In-game mechanics and features, which ones are the most important to you in MMORPGs and why?
https://www.facebook.com/pantheonrotf/posts/1674062259474974
Oh Yikes Kilsin this is a broad (but good) topic! Good thing I have 8 Eorzean hours to kill.
My favorite Mechanics are Victory Mechanics that provide a condition to be met to kill a mob (or complete a goal). You do not just whack him and he is dead - even if you are a higher than it, some condition must be met to win. Whether it is a puzzle, an AOE avoidence, something that has to be clicked/killed/dispelled/buffed anything to make the fight interesting and it needs to be structured in a Risk versus Reward heirachy.
As for features - the more the better! Especially ones to help kill the time while you are waiting for a group. Brad's games have always done well in this area.
-quests that are infrequent but meaningful.
-mini games that are relevant
-an economy that is player driven and its sinks/faucets well balanced.
-meaningful factions
-crafting/gathering/collecting
-well thought out chat systems /ability to party/emotes/ guild systems - this will be a very social game.
-well customized avatar - not only in looks but in skill development/power. There will be a heavy amount of dedication to play this game so the reward should be a character whose depth matches our investment.
-ability to level skills for the character -let us learn our proficiency.
-No objective markers, quest helpers! :)
-nice to haves (for me) are housing, farming, mounts, ship building and sailing
Kilsin said:
Yeah, I like victory points in named, mini named and raid mobs with the odd random higher ranking mob in a pack but on all mobs? hmm, may get a bit frustrating after a while.
Nice features list, Zarriya! It's like you stole it right from my word document! lol ;)
Not every mob (sorry I was not clear). Although, In Tera for even regular mobs it was helpful to understand the mob type for battle strategies. Your knowledge about these attacks was rewarded, its wasn't that taxing, even enjoyable.
Where is your word doc? I would like to see what you enjoy.
I want trivial fetch quests and the like.
Now before the pitchforks and torches come out, think about it. If I get resurrected into a new world, no one knows diddly-squat about me. Most folks will probably be wary of me since I'd most likely be a stranger. If I'm born into the world, I'm just a local. Nothing fancy, nothing spectacular.
I have to earn a reputation. I have to earn trust. Folks aren't going to throw epic quests at me because I'm some adventurer. I'm not going to (typically) go on some grand quest unless there is a reason. You have to build a reputation by building trust and this is where you have your menial labor. Get your hands dirty and kill 65,340,285 boars before you earn the right, the prestige, the confidence to embark on a grand adventure.
-meaningful factions
-crafting/gathering/collecting
Meaningful factions, alignment, religion, and even class choices are huge to me. One the first hooks EQ1 got into me was how even in their own home cities, rogues/necros/SKs were hanging out in the sewers, the back alleys, or other out of the way locations because well, those are generally distasteful professions to even their own kind, religion, etc. That was awesome. Iksar getting innate regen, but being hated everywhere in the world outside Cabilis....that was cool. The dorf/giant/dragon faction grinds that actually mattered in Velious. Only thing that bummed me out in EQ1 through Velious was not being able to gain enough Hate of Fear faction to go to either plane, even if just a visitors area, and do quests, buy/sell, etc.
In a meaningful faction system, all things should be possible. It creates pockets in the grey and black markets for enterprising players to make a profit. But more importantly, it creates emergent RP mini-games/quests based on individual playstyles, otherwise known as connecting people to their character much more deeply.
On crafting/collecting/gathering, the only thing that most games screw up there is limiting max crafted gear to 2-3 tiers lower than max dropped raid gear. I am not saying that any casual button clicker should be able to mass produce epic weapons which invites players to not experience the toughest content, but add crafting material drops that are NO DROP/Bind on Pickup that are unique, rare, etc and are components of raid worthy gear. The Coldain prayer shawl and ring are a great example. The 10th ring and 8th shawl (earliest end point I think) were involved lengthy crafting quests, and eventually required multi-group mini-raids. Ice silk armors would have been like that, had the ice silks been NO DROP, because farming ice burrowers in the Western Wastes was not for the faint of heart.
The Anarchy Online pocket boss system is another implementation of crafting as group/raid content on demand. Want those sweet symbiant implants, well, then farm pocket boss patterns, have two different tradeskiller classes build your PB crystal, and then get a serious group together to spawn and defeat the pocket boss. Best implants in the game, and thatw as the only way to get them. The tiered profession armors were similar, albeit ugodly difficult. Lots of material gathering and then swapping in tradeskill talents to be able to make your class specific armor, and at the time, that was the best armor you could have, if you had the friends and moxy to go get the mats. Shadowlands catacombs hunting is seriously the most overpowered content for the level you need it maybe in any MMO ever, so AO would let you craft the best stuff, but man oh man did you have to earn it.
