Not having quite the play time I used to have Im torn here. I absolutely loved the EQ death penalty and found great joy in raid corpse runs and helping people out. I also loved the loss of xp because it meant you couldnt raid every night as you had to spend time getting xp back
I definately think the xp loss should stay... maybe make the xp loss a little more severe but give the option to either do a corpse run to get your xp back and continue on or loose the xp and have your items come back to you at your bind point when you die.
In the end I really want death to be a serious consideration when it comes to planning out certain situations and how to proceed
I can live with how EQ did the penalty, but I was always partial to the thought, if you die and revcover your corpse, there is no penalty. The time and risk of fighting back naked was the penalty. And a pretty rough one if you think about some of the situations you could end up in. If you are ressed or if you use a graveyard system to summon your corpse to the entrance instead or retrieving your corpse, 10% penalty. I support de-leveling simply because if you are barely over the level, the risk of death changes peoples behavior and that is a good thing :P
Vexbrood said: I am 100 % behind the death penalty being exactly as harsh as it was in Everquest. “Don’t fix it if it ain’t broke.” We want that old school EQ feel, in fact that is exactly who this game is tailor made for, so why get away from what made the community so strong, and that, I do believe was the bond made between saving another or barely making it out and the true feeling of pride when you accomplish an amazing feat.
Yes, yes, and yes! :) Absolutely. I’m 100% behind the death penalty being as harsh (if not more) as it was in Classic Everquest.
Syrif said:Vexbrood said: I am 100 % behind the death penalty being exactly as harsh as it was in Everquest. “Don’t fix it if it ain’t broke.” We want that old school EQ feel, in fact that is exactly who this game is tailor made for, so why get away from what made the community so strong, and that, I do believe was the bond made between saving another or barely making it out and the true feeling of pride when you accomplish an amazing feat.Yes, yes, and yes! :) Absolutely. I’m 100% behind the death penalty being as harsh (if not more) as it was in Classic Everquest.
I totally agree with Syrif and Vexbrood and hope that the Death Penalty is kept as it was originally. It should be costly to make mistakes. It also adds a great level of accomplishment when you complete a quest, task, kill. (imho ymmv)
Aradune said:So I've said in the past that the death penalty will be somewhere in-between vanillia EQ and vanilla VG. So there will be a corpse. What is undecided is whether you just need to get to your corpse to lose less experience or whether it will have your items on it (and then is it all items or a subset?). And some other details.
The reason we've not made these decisions yet is that something like the severity of a death penalty needs to be determined during beta so we can tune it such that people respect the environment but aren't discouraged to explore and take risks. Something like this and the details of several other systems really require a decent population of people playing the game, listening to them, watching them, etc.
I like the option where we have to return to our corpse in order to restore some of the lost XP. Add de-leveling to the mix while also ensuring that XP is always considered a precious resource (something that is truly difficult to gain/maintain) and we have the perfect death penalty in my eyes.
I am all in for EQ death penalty with tweeks!!, I am good with loseing a level and losieng EXP. But as for naked corps runs that can take hours to get your body back, that is where the line needs to be drawn, all the old school EQ players that lived throught the Hell levels (level 45) and fear brakes that did not go so good. We got to experiance the naked corps run with threat we could lose our corps. We all have Job's and kids, mortgage's and maybe a wife. We don't have time for the supper long corps runs like we once had. Lets also be honest we want this game to be supper successfull to bring back the best parts of EQ so we can log into packed servers and have a full community, we should not be looking to just bring back old EQ players, we should want this game to bring in a hole new group of mmo players that have only had wow to play and in 2018 people can't/wont sit there for a corps run that takes hours or even an hour.
There needs to be some type of auto summon corps or mechanisame that people can use to get there corps that is easy to access, if they want to loot with out a res that is up to them but we can't go back in time and lose so many potental players.
Disscord said: We got to experiance the naked corps run with threat we could lose our corps. We all have Job's and kids, mortgage's and maybe a wife. We don't have time for the supper long corps runs like we once had.
Personally, I don't mind naked corpse retrieval as long as it's not going to be from across the world. I suggest two things:
1) All classes should be able to 'bind' their respawn location either 'anywhere' or at least at specific spots within every zone (or just outside dungeon zones).
