Aradune said:Ideally, the community deals with most of these problems. If I guy consistently is a jerk then people should shun him -- he should become a pariah. And if nobody will group with him, he's going to have a tough time. Hopefully, he re-rolls, comes back with a new character, and stops being a jerk.
That said, there are times where we as the game's host have to step in.
It's far too early for me to reveal a detailed CS plan and a set of rules, etc. I can say that we're not going to have a police state with GMs everywhere making sure eveyrbody is super nice all of the time. 1. That wouldn't really be fun and 2. It would be prohibitively expensive to employ an in-game totalitarian regime.
Yes, we will likely have 'report' and 'snapshot' and we will log things.
But if the action is not egregious (and I mean like screaming racist things and other intolerables), we are setting up a game where the community is very important and empowered to act. This is a social,, cooperative game. If your actions alienate you from the community you are not going to be able to enjoy the game for very long.
Thats a nice thought but I really feel people are dreaming. Some people will be shunned but those players that are the best at there class and are needed can say and do anything they want and still find groups. I think it just boils down to deal with it put in a /ignore for the people that refuse to group with that peron and go about your day. Hell I grouped with people that had me on ignore all the time and couldnt see anything I typed never bothered me.
I prefer the EVE model and thats pretty much not exploit in game bugs and no big long rants every day in global chat and the GM's dont really care. but everything else is fair game
My thought is if someone is deliberately training into others or other groups. As long as the other group or player chooses not to engage, then the trainer maintains all the hate until they zone out, get pulverized by their own train and the mobs reset.
OakKnower said:My thought is if someone is deliberately training into others or other groups. As long as the other group or player chooses not to engage, then the trainer maintains all the hate until they zone out, get pulverized by their own train and the mobs reset.
No. Mobs leashing or "resetting" is exactly why most games since EQ have been feel-good vending machines that are mediocre at best. I can hardly recall anything significant or noteworthy from any of these "modern" MMO abominations. However I regularly recall the glory days from EQ with the people I actually met playing EQ 13 years ago.
The greatest MMORPG ever (EQ) had trains. Pantheon should have trains too.
Keep the environment dangerous. Limit the hand holding. No built in mechanics to put kid gloves on the environment.
Let the mobs agro whoever is close. If a "Rabid Undead Tiger" loses agro on someone and strolls past your sitting character, it should agro. It HAS to agro. If not, the environment is just weak and doesnt command respect. I want this game/environment to be dangerous and unforgiving. Most of all, I want it to be memorable.
Suspend players who take it too far on PvE servers.
PvP servers can handle it internally. Suspensions for those who take it too far.
In a modern game, surely a /report system will be good enough?
It would be easy enough to set up automatic alerts for GMs if the database gets 30 reports for the same person in 15 minutes, then they perhaps take a peek at the data. If there's enough evidence of nastiness they keep an eye on it, if 30 more reports come in they perhaps they check logs of activity, then they maybe send a tell to the offender, etc, etc, escalate, blah, blah, warn, etc, etc, BAN-HAMMER!
I *don't* agree with just leaving it to the community - short of some player viewable up/down-rating system, in a game with 1000s of players noone will be 'shunned' and memories are short.
Simple /report and statistics queries would enable a limited number of GMs to keep control.
/agree Greattaste
Its important that Pantheon doesn't sanitize everything making it impossible for other players to affect you negatively. Sure, there should be some precautions to marginalize griefing, but when you do things like making mobs immune or entirely predictable, it has other side effects that make the game both easier and boring. Those were important parts of EQ that made the world seem just a little more alive. You never knew for certain whether a dangerous mob might be roaming in a strange place coming back from a chase.
I would think if enough people reported them for this behavior they would have a suspension of some kind. That being said some people do run for their lives rather than face a penalty for dying. Me, personally, id run but if i saw people at zone entrance I would suck it up and die...which does not mean the mobs won't aggro still. This is a tough call. If its intentional then yes sanctions should be put in place, however, if you get trained just send a tell, most people will say sorry. If they do it repeatedly, report them for a ban.
Angrykiz said:I'd like to think that a person who gets labeled on your server as that guy who trains everyone would generally be shunned from groups and guilds preventing them from advancing much at all.
