@Dekaden As to armor proficiencies, that could totally be used to scale AC. I wouldn't mind if you mouseover your stamina and it tells you how much you hp you get for each point, but I don't personally think thats necessary on items (such as 50(23)).
Stat scaling actually existed in EQ. It worked.
My experience on this is limited but it was a bad one. WoW had this going full bore. It created a group of people I know I would never go into a PUG. I guess I never understood the concept. I was far more interested in content and leveling that way than the path they took. Also these were for PvP exclusively or at least that is what I remember. If this a PVE primarily why would we need Twinks? Not being nasty just asking for some insight.
Ox
Its not about needing them, its about the freedom to do what you please. Its about creating a virtual world without restrictions.
There should always be a reason for players to seek out their peers, so even a twink should not be self sufficient. That doesn't mean you slap nodrop tags and item prereqs on everything though.
Dullahan said:Its not about needing them, its about the freedom to do what you please. Its about creating a virtual world without restrictions.
There should always be a reason for players to seek out their peers, so even a twink should not be self sufficient. That doesn't mean you slap nodrop tags and item prereqs on everything though.
No absolutely not. Thanks for helping me see another side of this one. I agree you should be able to do what you want how you want within game guidelines. I always associated twinks with pvp players and “elite” status that was supposed to foster. I guess this falls under the “to each his own” clause.
Ox
Oxillion said:No absolutely not. Thanks for helping me see another side of this one. I agree you should be able to do what you want how you want within game guidelines. I always associated twinks with pvp players and “elite” status that was supposed to foster. I guess this falls under the “to each his own” clause.
Ox
Right on. Then, lets say for instance, a player wants to play the role of a trader. He buys and sells to accumulate wealth. Eventually, he has the capital to suit himself in a really nice set of adventuring gear. Well, if there is nothing especially nice to buy for a low level character, because everything has level prereqs, that would indirectly harm commerce and an alternate form of advancement.
Dullahan said:Oxillion said:No absolutely not. Thanks for helping me see another side of this one. I agree you should be able to do what you want how you want within game guidelines. I always associated twinks with pvp players and “elite” status that was supposed to foster. I guess this falls under the “to each his own” clause.
Ox
Right on. Then, lets say for instance, a player wants to play the role of a trader. He buys and sells to accumulate wealth. Eventually, he has the capital to suit himself in a really nice set of adventuring gear. Well, if there is nothing especially nice to buy for a low level character, because everything has level prereqs, that would indirectly harm commerce and an alternate form of advancement.
I think my perception and actual experience was tainted. I have felt and still do to an extent that it breaks immersion. What I forget is that is immersion for some folks. It provides that environment that allows people to do what you stated. I can also see another side with gear limitations based on level. Maybe I could not find what I was needing or wanting and did what I could from a specific level and in a sense twinking the character to meet the needs of the situation.
Dullahan that was awesome! Pantheon therapy at work!!
Ox
Twinking is a non-issue period. This subject is EXTREMELY important to me. The positive far out weigh any negative if any. For example and maybe the most important is not making the same mistakes again. When we look back to Everquest it survived for years with no item or buff restrictions. The exception was epic and end game raid gear. I can remember when Planes of Power was released. Donations for ports was the druid and wizard's bread and butter. The negative impact of taking that away from them was great. This was what I would call the beginning of the end. The fall of population begins. People were now looking to buffs as their viable money maker. One spot enchanters would sit was PoK offering to K.E.I. (Kodiac's Endless Intellect) for donations. For those who are not familiar, it was a group buff. It added mana regen plus intellect and wisdom. It also lasted for hours and with extended duration gear I think it would max for four hours. There was no level restriction. I would venture to to say that four hours was the average persons play session.(not hard core) This would allow the casters in your group to do more damage or heal bigger and more often. It is now possible to take your group farther in a dungeon that was other wise not available, giving your group more experience and better chance at rare item drops. This ability was a positive influence on the economy and the player experience for those who don't have as much time as others. It would also create interactions between higher and lower level players that would not take place after level restrictions are set in motion. I don't see a down side. The opposite is true. Take that all away and what do you have? That enchanter is now contesting your mob for loot because they lost that option. The social interaction between so many is now gone and is now narrowed down to a "level appropriate" audience and those four hour weekend players are now seeing half the experience gain.#BUMMER
The same can be said about item restrictions. The tank with the fiery avenger , fungi tunic and flowing black silk sash is melting mobs in your group in lower guk and the healer barely has to heal. Take that away and now that tank is just your average Joe. The economy is going to be negatively effected also. If I can't equip it then I am not going to buy it and when I am able to equip it I can most likely get friends together and acquire it myself.