2) Graveyards in each zone (or just outside dungeon zones) where you 'respawn' when you die.
When you die, you should be given an option to goto Bind location or nearest Graveyard. If you are 'ressurrected' before you make a choice, obviously you don't need to respawn anywhere.
Call me an outdated old man, but I feel that anyone that is against the possibility of losing items when you die and/or having to go on a "corpse run"" is too young to remember when MMORPGs were truly great. If you don't want to be seriously penalized when you die, maybe you should stick to WoW. God that game is horrible.
I feel that there should be serious consequences to death. It enforces the need to find good players to adventure with. It makes a cleric not only a desirable companion but almost a necessity. The more difficult a game is the longer it holds your interest. If leveling is easy and there are no penalties people will get bored with the game because there is no real challenge. Subscriptions will go into the toilet in a year or so.
Sixstringer said:Call me an outdated old man, but I feel that anyone that is against the possibility of losing items when you die and/or having to go on a "corpse run"" is too young to remember when MMORPGs were truly great. If you don't want to be seriously penalized when you die, maybe you should stick to WoW. God that game is horrible.
I feel that there should be serious consequences to death. It enforces the need to find good players to adventure with. It makes a cleric not only a desirable companion but almost a necessity. The more difficult a game is the longer it holds your interest. If leveling is easy and there are no penalties people will get bored with the game because there is no real challenge. Subscriptions will go into the toilet in a year or so.
So well said!! Agree with everything :) Regaining gear and items on corpse recovery is necessary, as is some exp that requires specific rez. It’s called recovering your corpse for a reason. NO watered down death penalty, and please absolutely NO graveyards!!
Sixstringer said:Call me an outdated old man, but I feel that anyone that is against the possibility of losing items when you die and/or having to go on a "corpse run"" is too young to remember when MMORPGs were truly great. If you don't want to be seriously penalized when you die, maybe you should stick to WoW. God that game is horrible.
So we may love the story and races of this game, the approach to class design, the group-focused combat, the emphasis on exploring the open world, and so much more... but because we don't like a single minute detail, we should just "go back to WoW" (a completely different type of MMO)?
Fine with running back to my corpse... not fine with losing items or deleveling.
@Naunet That’s why you recover items from your corpse so you don’t lose them ;)
And that’s why you get a specific Rez so you regain some exp ;)
I agree with him though, WoW must be pretty terrible. No EZ mode here, please!
I must apologize I think I was miss understood, I am not saying we should not have corps runs. I fully embrace corps runs but they should not be naked corps runs and there must be another readily available way to summon your corps, be it with plat or some type of item hand in to an npc. You would still require a res to regain some of your exp.
Sixstringer said:
Call me an outdated old man, but I feel that anyone that is against the possibility of losing items when you die and/or having to go on a "corpse run"" is too young to remember when MMORPGs were truly great. If you don't want to be seriously penalized when you die, maybe you should stick to WoW. God that game is horrible.
As for @Sixstringer the hole point of Pantheon is to bring back the best MMO experience, an experience that a lot of MMO players now days have never gotten to experience because all they have had is WoW and WoW clones. But people in todays world will not put up with a massive time sync just to get there corps back. They will just go play something else, and then it will be just you and your 5 bots playing, just like EQ is today.
We should all be pushing for a balanced approach to some of the mechanics of the game because it's truly no fun playing an mmo by your self.
@ Disscord I don’t think that’s true. I think most of the Classic community is coming back here because they are sick and tired of the watered down mmo crud out there now. People tolerated the challenge and depth then, and they long for it again now. No reason to not have challenge and depth again with corpses.
@Syrif I agree 100% but there can be balance as well, loss of exp on death and potential loss of level with max res of 90% is a high risk, it is even more potent if they introduce hell level's like the original Everquest. There is no need to add in a Naked run from your bind spot into say the ( Solb freeti room) that took you and your group an hour to brake and lock down, when you had gear now try doing it again with no gear. You can get the same challenge and depth experience if you take out the naked part of that run. You still must run and re-brake your camp and then res. If someone wants to go I would rather them jump out of the group and summon their stuff, rather have to re-brake that camp and then have them take off and screw over the people that stay.
