Darch said:This may "sound like a good thing" in theory, but in practice nothing would kill this game faster than not being able to progress until your entire raid outgears/outlevels the content you are trying to defeat because you basically get one attempt before losing your levels (effectively weakening your force for the subsequent attempts). I know it sounds cool and "hardcore" but people will quit the second another MMO came along (and there are quite a few other MMOs coming out in 2020 that look like they will be quite competitive).
If people ever leave Pantheon in great numbers because the death penalty makes raiding at max level frustrating, VR will have failed their mission anyway. They have repeatedly stated that the game is primarily about the journey and less about the perceived end game. They have also said that their ambition is to keep players interested for several years. Consequently, the majority of characters must be expected to be below max level at any given time. Whether they plan to achieve this by ecouraging alt creation, slow leveling or fast content expansion remains to be seen. Probably a combination.
Jabir said:If people ever leave Pantheon in great numbers because the death penalty makes raiding at max level frustrating, VR will have failed their mission anyway. They have repeatedly stated that the game is primarily about the journey and less about the perceived end game. They have also said that their ambition is to keep players interested for several years. Consequently, the majority of characters must be expected to be below max level at any given time. Whether they plan to achieve this by ecouraging alt creation, slow leveling or fast content expansion remains to be seen. Probably a combination.
They have also said this game/end-game isn't focused on raiding but instead is primarily aimed at group content. Too many people zeroed in on raiding as THE end game activity.
Iksar said:They have also said this game/end-game isn't focused on raiding but instead is primarily aimed at group content. Too many people zeroed in on raiding as THE end game activity.
This is more about itemization than anything. The reason for the raid focus is because that is where the best gear is usually found. If Pantheon is itemized in a way that the best gear is found in single group content that will be the focus.
philo said:This is more about itemization than anything. The reason for the raid focus is because that is where the best gear is usually found. If Pantheon is itemized in a way that the best gear is found in single group content that will be the focus.
Best to split the top gear up so it is distributed between all content, and not too heavily in one place over others.
Iksar said:philo said:This is more about itemization than anything. The reason for the raid focus is because that is where the best gear is usually found. If Pantheon is itemized in a way that the best gear is found in single group content that will be the focus.
Best to split the top gear up so it is distributed between all content, and not too heavily in one place over others.
This will help, but raiding will still result in "end game".
Iksar said:They have also said this game/end-game isn't focused on raiding but instead is primarily aimed at group content. Too many people zeroed in on raiding as THE end game activity.
Raiding is group content. Unless you mean small group content specifically, but even so, it's the same idea - just on a smaller group scale. Kill big, strong bosses with a group, get cool loot.
Naunet said:Raiding is group content. Unless you mean small group content specifically, but even so, it's the same idea - just on a smaller group scale. Kill big, strong bosses with a group, get cool loot.
Would be odd for them to separate it from grouping if it were intended to be the same thing when talking about how they are trying to avoid the term 'end game' or otherwise being the same as every other MMO when it comes to high end content :
"We're trying to avoid the term 'End Game' because it has evolved into something far different than what it literally means. In some games, the perception that the true game, the ‘fun’ game, doesn’t begin until the 'end game' came to exist. The reason why isn't super important and varies depending on the game but with Pantheon you won’t be compelled to rush to the final levels.
First, even if you could rush to maximum level, you would be incredibly ill-equipped to handle high-end combat. Because you found some way to rush (perhaps a bug, etc.) your character won't have what it needs to do well at the higher levels. Second, most content in Pantheon will be designed around grouping, with smaller amounts designed for soloing and raiding. Pantheon is not primarily a raiding game, though we know many in our community enjoy raiding. Same with soloing -- it is not Pantheon's focus, but some people like to solo occasionally. Also, there is no reason why we couldn't have, say, level 20 or level 30 raids. In other words, there is nothing magical or special at the final levels that somehow allows you to experience an aspect of Pantheon that was previously hidden. "
Iksar said:Would be odd for them to separate it from grouping if it were intended to be the same thing when talking about how they are trying to avoid the term 'end game' or otherwise being the same as every other MMO when it comes to high end content
My only point was that raiding is group content. VR wants to focus on small group content, which is fine, but as I said, it's still likely to follow the same general idea of killing powerful bosses for loot.
Lots of pages on this discussion. But it certainly has veered way off course than what was initially asked. It was an inquiry into what we thought would be the perfect death penalty and how it should be implemented.