A part of me feels that jealousy plays a big part of this debate. If I can't have it no one should. I hope this is not the case.
Has an MMO ever implemented a system where xp rates are scaled by equipment used? Let's say a lower level warrior gets twinked-out with a powerful flaming axe, maybe it works as good for him as it would anybody else (chance to do fire damage doesn't just -for some unexplainable reason- proc more often with a higher level character closer to the level of the axe). Though by using this weapon they will trivialize some combat. The character doesn't really "experience" as much challenging combat as somebody who has to use a weapon in their own level range, ergo they don't level as quickly as the character that is being challenged. Then it would come down to finding a happy medium between how effective the character wants to be vs how quickly they want to progress, "Maybe I want to use this gear that is one tier down from this other, higher-level item that will have a stiffer xp penalty, maybe that will put my character in the sweet-spot for this zone". It could potentially add another layer of depth to the game and open up new options for rerolling veterans that are looking for another way to challenge themselves. Maybe the player wants to take more risk for more reward by fighting mobs that non-twinked characters can't take to gain the experience he/she is missing out on by using such items on mobs closer to his own level. What are your guy's thoughts on this?
Dullahan said:Oxillion said:No absolutely not. Thanks for helping me see another side of this one. I agree you should be able to do what you want how you want within game guidelines. I always associated twinks with pvp players and “elite” status that was supposed to foster. I guess this falls under the “to each his own” clause.
Ox
Right on. Then, lets say for instance, a player wants to play the role of a trader. He buys and sells to accumulate wealth. Eventually, he has the capital to suit himself in a really nice set of adventuring gear. Well, if there is nothing especially nice to buy for a low level character, because everything has level prereqs, that would indirectly harm commerce and an alternate form of advancement.
However, you *would* then have the capital to buy the best level-appropriate gear available or a fast track to any trade skill in which you were interested. I think buying twink gear would really be just one of many reasons to want to build wealth through trading.
@Killabits
You raise some good points in your post - especially in regards to buffing and no restrictions. Buffs such as temperance and KEI were used and offered as donations post PoK era. I'm all for interdependence, and I'd usually be for no restrictions, but I do think there does come a point where buffs are "too" powerful for a low level player which does ultimately trivialize the experience. If a level 40-50 was receiving it in Gukbottom, there still potentially could be a challenge; however, if a level 20 was receiving it in Unrest, they'd be nearly unstoppable.
And, even back in early EQ - buffs had level limits. I've posted a list from Shaman's Crucible for reference - it's a bit past PoP era, but you can still get the idea from the level 60 buff range - you had to be level 45 to receive KEI:
Buff Spell Range: Required Player Level:
Level 1-50 Level 1
Level 51 Level 40
Level 52-53 Level 41
Level 54-55 Level 42
Level 56-57 Level 43
Level 58-59 Level 44
Level 60-61 Level 45
Level 62-63 Level 46
Level 64-65 Level 47
Etc.
A little off topic, but... As far as buying gear goes, I don't think it's a huge issue. A "non-twink" would hardly have the coin to pay for items like the Fungi that would "trivialize" content. And even then, if you used some of my/Dullahan's suggestions on scaling it through a recovery skill, it wouldn't trivialize it anyhow. You're correct, the argument does seem more toward if they didn't earn it the "right" way by adventuring, then they shouldn't be able to buy it - even though the platinum/gold, etc. may have came through legitimate means in-game, and not some sort of RMT scheme.
I'm all for alternative ways for advancement, progression, etc., and if someone farming hill giants wants to try to better themselves that way, then so be it, it doesn't make an item any less rare/prestigious because someone is able to buy it. The supply of the item needs to be kept in check (rare drops) versus having everything be /no drop.