Cool. Well whatever the outcome, all I can say imo is there needs to be great depth and challenge with corpse and death.
Death penalty in EQ served multiple purposes, which are all desireable in Pantheon as well:
1. risk - VR wants you to genuinely feel the trepidation and weighing of potential dangers in your own gut as you sit at your computer, the same as your avatar would feel. Having a painful death penalty (albeit with cooperative ways to mitigate it) is a cornerstone of this. My worst but oddly vivid memory from 1999 was when I got ticked off in Lower Guk and ended up dying 6 times in a row trying to recover my corpse since it was very late PST and I couldn't find anyone to help; I had just leveled when the dying started, hence I ended up losing 2 levels ultimately, but I never ever forgot that night and could write the details about it down right now 19 years later. Great risk makes you realize that surviving dangerous situations is much more memorable and satisfying than merely collecting junk will ever be.
2. reward - Overcoming death(s), or just the threat of it, is a big part of why you feel accomplishment in even the most mundane tasks in classic EQ. Item rewards were rarely a thing, it was all about the gauntlet of difficulty and perseverance that got you past a challenge that was the main reward, and the stories and memories you take from it. If EQ had been about item swag as WoW is, it would never have become the famous MMO we recall now.
3. memories and staying power - There is a reason why people who played EQ almost 20 years ago can still easily recall all sorts of grand events, small moments and hard fights down to the veritable pixel. I can remember all sorts of oddly mundane details like specific points of interest all over the zones, and even the silly textures of grass on zone floors like Innothule Swamp. Challenge and hardship breed appreciation for this sort of struggle. Dealing with death or the fear of it made even crossing zones memorable in this way (along with non-leashing mobs and travel-solo-at-your-own-risk mob strength and trains and reliance on class interdependence and grouping). Early, mid and end-game levels and content ALL had tons of memorable potential, each and every day. It never got old, as long as there were others in the game world who shared your love of adventures like that. Easy games get old quick, which is why they can only throw more content at you frequently which stems the boredom for a short time until it too becomes easy and forgettable. Everquest never "got easy" so it never was forgettable (even the addition of mercs later on to counter dwindling player populations was for forming groups easier by using 'fake players', rather than making the content no longer need a group like practically every other aging MMO has gone the route of - even in the live EQ of today, if you run into a same-level mob, you either run, it kills you, or you spend a sizeable chunk of your HP and/or mana if you can manage to kill it without using a merc).
4. social interaction - EQ was purposely trying to foster interaction with others. It's called an MMO for a reason. They wanted every player to have their own reputation, classes to be different yet complimentary, and players to realize that in almost every scenario in the game they were better off banding together in groups than running around being selfish or solo. The "fun" of the game (and arguably any MMO that is actually an MMO) is in working and socializing with others to accomplish goals and share experiences, not just collect purple items and marvel at your little closet of crap you have. The harsh death penalty, and the fear of losing XP or even a level was a big part of the motivation that drove this behavior.
5. helpful reputation - EQ players would generally go out of their way to help you, because having a good helpful reputation returned the favor in the form of group invites and helping you if you suffered a death that was hard to recover from, which sooner or later everyone did. As a cleric, I performed countless rezzes deep in dungeons for other groups. Sometimes others would kindly ask about for a rez and I was always wanting to feel helpful by offering to help if I had the mana to (or later, my rez stick). Dragging corpses to another camp to get a rez, or to the zoneline to recover and rez after a wipe was a common occurence that everyone seemed to pitch in to help, realizing that all of us shared the same dangers and it could (and would) eventually be us in that position at times. The death penalty was a big part of the feeling that we were all in this world together, and to survive in it we had to genuinely want to mutually help each other. That alone made EQ one of the best simulations of a vast world ever done, and defined what an MMO should really be able to evoke in players' minds. Sometimes groups would stop what they were doing and go help another group get back down to their camp, or kill off a train then return to their own camp - and it would still be there unclaimed because there was a sort of code of ethics everyone followed because they knew they needed to have some rules to help each other out.
