at all.
I hope mentoring is out, forever.
What if mentoring just changed you into an exact copy of your character as you were at the level you mentored down to ?
This would not make you overpowered at all.
Thanks,
Kiz~
Vanguard had a cool solution to this durring beta. They dropped it soon after it came in so it never made it to like. Was called Equipment Expertise (EE) or something like that.
Basically you got a certian number of points that you used to equip gear. So at level 1 you had say 10, the 20 at level 2, maybe 25 at 3, whatever it was. Well gear didnt have level restriction on it, just a number of points that it took to equip it. A level 50 chect peice might cost 150 points. Well if you level 25 character only had 155 EE points then you could still equip it, just not much else.
Gave you the freedom to equip most eveything but still maintained some sense of preventing way over powered twinks. Something like that would be great. I dont want to see bind on equip at all and very little no drop stuff. I also dont want to see level 15 characters soling through content at record speed. So maybe something like this system could strike a balance.
@Laura
I understand your points, but my OP wasn't meant as a complaint, but rather keep the challenge of Original EQ throughout the game, expand on EQ's already existing scaling system for Pantheon, versus trivializing content later due to twinking. And to be clear, I Want twinking, I just want it consistent throughout all items(to include raw hps/ac/regen, etc.) versus only having a portion scaled by level/skill level like EQ like STA/INT/WIS/Damage Caps etc. It's actually a counter to what you're suggesting. If EQ gear was left in its original state throughout its existence, nearly 3/4 the world would be trivialized and you would have a game, EZmode like WoW. I don't want Pantheon to follow the same curve, but be more difficult than EQ.
If viewing EQ through Launch-Velious, twinking wasn't "too" powerful outside a few items, but it wouldn't be sustainable forever. There has to be some sort of mechanism in place, and, I'd much rather it not be /bind on equip, /no drop, /bind on pickup type restrictions.