The first few pages had a lot of ideas and lots of suggestions for implementation. Even had Aradune, himself, weigh in commenting on the value of the discussion and indicating there were a lot of good ideas. I feel this discussion has devolved. Anyone who has not followed this thread from the beginning I think would find a lot of valuable insights into going back and reading from the beginning.
Go get a coffee and try to enjoy the thoughts and ideas put forward and how they could be implemented.
Firstly, my introduction to MMOs was WoW. Having said that, while I used to greatly dislike the idea of death penalties, I am very enticed by them. I agree with the idea how difficult challenges breeds feelings of accomplishment and feeling rewarded. This is why I am now very much for a death penalty system. My friend and I were discussing this yesterday and he mentioned a great idea, though I do not know if it or something similar has already been suggested here. His idea is,
If a player dies they would not receive an experience loss or debt, but instead an experience debuff which reduces xp gain by 50%. This debuff can be for a certain duration, maybe 12 hours, 24, however long. As a player continues to kill mobs and earn experience, this debuff can be lessened. Lets say a player kills 50 mobs and the debuff is reduced to 45%. This can continue until the debuff no longer remains. This allows the player the option to continue playing, or take a break and come back after the debuff has worn off.
These percentages and timeframes are examples and could be changed to be appropriate. I like this because it is not only a system of punishment, it is also a system of reward which motivates a player to be more careful about avoiding death. It is not simply repetitious punishment which has potential to be very demoralizing.
This idea is a little similar to a very cool concept from Cyonide I really liked. I saw it posted here,
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/3353/death-penalty-idea
He may have posted this in this forum also.
While I am really excited about a death penalty, one concept I greatly dislike and cannot get behind is de-leveling. De-leveling is such a psychologically demoralizing concept to me. This is especially true if someone dies in an area that is a high-risk, high-reward area and repeatedly dies because they may have to run back to retreive their body and gear. Others have mentioned ways to offset this by having their corpse somehow moved or spawned at a safe location, but I still greatly struggle with this level of punishment.
Please do not missunderstand me. I desperately want it to be impactful to really establish that sense of dread or fear of dying, and if this is the best concept to do so, then I will adjust my playstyle accordingly.
If there is experience loss, and you support it de-leveling players if it reaches that point, I would really like to hear insight into why you believe it might have more merit over another system.
@Thalrin: I like the idea of an xp debuff. That is actually a death penalty I could get behind! It's not quite so demoralizing as watching all of your effort suddenly go down the drain, but it does have some sting to it. Still, you can choose to continue on and progress, just slower than before.
Agree completely with your thoughts on deleveling.
Thalrin said:If there is experience loss, and you support it de-leveling players if it reaches that point, I would really like to hear insight into why you believe it might have more merit over another system.
The biggest issue with what you proposed is that it becomes inconsequential as soon as players get to max level. Who cares about an "XP Gain Debuff" if XP Gain is no longer factored in as a part of their progression? De-leveling ensures that players continue to respect the environment at max level. Risk vs Reward is paramount and as soon as XP is removed as a variable from the death penalty, it would be skewed to favor the reward side of the spectrum. That's pretty much unacceptable for a lot of reasons that have already been discussed on previous pages of this thread.
If for whatever reason de-leveling is ruled out in Pantheon, I think it's important that some other type of feature/mechanic would be added in it's stead. Here is an alternative idea that I shared awhile back:
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/5753/spiritual-conversion
I am not sure how an xp debuff is different from an xp debt. Some if not most games with xp debts took some xp you gained and used it to pay off the debt and some you got and kept.
You say that the debuff would have a time limit - maybe this is the difference, I do not recall debts going away if you never got any more xp to pay them off with. Maybe they did it has been a long time.
I definitely do not agree with time spent off-line counting to reduce the duration of a debuff. Death should not be totally painless if you die right before you were going to log off anyway. Or if you are an altoholic, as I am, and just switch characters when one dies - which you might have done anyway.
I agree with oneADseven on deleveling. Unless there is some other way to make death *hurt* at maximum level such as a 25% reduction in the impact of your abilities until you earn xp equal to the penalty.
Thank you. Like I said, it was my friend's idea. The example of 50% may not be impactful to create enough discouragement from avoiding death. It could easily be 90% or even 95%. 100% would be the same as a debt or loss (without deleveling). The 90-95% range would still provide progression, and encourage continueded play as you reduced the debuff, but would make the impact more substantial.