Another thing crafting should have is rare/hard to make stuff counting for much more skill per combine. If I make 100 widgets, fine, give me my 5 points in smithing, but if I make the uber sword of l33tn3ss, give me 25 points all at once. Wow kinda does this, but for the most part, tradeskill leveling in most MMOs is a single point at a time grindfest, and it makes no logical sense.
Yvyll said:
I want trivial fetch quests and the like.
Now before the pitchforks and torches come out, think about it. If I get resurrected into a new world, no one knows diddly-squat about me. Most folks will probably be wary of me since I'd most likely be a stranger. If I'm born into the world, I'm just a local. Nothing fancy, nothing spectacular.
I have to earn a reputation. I have to earn trust. Folks aren't going to throw epic quests at me because I'm some adventurer. I'm not going to (typically) go on some grand quest unless there is a reason. You have to build a reputation by building trust and this is where you have your menial labor. Get your hands dirty and kill 65,340,285 boars before you earn the right, the prestige, the confidence to embark on a grand adventure.
In the grand scheme, I agree. At the same time, if I kill 57 gazillion rats for the local town, I think that reputation should precede me somewhat elsewhere, both negatively and positively. In towns where the people I impressed with my slaying of rats and boars have pals, I should start off with "oh yeah, you're that badass exterminator, here's free accolades" faction, but in towns opposed to my pals I did all the rat killing for, I should start off WORSE as well.
Faction should matter. And it should be constantly surprising you with finding out who the friends of the enemies of your friends and enemies are as you go along. All those rats ears you collected at level 2? yeah well, 7 towns over, you just took a bite out the local pesticide conglomerate's market share, and what do you know, the head of the pesticide cabal is also the next guy in your quest chain. You got some 'splainin' to do....
If you wrap tedious quests in the whole political greasing the skids, buying influence, paying bribes to people who hate you kinda thing....well then it makes a ton of sense.
^^^ What Amsai said above. Complex class/combat mechanics instead of button mashing classes. Give me tons of challenge but give me all the tools I need to deal with those challenges instead of just a few boring abilities I can button mash with but the game being so easy that it doesn't matter.
Zarriya said:
Kilsin said:
Yeah, I like victory points in named, mini named and raid mobs with the odd random higher ranking mob in a pack but on all mobs? hmm, may get a bit frustrating after a while.
Nice features list, Zarriya! It's like you stole it right from my word document! lol ;)Not every mob (sorry I was not clear). Although, In Tera for even regular mobs it was helpful to understand the mob type for battle strategies. Your knowledge about these attacks was rewarded, its wasn't that taxing, even enjoyable.
Where is your word doc? I would like to see what you enjoy.
I did like Tera, it was a fresh new style of combat that grew on me but the leveling just got grindy, which is weird cause I don't usually mind a grind.
The doc is safely in the hands of the team so I cannot share it unfortunately, otherwise I would for sure! :)
Yvyll said:
Zarriya said: -mini games that are relevantLike.....diplo?
Diplo was so awesome in VG, it was more than a mini-game in my opinion, it was a third sphere that allowed you to completely ignore Adventuring and Crafting and just Diplo if you wanted too, although it needed more love it was something I enjoyed a lot (I had around 8 max level Diplo toons in VG).
Amsai said:
Pretty much agree with everything but quests. I would actually like plenty of quests (no markers though). However not quest hubs/grinds. In fact i dont believe any quest should give xp. And few should give physical rewards. Most should be done for challenge/lore/gated content/maybe faction. I mean i dont want thoudands of quests and lord knows I dont want trivial fetch quests and what not. But a good solid amount of well written and epic quests should be a thing that is done.
This has been heavily debated and there is such a split down the middle, we may have to gather feedback as we go. Joppa has already stated that he wants fewer quests but more detail and quality int hose quests so they actually mean something and are worthwhile and both he and Brad have said fewer quests than VG but more than EQ so a kind of middle ground if you like.
Yvyll said:
I want trivial fetch quests and the like.
Now before the pitchforks and torches come out, think about it. If I get resurrected into a new world, no one knows diddly-squat about me. Most folks will probably be wary of me since I'd most likely be a stranger. If I'm born into the world, I'm just a local. Nothing fancy, nothing spectacular.
I have to earn a reputation. I have to earn trust. Folks aren't going to throw epic quests at me because I'm some adventurer. I'm not going to (typically) go on some grand quest unless there is a reason. You have to build a reputation by building trust and this is where you have your menial labor. Get your hands dirty and kill 65,340,285 boars before you earn the right, the prestige, the confidence to embark on a grand adventure.
