I think trains created some of the most hilarious situations in EQ so I would vote that we don't ask for any regulation or game mechanic to stop it. Smart groups move away from zone lines or learn to deal with troublemakers by not inviting them to a group in the future. I just don't want this to become a slippery slope where whiney people report everyone who dares to interrupt their gameplay in an MMORPG.
Prindan said:
I think trains created some of the most hilarious situations in EQ so I would vote that we don't ask for any regulation or game mechanic to stop it. Smart groups move away from zone lines or learn to deal with troublemakers by not inviting them to a group in the future. I just don't want this to become a slippery slope where whiney people report everyone who dares to interrupt their gameplay in an MMORPG.
Well said. And I am in total agreeance.
Prindan said:
I think trains created some of the most hilarious situations in EQ so I would vote that we don't ask for any regulation or game mechanic to stop it. Smart groups move away from zone lines or learn to deal with troublemakers by not inviting them to a group in the future. I just don't want this to become a slippery slope where whiney people report everyone who dares to interrupt their gameplay in an MMORPG.
I like that this game will have a smaller community means, like eq, that people's reputation will mean something. If your that *EXPLETIVE* that trains peoples, KS'es, and is otherwise a jerk people will know this and only groups you will get is with other like minded people.
As far as pulling mechanics I hated when EQ put in its new NPC aggro. As a puller on a monk, a bard and a ranger it would suck to have to stay within about 50 yards of the mob to keep it chasing you, or if you grabbed too many mobs would just stop chasing you period.
Giving PRF's resources not sure it would be worth it but I would like to see an intelligent aggro system. One where a mob will decide how long or how far it wishes to follow you. If your KoS to his people, have 100 plat on you and are 25 levels below him he might chase you anywhere in the zone, as you are worth the chase. However same mob might only chase a character that is 10 levels higher, only has 1 plat on him and is only slightly disliked might only chase you 100 yards.
Intentional training should be dealt with on a community level and a GM Level. If the community can't stop a person from doing it, and it is becoming a nuisance to the server as a whole or to a general group/guild then a GM should step in. If it is a person who just sucks at pulling and needs to be taught a lesson- let the community handle it.
I think server forums would be enough to dissuade bad behaviour. Also if leveling is difficult that would help in discouraging even the thought of villainous deeds. Because the price of those choices would be having to create a new character and grinding through those levels again.
Please understand...
Pathing in EverQuest was juvenile. The AI in Pantheon and the pathing will be much more dynamic. Trains will take on a whole new meaning in Pantheon. I think aggro control will be much more of an artform, than in EverQuest.
Brad has 64 bits and 8 gigabyte game world to put you in. He is a ******* sedomasochist genius. He mad us take off from work, and spend 26h with people we bearly knew, to sit in a dungeon waiting on a known quest mob, for Jounreyman's boots. Can you imagine how insane we'll be going when those mobs and events are randomized, and not a given. How many strings Brad can leave dangling.. and leaving you uncertain where to look. His new player controller is what is going to make this game's mechanics insane.
Pantheon is going to uproot marriages and sack people from their jobs.
And... Leroy Jenkins aint got nothing on the trains you'll see in Pantheon.
The unofficial VR stance is basically - If you ruin someones gameplay or enjoyment of the game by intentionally training, a GM, Dev or Staff member will deal with you, if it was a one-time thing or an accident, it will be left for the community to handle. :)
As Amsai pointed out, PvP would be a completely different matter and would require skill or teamwork to overcome, as training can be used as a strategy ;)
I truly hope that intentional training is a reportable and bannable offense, especially if corpse runs are implemented. There were numerous times where we had a group at a specific spawn camp and when a second group showed up, their monk would wait until we were in combat, go round up some mobs, FD next to us, and wipe our entire group. Then their group would come in and steal the spawn while our entire group had to do a CR....
I actually thought this was one of the single most frustrating things in all of Everquest... Because as a warrior/cleric duo I was completely helpless against it.
Written about this before, and I am OK with whatever system they come up with as long as it's consistent. Don't give me the "SOE does not recognize camps, but does recognize trains" nonsense. Either there are rules against griefing, or there aren't, and camp stealing is griefing same as running trains on people is. Ask any necro who did the necro thing and got a camp locked down only to have weaksauce wood elf decide that now they'll start poaching respawns since friendly necro made the camp easy to single pull. That's a straight camp steal, but it was allowed, while sending the interloper packing was not.
Just call it both ways Ref, that's all I ask. If I can't FD train you, then you cannot steal the camp I just broke and got working on a nice safe exp rotation.
I'd prefer a system where griefing gets suspended/banned, but again, just make sure ALL griefing is treated equally, not just trains.
What ever happened to just dealing with it and either get even or ignore it?? Reporting people for training or other griefing things takes away from the MMO experaince. You need to take the good with the bad. I was trained in EQ and EQ2 all the time because I was a class that had massive AOE attacks and I would solo places so it made it hard. But guess what I died or got away and then went about my business or got even
I undertsand this problem all to well.. Yet what is the best remedy? A jail system, that could be manipulated?, Having 100 GM's police the issue??, and a few other idea's I saw..