____________________________________________________________
@Ardemyr,
Interesting idea there, but how would you control it? What would be considered a "twink?" When would the gear become level appropriate and the player be awarded the full experience rate? Etc. In theory, I could see why that would make sense - the player didn't have to try as hard or use as much skill to accomplish a task; however, I think in practice, it would be nearly impossible to implement.
*Edit - couldn't get the chart to paste right
I was thinking about ways to balance high level buffs the other day. I think if the duration of the buff was scaled by player level, that might do the trick.
Say a level 50 buff has a 1 hour duration. A player within a certain range (say, 10 levels) would have the buffs full duration. On a level 25, it would mean the buff would only remain on the character for 30 minutes instead of an hour. On a level 10, the same buff would last 12 minutes. In that case, it would be more beneficial to them to use a buff closer to the player's level.
killabits said:
Twinking is a non-issue period. This subject is EXTREMELY important to me. The positive far out weigh any negative if any. For example and maybe the most important is not making the same mistakes again. When we look back to Everquest it survived for years with no item or buff restrictions. The exception was epic and end game raid gear. I can remember when Planes of Power was released. Donations for ports was the druid and wizard's bread and butter. The negative impact of taking that away from them was great. This was what I would call the beginning of the end. The fall of population begins. People were now looking to buffs as their viable money maker. One spot enchanters would sit was PoK offering to K.E.I. (Kodiac's Endless Intellect) for donations. For those who are not familiar, it was a group buff. It added mana regen plus intellect and wisdom. It also lasted for hours and with extended duration gear I think it would max for four hours. There was no level restriction. I would venture to to say that four hours was the average persons play session.(not hard core) This would allow the casters in your group to do more damage or heal bigger and more often. It is now possible to take your group farther in a dungeon that was other wise not available, giving your group more experience and better chance at rare item drops. This ability was a positive influence on the economy and the player experience for those who don't have as much time as others. It would also create interactions between higher and lower level players that would not take place after level restrictions are set in motion. I don't see a down side. The opposite is true. Take that all away and what do you have? That enchanter is now contesting your mob for loot because they lost that option. The social interaction between so many is now gone and is now narrowed down to a "level appropriate" audience and those four hour weekend players are now seeing half the experience gain.#BUMMER
The same can be said about item restrictions. The tank with the fiery avenger , fungi tunic and flowing black silk sash is melting mobs in your group in lower guk and the healer barely has to heal. Take that away and now that tank is just your average Joe. The economy is going to be negatively effected also. If I can't equip it then I am not going to buy it and when I am able to equip it I can most likely get friends together and acquire it myself.
A part of me feels that jealousy plays a big part of this debate. If I can't have it no one should. I hope this is not the case.
Agreed level restriction and no drop items took the fun out of the game. I enjoyed twinking my ALTS because I already put in the time and effort to get a character to max level. So many games offer perks to come into the game and get some charcater to max level yet twinking is a bad thing ?
Raidan said:@Ardemyr,
Interesting idea there, but how would you control it? What would be considered a "twink?" When would the gear become level appropriate and the player be awarded the full experience rate? Etc. In theory, I could see why that would make sense - the player didn't have to try as hard or use as much skill to accomplish a task; however, I think in practice, it would be nearly impossible to implement.
Not being any sort of developer, I can only speculate (crudely at that) on how to manage such a system. The only thing that comes to mind at the moment would be if items and player levels were assigned a certain value system that kicks in when a player equips an item above their own level. When an item(s) raises the value beyond the set threshold of a character's level value a drop in xp starts to build incrementally based on how far the number is taken beyond the set value of the player's level. You could hover over your xp bar and it will tell you, "gaining 80% xp due to equipment" or 45% and so on until you gain no progress. Admittedly, here are a lot of glaring issues with a system like that though. Aside from locking a character's level to farm gear (if VR is planning a system to prevent people from farming lower level items) one of the many other issues would be several items would have to have their value tweaked as user data starts to come in, it could quite possibly be a never ending process that gets thrown into the whole nerf/buff mix of updating as time goes by. But maybe (and I concede that it's a stretch) VR could come up with a baseline value system that works well enough to make the process of nerfing/buffing xp impeding items manageable enough to incorporate on a realistic level through patching.