Kiz~
It works and if players continue to grief you can contact their guild leadership and they will deal with it, you need other people to advance in this kind of MMO. Reputation of players and guilds will matter.
If the guild doesnt help you can /petition and let the GM deal with it
Zorkon said: Yup Karnors Castle, Train Capital of Norrath... it was a nice peaceful until THOSE types came arround!
KC had two places to zone in, most would train to one side and give a warning it was coming.
Atleast on my server it was rare for someone to train without a warning.
By and large, trains were a known quantity. Certain zones had a higher than usual frequency for them, others a lower one.
Karnors was *so* busy for trains that there was even a 'designated' route for 'in' and another for 'out. (and you were meant to pull your trains to the 'out' fork. Camping at the zone meant being aware. Keeping an eye out for possible trains.
Sol B had a nightmare zone-in area. Narrow, tight quarters, choked with people ... a disaster area waiting for the next train. If you were there LFG, you kept your eyes open. You also worked assiduously to clear some of the trash at the zone-in down in case of trains. Which happened. Often.
Of course, all these examples are of 'inadvertent' trains. Purposeful training was rare. People were careful of their reputations, for the most part. BUT if you want to look at the causes of training and perhaps some methods to limit it...
1. Look carefully at the mechanics of skills like FD. Very carefully.
99% of intentional in-zone training (drag mobs to your group) are done with classes which use FD.
There is almost no way to insta-remove aggro apart from FD.
2. Nearly all the other trains end up at zone boundaries. This is something players can police themselves. They can ensure they don't sit *right* at the zone-in, or at least off the main in/out path.
***
We can, therefore, fix most 'train-to-groups' griefing by re-working FD a bit.
Perhaps FD doesn't *always* remove 100% aggro
Perhaps the FD'er has to hit the FD button with under 25% health.
Perhaps 'animal level' intelligence mobs will always 'savage' any FD'er (ie take a bite).
This is perhaps a 'bad' fix for the problem... I am not in a position to say as I never did play any of the FD classes. It would certainly make pulling harder in some cases.
Possibly there are ways round this,
perhaps making sure that they always bring mobs right to the groups,
perhaps make sure to be careful to only pull the requisite numbers of mobs, or
perhaps to have a 'layered pull'. Puller grabs and kites 5 mobs and 2nd puller 'pulls' from those.
Evoras said:By and large, trains were a known quantity. Certain zones had a higher than usual frequency for them, others a lower one.
Karnors was *so* busy for trains that there was even a 'designated' route for 'in' and another for 'out. (and you were meant to pull your trains to the 'out' fork. Camping at the zone meant being aware. Keeping an eye out for possible trains.
Sol B had a nightmare zone-in area. Narrow, tight quarters, choked with people ... a disaster area waiting for the next train. If you were there LFG, you kept your eyes open. You also worked assiduously to clear some of the trash at the zone-in down in case of trains. Which happened. Often.
Of course, all these examples are of 'inadvertent' trains. Purposeful training was rare. People were careful of their reputations, for the most part. BUT if you want to look at the causes of training and perhaps some methods to limit it...
1. Look carefully at the mechanics of skills like FD. Very carefully.
99% of intentional in-zone training (drag mobs to your group) are done with classes which use FD.
There is almost no way to insta-remove aggro apart from FD.
2. Nearly all the other trains end up at zone boundaries. This is something players can police themselves. They can ensure they don't sit *right* at the zone-in, or at least off the main in/out path.
***
We can, therefore, fix most 'train-to-groups' griefing by re-working FD a bit.
Perhaps FD doesn't *always* remove 100% aggro
Perhaps the FD'er has to hit the FD button with under 25% health.
Perhaps 'animal level' intelligence mobs will always 'savage' any FD'er (ie take a bite).
This is perhaps a 'bad' fix for the problem... I am not in a position to say as I never did play any of the FD classes. It would certainly make pulling harder in some cases.
Possibly there are ways round this,
perhaps making sure that they always bring mobs right to the groups,
perhaps make sure to be careful to only pull the requisite numbers of mobs, or
perhaps to have a 'layered pull'. Puller grabs and kites 5 mobs and 2nd puller 'pulls' from those.