6. class reliance and interdependence - The class mechanics themselves were designed to share the responsibilities of preventing, mitigating and recovering from death. Many classes had skills that were in-demand to help with one or more of these situations, which just added to the overall helpfulness or the population toward each other since anyone may need the aid of others if they died. A stealth or FD class dragging corpses, a summoner to summon corpses, a speed class to buf or help get people across a dangerous zone, a porter to transport players back to their corpses or to bring in extra help for the recovery process, or a priest to resurrect and recover XP. Also roles that most people forget were just as necessary in a death recovery: a pet class to stand guard while others recovered HP and mana and lost rez sickness, rebuffing everyone since no bufs stuck through death (and many folks would lose fancy bufs they got outside the dungeon).
These are some of the reasons, not all but the most important ones for a cohesive and immersive MMO to have.
In looking for Balance in the death penalty I don't think it unreasonable to expect
On a good night one wins the day and has the potential to gain a great piece of armor or weapon, so in turn on a bad night one has the potential to loose a great piece of armor or weapon.
On a good night one wins the day and has the potential to gain a Level, so on a bad night the potential to loose one should be there as well.
On a good night one wins the day and the raid/group all gets a teleport to bind, on a bad night one finds themselves naked at a safe spot nookie for a invisible or a corpse summon or somebody able to drag there corpse back for them.
Risk vs. Reward... I think if you want to get rid of any of the bad you should also be willing to sacrifice the contrasting good that goes with it.
Anything less I would consider asking for hand holding.
And I hope that's not pantheon.
I'm all for the penalty EQ had, I played far more careful back then, ALSO! on a side note maybe it's a good excuse to get Necromancers rolling faster after release!! With corpse summons and stuff right? :) I used to have a special place in my heart for that spell!
and a special Coffin collection too :O
Hello Folks,
I have no doubt this idea has been surfaced on this thread, but I'm excited about this game so wanted to put my thoughts out there anyways.
What if you keep normal corpse run behavior from EQ (die, respawn naked, special classes can help, etc...), but have a fallback option where you can seek out NPC's that can summon your corpse possibly for money and/or other consumables. BUT for this summon there is a random chance of losing items. So for a summon you might lose 2 or 3 random items from your inventory, plus the XP. This kind of puts a floor on how bad things can get for you, but still make death sufficiently painful that you are going to want to recover your corpse by the usual means.
Some Possible Mechanics:
* faction impacts how high quality your summon is, so there might be a time penalty imposed as you run to some far away zone for the right NPC
* Pay more in game cash for better item loss probability, this could help deflate currency.
* If your corpse expires, you're corpse will re-appear the next time you log on at the nearest grave yard with some item loss probability, maybe you lose 30% of your gear if you let it expire.
wbarksdale said:Hello Folks,
I have no doubt this idea has been surfaced on this thread, but I'm excited about this game so wanted to put my thoughts out there anyways.
What if you keep normal corpse run behavior from EQ (die, respawn naked, special classes can help, etc...), but have a fallback option where you can seek out NPC's that can summon your corpse possibly for money and/or other consumables. BUT for this summon there is a random chance of losing items. So for a summon you might lose 2 or 3 random items from your inventory, plus the XP. This kind of puts a floor on how bad things can get for you, but still make death sufficiently painful that you are going to want to recover your corpse by the usual means.
Some Possible Mechanics:
* faction impacts how high quality your summon is, so there might be a time penalty imposed as you run to some far away zone for the right NPC* Pay more in game cash for better item loss probability, this could help deflate currency.
* If your corpse expires, you're corpse will re-appear the next time you log on at the nearest grave yard with some item loss probability, maybe you lose 30% of your gear if you let it expire.
The idea of corpse runs are player interaction, if you let a npc summon your corpse that part is gone. And if you risk loosing items noone would ever want to do that summon (if we talk about EQ).
And making it automated with npcs, defies the point of an EQ ish MMO. Then you may just as well remove it :).
After all i just liked the EQ death penalty for what it stood for. Risks that made the game world feel more real then todays mmos, where you die and just run back for 2 mins. You actually had to be carefull, since it did matter. (Cant say this about todays mmos).
I am torn also I played EQ when it first came out and had plenty of time but now that I have a family I can't sit down everyday for 5-6 hours. I'm hoping when they finally unveil death penalty that it has XP lost but instead of old school corpse runs maybe have a graveyards. Then put them in a remote area of that zone so you still have to run back to your group/area you were fighting in but it wont take hours.