My remedy is the remedy that was seen back in my days of EQ.. Oddly enough I never had that issue in MUD's heh.. CHARACTER reputation.. This has been missing for years from the gaming community, and as it is known.. There are some people that just cannot help themselves from being a jerk. You are responsible for your actions and this has to be a very important aspect of any real RPG.. Sure its frustrating, sure your time has been wasted.. Yet this player that did this to you will gain a reputation.. They will have a hard time taking part in honorable guilds if at all and eventually what happens is all those that participate in these acts will clump up as one.. Then they suffer the might of the rest of the server, PVP obvious how it works.. PVE not being allowed to participate in any sort of "turn base" when it comes to high end mobs etc.
The best part of EQ was the player created ruleset for honor and conduct and the swift problems it created for the jerks.. I saw so many have to start over in order to be accepted and behavior obviously changed.. There in no way shape or form be any kind of "name change" ability in the game.. Well I take that back... 500$ name changes.. would prove to be not only profitable either on the payment being made or the person would create a new character and it would set him back quite some time so the monthly fee's will rack up..
Thank you for listening,
Skezix
Hieromonk said:Prindan said:
I think trains created some of the most hilarious situations in EQ so I would vote that we don't ask for any regulation or game mechanic to stop it. Smart groups move away from zone lines or learn to deal with troublemakers by not inviting them to a group in the future. I just don't want this to become a slippery slope where whiney people report everyone who dares to interrupt their gameplay in an MMORPG.
Well said. And I am in total agreeance.
I second this point!
There are some questions I think that people need to answer before they just say "Something bothers me, I want it banned!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!".
1) Are camps first come first server, or do we compete over them. (Personally I'll just move on and fine somewhere else if it's taken but that's me)
2) If we do compete training is a non-issue, so just move on. (You can take this a step further. If they follow you camp to camp and train non-stop that's harrassment and deserves a ban)
3) If do not compete then who gets to decide how many times is bannable. The first time, the third, the tenth.
I know this thread is specifically about "INTENTIONAL" training. But what if YOU **THINK* it's intentional and it's not. So here's some what if's just to get my point across.
What if it's an accident? What if they're triyng to get somewhere but keep getting screwed by mob pathing? What if they're getting trained themselves and you do see that happening? What if it's their first time there and something spawned/patched to them and the ran and in turn trained to you? What if they're equal to the zone, so most of the time they win, but sometimes have to flee and you get trained in the process? What if someone was pulling and one of your groupmates aoe'd and you didn't notice, but it pulls the train to you? There's hundreds of more you can come up with. They all can be taken as intentional training from your perspective but not from theirs. So should you have the right to ban someone or get someone banned because of your perspective?
Personally I'd rather not get someone banned until it escalated to the point of harrassment. I would never get someone banned for bothering me.
This has been discussed a lot. In EQ there was a rule "no circumventing the PVP switch". I would assume it would be exactly the same in EQ. And players doing self policing straight up does not work against hardcore griefing. Griefing the griefer solves absolutely nothing. Refusing to group with a griefer has 0 impact on their ability to train you.
Coined said: There should be absolutely no rules/regulations or mechanics at leased from the devs on this subject! This is where the players need to police themselves. The last thing i want to see is devs waisting time and energy enforcing and monotoring this when the could be doing more for the game! What ever happen to getting ahold of other poeples guild leaders and stuff.
If someone is intentionally killing other people via trains, for example, that is outside the rules of the game and is the same as hacking or botting and absolutely requires a GM. It is cheating. There is NOTHING you can do to stop someone from training you. Tattle to their guild leader? What if they aren't in a guild? Refuse to group with them? So what? They can still round up mobs and dump them on you. Train them back? Have you ever dealt wit a bully? That kind of aggressive reaction is exactly what they want. The only solution in this type of scenario is intervention from a higher power.
Krixus said:Coined said: There should be absolutely no rules/regulations or mechanics at leased from the devs on this subject! This is where the players need to police themselves. The last thing i want to see is devs waisting time and energy enforcing and monotoring this when the could be doing more for the game! What ever happen to getting ahold of other poeples guild leaders and stuff.
If someone is intentionally killing other people via trains, for example, that is outside the rules of the game and is the same as hacking or botting and absolutely requires a GM. It is cheating. There is NOTHING you can do to stop someone from training you. Tattle to their guild leader? What if they aren't in a guild? Refuse to group with them? So what? They can still round up mobs and dump them on you. Train them back? Have you ever dealt wit a bully? That kind of aggressive reaction is exactly what they want. The only solution in this type of scenario is intervention from a higher power.
I played eq for 5 years and never one time had a problem you are describing. I dont know what MMOs you have played in the past but with the idea that pantheon will have a similar player base as EQ it would be my assumption that it will be a very grown up, mature audience. EQ seemed to be just fine without "tattling" to a GM. Fact is you wont be able to get very far in pantheon with others help. If you taint your own reputation server wide i think that is policing enough.
Ideally, the community deals with most of these problems. If I guy consistently is a jerk then people should shun him -- he should become a pariah. And if nobody will group with him, he's going to have a tough time. Hopefully, he re-rolls, comes back with a new character, and stops being a jerk.
That said, there are times where we as the game's host have to step in.
It's far too early for me to reveal a detailed CS plan and a set of rules, etc. I can say that we're not going to have a police state with GMs everywhere making sure eveyrbody is super nice all of the time. 1. That wouldn't really be fun and 2. It would be prohibitively expensive to employ an in-game totalitarian regime.
Yes, we will likely have 'report' and 'snapshot' and we will log things.
But if the action is not egregious (and I mean like screaming racist things and other intolerables), we are setting up a game where the community is very important and empowered to act. This is a social,, cooperative game. If your actions alienate you from the community you are not going to be able to enjoy the game for very long.