I am with you here Yvyll, I don't mind a fetch quest at all as long as it is put into perspective and not just blind running, grabbing, returning, if there is a good reason for why I am doing it, then I can run around helping NPCs all day without a problem. I also agree with your point on reputation and earning it plus what ever happen to good old fashion help, just being kind and helping a farmer herd his cows or protecting them from wolves and showing the wolf fur or hides as proof? We do thing like this in real life so it doesn;t bother me at all :)
Venjenz said:
-meaningful factions-crafting/gathering/collecting
Meaningful factions, alignment, religion, and even class choices are huge to me. One the first hooks EQ1 got into me was how even in their own home cities, rogues/necros/SKs were hanging out in the sewers, the back alleys, or other out of the way locations because well, those are generally distasteful professions to even their own kind, religion, etc. That was awesome. Iksar getting innate regen, but being hated everywhere in the world outside Cabilis....that was cool. The dorf/giant/dragon faction grinds that actually mattered in Velious. Only thing that bummed me out in EQ1 through Velious was not being able to gain enough Hate of Fear faction to go to either plane, even if just a visitors area, and do quests, buy/sell, etc.
In a meaningful faction system, all things should be possible. It creates pockets in the grey and black markets for enterprising players to make a profit. But more importantly, it creates emergent RP mini-games/quests based on individual playstyles, otherwise known as connecting people to their character much more deeply.
On crafting/collecting/gathering, the only thing that most games screw up there is limiting max crafted gear to 2-3 tiers lower than max dropped raid gear. I am not saying that any casual button clicker should be able to mass produce epic weapons which invites players to not experience the toughest content, but add crafting material drops that are NO DROP/Bind on Pickup that are unique, rare, etc and are components of raid worthy gear. The Coldain prayer shawl and ring are a great example. The 10th ring and 8th shawl (earliest end point I think) were involved lengthy crafting quests, and eventually required multi-group mini-raids. Ice silk armors would have been like that, had the ice silks been NO DROP, because farming ice burrowers in the Western Wastes was not for the faint of heart.
The Anarchy Online pocket boss system is another implementation of crafting as group/raid content on demand. Want those sweet symbiant implants, well, then farm pocket boss patterns, have two different tradeskiller classes build your PB crystal, and then get a serious group together to spawn and defeat the pocket boss. Best implants in the game, and thatw as the only way to get them. The tiered profession armors were similar, albeit ugodly difficult. Lots of material gathering and then swapping in tradeskill talents to be able to make your class specific armor, and at the time, that was the best armor you could have, if you had the friends and moxy to go get the mats. Shadowlands catacombs hunting is seriously the most overpowered content for the level you need it maybe in any MMO ever, so AO would let you craft the best stuff, but man oh man did you have to earn it.
Another thing crafting should have is rare/hard to make stuff counting for much more skill per combine. If I make 100 widgets, fine, give me my 5 points in smithing, but if I make the uber sword of l33tn3ss, give me 25 points all at once. Wow kinda does this, but for the most part, tradeskill leveling in most MMOs is a single point at a time grindfest, and it makes no logical sense.
I am big on meaningful as well, for pretty much everything I do in a game, if it can be made reasonable and meaningful then I have no problem doing whatever it is.
I also agree that Crafting needs to be done right and be in depth and challenging, not just a mind numbing one or two button mash to suddenly pop out an awesome item.
Amsai said:
For me it would have to be complex class mechanics (aka technical or tactical classes in some games). Now im all in favor of there being "auto-pilot" pilot classes as well. I know some people dont want a lot of responsibility and or want to chat/rp more. So it doesnt need to be every class. And at the same time because of the role you cant make some classes simple (utility and healer classes mostly). Anyway, Id just like som e DPS and especially tanks to get at least one class with complex mechanics. Like FFXIs ninj a tank. Not asking for ninja tank here but Paladin in XI was frankly boring. Too little going on for my taste. Sometimes just having a more in teresting take on a role can be good too. Like XI Dancer a frontline melee healer. Thats just damn interesting. And still maintains the trinity but with new challenges. But above all keep me working for it. Like a bard.
Yeah absolutely, I love being able to tweak my classes a ton of different ways, it helps us to stand out from others while still being able to do the same role but it is nice to have the options of more complicated mechanics to just get the edge over someone else of the same class who doesn;t put in the extra effort to learn how their class works while not being so complicated that it takes a degree to play that class and it is still fun for everyone. ;)
Jason said:
^^^ What Amsai said above. Complex class/combat mechanics instead of button mashing classes. Give me tons of challenge but give me all the tools I need to deal with those challenges instead of just a few boring abilities I can button mash with but the game being so easy that it doesn't matter.
Yeah, I agree and that is why I am also an advocate for more abilities on my hotbar and stacking 5 hotbars if I want! lol
I want that freedom to setup my character and play it how I want with every one of his/her abilities available to me to choose from.
Yvyll said:
I want trivial fetch quests and the like.
Now before the pitchforks and torches come out, think about it. If I get resurrected into a new world, no one knows diddly-squat about me. Most folks will probably be wary of me since I'd most likely be a stranger. If I'm born into the world, I'm just a local. Nothing fancy, nothing spectacular.