Good players with Feign Death never took the mobs all the way to the zone line, if they did it was because they intended to train it. Most trains were created by classes running for their lives that couldnt drop aggro, so they would zone out. If youre at the zone in you should be paying attention and players should give a warning if they dont its a hit on their reputation.
Wouldnt make FD only work at a % of health that would hurt classes with the skill at pulling for raids or groups.
Hold people accountable through their guild leadership or petition a GM and their reputation will matter.
FD was a class and game defining ability that was perfectly instituted in EQ. FD in everyother game has been a bad imitatation that limited the control of the puller or "trainer". Nothing needs to be "reworked".
FD was a work of art in EQ. Trains were a respect demanding feature of the environment. Bad pullers or bad-actors earned a reputation as such.
Not everyone who trains the zone was doing it intentionally, spells hitting would break your FD, and failed FD attempts can lead to running for your life.
Would Karnor's or SolB have been as nerve-wracking without the threat of trains? You knew your time was limited.
If its not broke, dont fix it.
Give habitual trainers a week or 8 vacation. (Suspension)
I am merely a fan of statistics and logic. I wracked my brain to come up with an answer for:
'how would i intentionally drop a train on a group?'
Without FD, I cannot think of a 'simple' way to do it - short of droppping dead at their feet.
... hence my comment that FD would *seem* to be a skill needed by intentional trainers.
... hence, *if* there was going to be a 'fix' to try to address 'intentional training', it would need to consider FD carefully.
BUT, as I also said :
Evoras said:... This is perhaps a 'bad' fix for the problem... I am not in a position to say as I never did play any of the FD classes. It would certainly make pulling harder in some cases.
Possibly there are ways round this, ....
I don't feel I can adequately comment on FD, or if indeed a 'fix' or a 'replacement for FD pulling' based on this sensible, doable or even warranted... for that I open this up to people who *did* use FD and know its ins and outs. You would have a much clearer pcture of 'pulling dynamics' than I would.
Evoras said:I am merely a fan of statistics and logic. I wracked my brain to come up with an answer for:
'how would i intentionally drop a train on a group?'
Without FD, I cannot think of a 'simple' way to do it - short of droppping dead at their feet.
The way players without Feign Death would drop aggro was by zoning, then mobs would then attack anyone within aggro range. Think rogues could drop aggro also without zoning.
It's not training if they shout a warning to let you know it was coming. I played a monk and if I couldnt FD them off, I would die before running a train over players, then ask for a res lol
Intentional training was a pain in EQ, but one thing that I really enjoyed was turning it around on people. When I was first in Sebelis, we would get trained all of the time by people trying to solo various named mobs. I took it upon myself as an enc to be able to control everything while the rest of the group killed whatever named was on us, then we would run and let everything else reset. Ticked off numerous people to no end, but it wasn't anyone's fault but their own!
*edited for spelling...need to replace this keyboard, my daughter spilled her sippy cup on it earlier today :(
Irriaden said:Intentional training was a pain in EQ, but one thing that I really enjoyed was turning it around on people. When I was first in Sebelis, we would get trained all of the time by people trying to solo various named mobs. I took it upon myself as an enc to be able to contol everything while the rest of the group killed whatever named was on us, then we would run and let everything else rest. Ticked off numerous people to no end, but it wasn't anyone's fault but their own!
That sounds like emergent gameplay : ) Players who train on purpose wouldnt last long on our server, reputation would catch up to them.
You get what you give.
Aradune said:Ideally, the community deals with most of these problems. If I guy consistently is a jerk then people should shun him -- he should become a pariah. And if nobody will group with him, he's going to have a tough time. Hopefully, he re-rolls, comes back with a new character, and stops being a jerk.
That said, there are times where we as the game's host have to step in.
It's far too early for me to reveal a detailed CS plan and a set of rules, etc. I can say that we're not going to have a police state with GMs everywhere making sure eveyrbody is super nice all of the time. 1. That wouldn't really be fun and 2. It would be prohibitively expensive to employ an in-game totalitarian regime.
Yes, we will likely have 'report' and 'snapshot' and we will log things.