Fungi Tunic is a pretty extreme example... There weren't many items like that in EQ that basically made you near invincible while leveling up. I think the best approach to twinking is let people have it... A lot of people like pimping out low level characters in badass gear. So who is that hurting? Regardless if the game is intended for groups or not there are going to be those who prefer to solo and not all twinks want to solo. They just need to avoid game breaking items for low levels like the Fungi Tunic.
Vaildez said:Fungi Tunic is a pretty extreme example... There weren't many items like that in EQ that basically made you near invincible while leveling up. I think the best approach to twinking is let people have it... A lot of people like pimping out low level characters in badass gear. So who is that hurting? Regardless if the game is intended for groups or not there are going to be those who prefer to solo and not all twinks want to solo. They just need to avoid game breaking items for low levels like the Fungi Tunic.
I agree with this. You can even have items like a Fungi Tunic in the game. You make those items similar to Epic items. They are acquired through quests, not simple mob kills, and are some of the few (very few) No-Drop items in the game.
@Vaildez and JDNight,
I'm not sure if you're understanding my intent in this thread. The fungi tunic was an extreme example. But I could have also used items with +100 hps, etc. Basically any item that provided Raw Hps/Mana/Regen that wasn't managed at all gave a huge advantage as there was no scaling at all. A level 10 with 1000+ AC, 1500 hps, and a Fungi was unstoppable in Unrest.
With that said, I want twinking like EQlaunch; however, I also want ridiculously overpowered items like the Fungi tunic or other game-breaking items to be managed as they did trivialize content. Yes, some twinks would still solo regardless of whether the Fungi (or other items) were full power or not, but, allowing a twink to solo slowly versus allowing a twink to be able to ridiculously overpower a level appropriate zone is a world of difference. A twink still may gain more benefit from grouping with others if items were managed, but, they most definitely wouldn't if the Fungi was like EQ launch, and could solo zones with ease and without downtime. Also, it wouldn't seem unrealistic if a player didn't receive full benefit from an item primarily if they didn't have the same skillsets as a high level player - basically, it could realistically be explained away.
So, my proposal was to keep the EQ scaling system as it was at launch in tact (most people didn't even pay attention to its existence) and just expand on it further to include a recovery skill, a defensive skill, and perhaps an item knowledge skill so AC bonuses / Hp/Mana regen / Raw Hp/Mana bonuses would scale similarly to the weapon damage limits that were present at EQ launch.
Raidan said:@Vaildez and JDNight,
I'm not sure if you're understanding my intent in this thread. The fungi tunic was an extreme example. But I could have also used items with +100 hps, etc. Basically any item that provided Raw Hps/Mana/Regen that wasn't managed at all gave a huge advantage as there was no scaling at all. A level 10 with 1000+ AC, 1500 hps, and a Fungi was unstoppable in Unrest.
With that said, I want twinking like EQlaunch; however, I also want ridiculously overpowered items like the Fungi tunic or other game-breaking items to be managed as they did trivialize content. Yes, some twinks would still solo regardless of whether the Fungi (or other items) were full power or not, but, allowing a twink to solo slowly versus allowing a twink to be able to ridiculously overpower a level appropriate zone is a world of difference. A twink still may gain more benefit from grouping with others if items were managed, but, they most definitely wouldn't if the Fungi was like EQ launch, and could solo zones with ease and without downtime. Also, it wouldn't seem unrealistic if a player didn't receive full benefit from an item primarily if they didn't have the same skillsets as a high level player - basically, it could realistically be explained away.
So, my proposal was to keep the EQ scaling system as it was at launch in tact (most people didn't even pay attention to its existence) and just expand on it further to include a recovery skill, a defensive skill, and perhaps an item knowledge skill so AC bonuses / Hp/Mana regen / Raw Hp/Mana bonuses would scale similarly to the weapon damage limits that were present at EQ launch.
I get what you are saying but I just didn't see the +HP/+Mana items as gamebreaking without the Fungi. With health regen so slow it wasn't as huge of an advantage having a much larger health pool you could just play more lazy.
I think one other good argument against twinking is that it removes the need for crafting at lower levels. Another thing I really liked in Vanguard is that there was a demand for top tier crafted weapons at all levels due to how good they remained. Quest rewards from lower levels, same thing. Dungeon drops, same thing.