I have to earn a reputation. I have to earn trust. Folks aren't going to throw epic quests at me because I'm some adventurer. I'm not going to (typically) go on some grand quest unless there is a reason. You have to build a reputation by building trust and this is where you have your menial labor. Get your hands dirty and kill 65,340,285 boars before you earn the right, the prestige, the confidence to embark on a grand adventure.
While I agree that trust (or faction) must be earned for the more epic quests to become available, there is never an appropriate time for fluff quests. Not anymore. If for no other reason than to differentiate from modern themeparks, I hope I never again see another kill X mobs or deliver message to X npc in the next outpost. I don't need my hand held. I won't be surprised if we still see it here and there, especially at lower levels while players are getting their bearings, but after that I'd expect more.
Quests should tell stories and give depth to the world. If there isn't a real story or challenge offered, in my opinion, they have no business creating a quest. Its just lazy design, and a waste of developer time and resources. That said, I don't mind those grindy types of quests where you bring back the heads (or tails) of some vermin or enemy to gain gradual reputation over the course of days/weeks/months. I just don't want to be led around by said quests, nor do I want to know exactly how many I need to return to gain the reputation needed to access further quests.
Less hand-holding, more freedom.
Yvyll said:
I want trivial fetch quests and the like.
Now before the pitchforks and torches come out, think about it. If I get resurrected into a new world, no one knows diddly-squat about me. Most folks will probably be wary of me since I'd most likely be a stranger. If I'm born into the world, I'm just a local. Nothing fancy, nothing spectacular.
I have to earn a reputation. I have to earn trust. Folks aren't going to throw epic quests at me because I'm some adventurer. I'm not going to (typically) go on some grand quest unless there is a reason. You have to build a reputation by building trust and this is where you have your menial labor. Get your hands dirty and kill 65,340,285 boars before you earn the right, the prestige, the confidence to embark on a grand adventure.
This is the kinda stuff that will make me not like Pantheon, trivial fetch/kill 5 mobs/take this note to jack quests are the bane of newer MMO's. I much prefer the EQ faction gaining system, where if Freeport doesn't like orcs, they put out a bounty on their head where each centurion belt I bring back proving I killed one yields me faction and money, I don't think these quests should EVER give exp, because the exp was gained from killing the mob in the first place.
EQ also did not give out epic quests willy nilly, in most cases, where it was relevant, you had to do some factioning work to even speak with the NPC's involved in forging your Epic. I do not mind turning in items for faction, I do however mind doing something like tumpy tonic or garbage like that for faction. It's not realistic to get faction for doing some trivial fetch quest for a single individual of the faction, rather it is more realistic if there are things that can be done for the faction as a whole that make life easier and more pleasant for all individuals of the faction.
Rallyd said:
.....This is the kinda stuff that will make me not like Pantheon, trivial fetch/kill 5 mobs/take this note to jack quests are the bane of newer MMO's. I much prefer the EQ faction gaining system, where if Freeport doesn't like orcs, they put out a bounty on their head where each centurion belt I bring back proving I killed one yields me faction and money, I don't think these quests should EVER give exp, because the exp was gained from killing the mob in the first place.......
I understand what you are saying, but I wanted to remind you that the centurion belts gave a really good chunk of xp at level, a piece of gear as well.
Zarriya said:
Rallyd said:
.....This is the kinda stuff that will make me not like Pantheon, trivial fetch/kill 5 mobs/take this note to jack quests are the bane of newer MMO's. I much prefer the EQ faction gaining system, where if Freeport doesn't like orcs, they put out a bounty on their head where each centurion belt I bring back proving I killed one yields me faction and money, I don't think these quests should EVER give exp, because the exp was gained from killing the mob in the first place.......
I understand what you are saying, but I wanted to remind you that the centurion belts gave a really good chunk of xp at level, a piece of gear as well.
Thats true, but for a very brief time. That is kinda the exception to the rule so to speak, as those types of quests were few and far between after the early levels.
I think the main fear many of us have is that those type of quests will guide players around the world instead of promoting true exploration and discovery.
We have stated several times now that we will have fewer quests (read - less than VG) but make them more in depth and of a better quality.
This is just friendly discussion on what mechanics and features you like, just because someone likes fetch quests, doesn't mean that we will now drag you around from level to level with them in game, we need to understand the difference between someones opinion/preference and an official statement. We have certainly not given anyone any reason to fear us putting these in-game!
All quests will be optional and if fetch quests aren't your thing and one of them makes it into Pantheon, then don't worry, just simply keep walking past it, it won't ruin your gameplay to miss it or block your characters progression and I am sure the NPC won't be too offended. ;)
Always remember that until something is officially announced by us, it is not part of our game!