I like this concept more than a loss or debt because you are always progressing despite a reduced rate. It is a penalty without losing what you have already earned. Where I think it has opportunity to really shine is when we consider the players. There are different players ranging from the most hardcore to the most casual, and plenty of variations between the two. These players also have varying times during the day and varying lengths of time they are able to play for. This system of punishment does not discourage playing the game, only dying. Let me explain further.
Let's take a hardcore player who has the ability to play ~40+ hours a week. They can continue playing, reduce their debuff, and keep grinding productively.
Let's take the casual player who has a family and can only play ~8-20 hours a week. They do not lose progress, and the limited time they do have to play can still be at least in part productive. This actually increases the incentive of avoiding death while they have time to play.
They could use that time to work on an alt character also.
Most importantly, this system also has potential to encourage players to be responsible with their game time. When someone dies and incurs this xp debuff, depending on the length of time it lasts, people may decide to utilize that time instead to attend to responsibilities, spend time with families, and enjoy other activities or hobbies.
The great part about this system, people can always look forward to continuing to play, or returning to the game to play. A debt or loss can create a sense of “work before play.” Someone who has a debt when they log out may be preoccupied thinking about how much debt they have to work off before continuing to level. This can create a negative outlook towards the game, similar to that of having to go to work.
Once again, thoughtful and insightful constructive criticism is always appreciated.
Thalrin said:The example of 50% may not be impactful to create enough discouragement from avoiding death. It could easily be 90% or even 95%. 100% would be the same as a debt or loss (without deleveling). The 90-95% range would still provide progression, and encourage continueded play as you reduced the debuff, but would make the impact more substantial.
95% XP reduction is still inconsequential at max level. It doesn't matter if it's 1% or 100% if XP gain is no longer considered a factor in progression. If Pantheon were to launch with an AA system where players could continue grinding XP beyond max level then this discussion would be completely different. An AA system is highly unlikely, though, so until there is some sort of confirmation that XP Gain is still going to be a form of progression at max level, an "XP Gain Debuff" would be completely trivialized as a mechanic as soon as people get to max. Plenty of players would focus on doing just that because of the disparity in the penalty.
Thalrin said:The great part about this system, people can always look forward to continuing to play, or returning to the game to play. A debt or loss can create a sense of “work before play.” Someone who has a debt when they log out may be preoccupied thinking about how much debt they have to work off before continuing to level. This can create a negative outlook towards the game, similar to that of having to go to work.
If you would like some real insight on what a meaningful death penalty should look like, please read the following article:
http://www.wolfsheadonline.com/the-death-penalty-mechanic-and-loss-aversion-in-mmo-design/
Loss aversion is a very important ingredient of the death penalty. A sense of loss, when meaningful, is supposed to feel negative.
We often assume that the penalty at level-cap needs to be the same penalty as earlier. This is not necessarily true.
I note that oneADseven's concerns (which I share) apply at level cap they do not invalidate Thalrin's proposal at earlier levels.
I note that Thalrin's objections to deleveling (which I do not share but they are still a valid concern) are most valid *before* level cap when there are many other ways to make death sting.
One can have almost any good system for xp loss earlier in the game and at level-cap when xp no longer matters impose a different system. A debuff for example that costs no experience but that reduces one or more combat abilities for a certain amount of time.
Dorotea is absolutely correct in saying that you can adjust the death penalty at max level, if necessary. That was my initial thought process as well while theory crafting the "spirit conversion" concept. At that time, I was under the impression that de-leveling had already been ruled out as a possibility.
The suggestion of reduced xp gain rates for a certain time results in a very different incentivized action than xp debt.
With reduced xp gain rates you should avoid playing until they wear off. With xp debt you have no incentive to change your playing behavior. While I am not universally against mechanics that artificially incentivize limiting your playtime, I don't think it should be used as punishment.
Ainadak said:The suggestion of reduced xp gain rates for a certain time results in a very different incentivized action than xp debt.
With reduced xp gain rates you should avoid playing until they wear off. With xp debt you have no incentive to change your playing behavior. While I am not universally against mechanics that artificially incentivize limiting your playtime, I don't think it should be used as punishment.
It would also violate one of the game tenets:
"An understanding that player involvement is required for progression. All actions (or lack thereof) should have consequences. Positive actions should be rewarded. Apathy or lack of action should not be rewarded with bonuses."
As a tank, who is often the first to die besides an out of control, one-shotted DPSer, I enjoyed the ORIGINAL EQ2 XP debt mechanic, where everyone in the party SHARED all the XP loss. This greatly encourages other players not to do stupid things to make the tanks and healers die over and over, while never suffering and penalties themselves.