In VG ran the Hunter's League and Coterie Infineum Sanctuary questlines a dozen times each for my army of alts, and bought plenty of expensive crafted stuff in the in-between levels. If I could have just passed down a bunch of gear from my main it would have been pretty disappointing to only ever run that content for experience. I probably wouldn't have made any alts at all, to be honest, just due to how gear acquisition on those characters was half of the interest I had in playing them.
@Liav, wouldn't that be considered more of a design flaw in the game? If you wanted to run a dungeon (while not max level) just for loot.
I think one of the main things lost in current mmo's and their race to the max level, was the journey. Having levels take so much more time, by comparison to current mmo's, coupled with having to group for them, made you appreciate having a good group to just exp with. Item's weren't the only drive for doing something, so a simple group that made good exp and some coin turned into a good day for playing - you log off feeling like you made progress in a sometimes tough world.
I would say as to the subject of passing quest items down, well maybe those shouldn't all be droppable? That or at the least make the quest reward class specific? That way it would have less benefit to that player as a twinking item, but still have some value for trade when outgrown?
Lokkan said:@Liav, wouldn't that be considered more of a design flaw in the game? If you wanted to run a dungeon (while not max level) just for loot.
I think one of the main things lost in current mmo's and their race to the max level, was the journey. Having levels take so much more time, by comparison to current mmo's, coupled with having to group for them, made you appreciate having a good group to just exp with. Item's weren't the only drive for doing something, so a simple group that made good exp and some coin turned into a good day for playing - you log off feeling like you made progress in a sometimes tough world.
I would say as to the subject of passing quest items down, well maybe those shouldn't all be droppable? That or at the least make the quest reward class specific? That way it would have less benefit to that player as a twinking item, but still have some value for trade when outgrown?
Ive always ran groups for Spells or items not just because I wanted XP. I planned my excursions and made sure we went to places that dropped certain items etc etc.
Liav said:I think one other good argument against twinking is that it removes the need for crafting at lower levels. Another thing I really liked in Vanguard is that there was a demand for top tier crafted weapons at all levels due to how good they remained. Quest rewards from lower levels, same thing. Dungeon drops, same thing.
In VG ran the Hunter's League and Coterie Infineum Sanctuary questlines a dozen times each for my army of alts, and bought plenty of expensive crafted stuff in the in-between levels. If I could have just passed down a bunch of gear from my main it would have been pretty disappointing to only ever run that content for experience. I probably wouldn't have made any alts at all, to be honest, just due to how gear acquisition on those characters was half of the interest I had in playing them.
If the economy is working, all of those items will still be valuable and sought after. When a powerful item is equippable at any level, it only increases the value making it even less attainable by the average player. Unless crafted is bind on equip, those too will decrease in value and become common. An unrestricted free market has a way of working itself out.
Kalgore said:Ive always ran groups for Spells or items not just because I wanted XP. I planned my excursions and made sure we went to places that dropped certain items etc etc.
Sorry, for my reference I was thinking primarily of EQ, where iirc items were fewer/farther between (getting that ___ upgrade lasted for many many levels). I found later games to be saturated with items that it would be difficult to not be doing something for a specific item.
The ability to twink goes above and beyond just the item itself - but will have a direct impact on the economy. I would 100% support twinking Everquest style because it allows items to be tradeable after they've been equipped. This directly correlates to the rarity of those items.
How valuable would a Fungi Tunic really have been if it were a Bind-on-Equip item?
Bind-on-Equip is fundamentally flawed in 2 aspects and I hope it doesn't make its way into Pantheon
1) Extremes of item introduction to the market. The first "wave" of players leveling through all content will most likely desire to use the most valuable items, resulting in extreme rarity on the market. The second "wave" of players will result in a substantial and dramatic influx of items into the economy in a short period of time, resulting in an extreme MUDflation.
2) Stagnation of game play. Because items are not able to be "re-used" they have to be re-farmed. In Everquest if a player went out and camped a Fungi Tunic for their main - and got an item upgrade - they had the luxury of simply passing that Fungi Tunic along to their alt. Bind-On-Equip items contradict this philosophy because you no longer have that option. Instead you're faced with two options - Go and re-farm the second Fungi Tunic yourself, again, or shell out a premium for that item. This is where the stagnation comes into play. Because the game is guiding you back to that same camp spot you've already been to, rather than pulling that item out of the bank and getting to explore new areas.
- Furor