But if the action is not egregious (and I mean like screaming racist things and other intolerables), we are setting up a game where the community is very important and empowered to act. This is a social,, cooperative game. If your actions alienate you from the community you are not going to be able to enjoy the game for very long.
i like the last part this is a social/cooperative game and I personally don't want resources or personal to have to deal with community issues . Thats
what the community is for . Plus people will get reputation . Never had a problem in EQ if you trained most got out of way others made sure you were shunned . It's as social issue that should be dealt with by the community . Of course if it becomes a major issue then by all means report :):)
Evoras said:By and large, trains were a known quantity. Certain zones had a higher than usual frequency for them, others a lower one.
Karnors was *so* busy for trains that there was even a 'designated' route for 'in' and another for 'out. (and you were meant to pull your trains to the 'out' fork. Camping at the zone meant being aware. Keeping an eye out for possible trains.
Sol B had a nightmare zone-in area. Narrow, tight quarters, choked with people ... a disaster area waiting for the next train. If you were there LFG, you kept your eyes open. You also worked assiduously to clear some of the trash at the zone-in down in case of trains. Which happened. Often.
Of course, all these examples are of 'inadvertent' trains. Purposeful training was rare. People were careful of their reputations, for the most part. BUT if you want to look at the causes of training and perhaps some methods to limit it...
1. Look carefully at the mechanics of skills like FD. Very carefully.
99% of intentional in-zone training (drag mobs to your group) are done with classes which use FD.
There is almost no way to insta-remove aggro apart from FD.
2. Nearly all the other trains end up at zone boundaries. This is something players can police themselves. They can ensure they don't sit *right* at the zone-in, or at least off the main in/out path.
***
We can, therefore, fix most 'train-to-groups' griefing by re-working FD a bit.
Perhaps FD doesn't *always* remove 100% aggro
Perhaps the FD'er has to hit the FD button with under 25% health.
Perhaps 'animal level' intelligence mobs will always 'savage' any FD'er (ie take a bite).
This is perhaps a 'bad' fix for the problem... I am not in a position to say as I never did play any of the FD classes. It would certainly make pulling harder in some cases.
Possibly there are ways round this,
perhaps making sure that they always bring mobs right to the groups,
perhaps make sure to be careful to only pull the requisite numbers of mobs, or
perhaps to have a 'layered pull'. Puller grabs and kites 5 mobs and 2nd puller 'pulls' from those.
In EQ Chanters were a pretty good class for griefing as well.
Pull a bunch Time AE stun to land as the mobs got to you, area blur and run away. If the group you did it too was currently engaged when AE Stun Wore off... Assist Aggro Lit Them up.
Angrykiz said:I'd like to think that a person who gets labeled on your server as that guy who trains everyone would generally be shunned from groups and guilds preventing them from advancing much at all.
Kiz~
Agreed. Non-issue (edit: minor issue) in a difficult MMO with which requires grouping and guilding to succeed. The occasional villian pulling trains add a layer to gameplay and 'community'.
Just checked for Level to get Aibilty/Spell FD. (16 for spell, 17 for skill).
For chanter (Thanks SunMistress - forgot about them) need above 16 for AE aggro-wiping iirc.
So what this means is... for 'intentional training' up to level 11 :
(a) Drop dead in front of the rgoup you are training
(b) zone-out and catch people sitting at the zone-in with your train.
Since it seems unlikely people are going to die to train a group (and certainly not going to be able to do it repeatedly - ie griefing) since they would likely need to do a CR or lose exp each time - this leaves 'training to zone' as only 'viable' method for intentional training.
People will quickly learn where to sit, and where *not* to sit at zone-ins... and so avoid getting trained.
After level 10, they need to PAY for their subscription... and also need to group (thus need a good reputation).
By and large I imagine the community would be able to police the few idiots still training by level 16.
Any 'excessive' training (read = griefing) can be passed to VR for some heavy-handed slapping-down.
Caveat: There *will* be a large number of complete ass-hats playing the 'free' levels (since they have been taught by other MMO to be that way) and they *will* need some form of 'oversight' from Guides - if for no other reason than to ensure 'good players' who are trying out a proper MMO for the first time are not made to rage-quit from being trained repeatedly by these idiots.
I don't think anything needs to be done, let the community handle it.
Now I will add one thing about the whole "Tell their guild leader" option. That worked early on in EQ, and a few other games I;ve played, but as guild became these enormous entities, some began to care less what their members did, as they didn't need any help from the outside community to do their thing, and therefore just blew off any issues raised.