Reht said:
Sevens said:
The sad truth is that the automaters are NOT cheating
Daybreak games have given the green light to use 3rd party programs to bot
Sad state of affairs
This is incorrect. What they did was re-affirm that the use of 3rd party programs such as isboxer, keyclone, etc. that broadcast key strokes to other minimized clients is acceptable. Fully automated botting via programs like MacroQuest is not, nor ever has been allowed - you actually have to be at your PC actually playing the characters. This is nothing new, it has been like that for years, they didn't just give it the green light.
I asked in the forums only about a year or two ago if ANY program which allowed better control of windows, other than alt-tabbing, was okay as long as it did not control the characters automatically. I clarified I was speaking about 2 accounts only, and was having some issue with my OS and alt-tabbing back and forth. They (SOE then) would not give a definitive answer on the use of ANY 3rd party software. Not only did the admins not tell me anything, other forum posters explained/complained that some people were banned and others not.
BloodbeardBattlecaster said:
Reht said:
Sevens said:
The sad truth is that the automaters are NOT cheating
Daybreak games have given the green light to use 3rd party programs to bot
Sad state of affairs
This is incorrect. What they did was re-affirm that the use of 3rd party programs such as isboxer, keyclone, etc. that broadcast key strokes to other minimized clients is acceptable. Fully automated botting via programs like MacroQuest is not, nor ever has been allowed - you actually have to be at your PC actually playing the characters. This is nothing new, it has been like that for years, they didn't just give it the green light.
I asked in the forums only about a year or two ago if ANY program which allowed better control of windows, other than alt-tabbing, was okay as long as it did not control the characters automatically. I clarified I was speaking about 2 accounts only, and was having some issue with my OS and alt-tabbing back and forth. They (SOE then) would not give a definitive answer on the use of ANY 3rd party software. Not only did the admins not tell me anything, other forum posters explained/complained that some people were banned and others not.
Piestro, the former community manager posted that the use of isboxer, in and of itself, was not against the rules as long as someone was actually playing the account about 3 or 4 years ago. Feel free to dig through the site if you want to find, i lost the link to it, but it was the stance they took back then which is still in line with what they said a few weeks ago.
Raidan said: I'm not trying to argue over boxing though, and I understand why you (and I and others) have done it legitimately; however, I'd rather work on a solution to assist in finding groups at off hours/times rather than again surrender to the fact that the development team understands that finding groups will be difficult so boxing characters is inevitable. I'd argue that the experience of EQ1 that is attempting to be replicated won't occur with that mindset. I think this topic would be a good developer led discussion to foster community interaction and ideas.
I agree I would prefer not to box at all but the only ideas I can think of are below.
1. Create 3 servers for each type (PVP/PVE/RP) US/Europe/Oceanic server. Positive - hopefully moves players in same time zone onto the same servers. Negative - population becomes spread out across possibly to many servers.
2. I know a lot of players want a group oriented game more like EQ1. I enjoyed Vanguard that allowed some solo'ing although limited it still allowed me to do some things by myself. If the game is to heavily grouped oriented people will resort to playing/paying for a second account. I don't want the game to go too easily like GW2/AA/Rift where I can reach max level without ever grouping. I read another post asking what % people would enjoy group/solo/raid. I think this is very important topic that the developers will have to keep an eye on while creating zones.
3. The game should have a very solid LFG window. I've even had a crazy idea before where you create a section on the games website where you fill out a form kinda like online dating but for people LFG/looking for friends who play they way they enjoy to play MMOs and who actually play around the same time they do.
4. Fellowships, Mentoring, and a zone system like GW2. Are all examples of systems that can be placed inside an MMO to help with finding groups.
5. I know people hate instant travel but how about things like COH, or the system in WoW/EQ2 that allows you to call a friend every hour or so not sure about time to your location. I mention this because for example on the progression server I've had people ask me to tank for them but they have literally been an hours run away so I have to decline a potential group because I didn't want to make the dangerous run across tens of zones just to possibly get to a group and have it disband.
I'll try to think of some more positive ways not to have to box.
My first feed back has been after 1 week. Today it is 3 months so another feed back is due. as Aradune requested.
I will use the same structuring like in my first post and add new issues when appropriate.
My enchanter is 50 now and despite a rather casual playing, I had time to level a necromancer to 50 too.
- Queues
They disappeared within approximately 2 weeks. The opening of a new progression server Lockjaw might have helped but I am sure that even without Lockjaw they would have disappeared. So wile this feature was short lived, it still was absolutely necessary to avoid a too early attrition of the player basis.
- Instancing
Daybreak maintained the dynamical instancing system and even developped it farther by expanding it to raiding areas.
A raiding area (like SolB) may now have several instances BUT only the original instance has the boss (Nagafen). This compromise allows to players to hunt the dungeon without overcrowded camps and at the same time keep the "DPS race" for the raid targets.
I think that this system is quite a success. The low levels zones are now in a "normal" state (e.g only 1 instance) while the high level zones (Guk, OOT, Hole) accomodate the extreme concentration of players at max level and allow almost everybody to find a hunting area.
I cannot think of a negative side of dynamical instancing and certainly didn't experience any.
- Duration of the classic era
There has been a vote on Lockjaw and Ragefire. Lockjaw voted for 6 months while Ragefire voted 3 months.
So Ragefire is voting right now whether Kunark should unlock or not. I have not the results but think that the yes for Kunark will win with a large margin.
The evolution of the population shows that the phenomenon of accumulation of players at level cap and the speed with which it happens is by far the most important factor of creation of a sustainable player basis during the critical phase of the first few months.
I estimate that the population now, 3 months after the start, is around 1 000 characters (considering the amount of boxers, the number of players is much less than that) compared to 4 000 - 5 000 players during the first weeks.
This means that the playing population lost around 75 % in only 3 months.
This estimation is validated by considering my Guild with a roster of 750 members out of which around 200 have played at least once during the last month. Here too the attrition is around 75 %.
Of course that doesn't mean that 75% of the players unsubscribed - there is no way to estimate this number. But it clearly means that 3 months were too long to keep the players' interest to log in the game.
After 3 months 90% of the players+ have levelled 1 or several characters to level cap and they didn't find anything interesting to do.
I expect that the Kunark release will bring a portion of those who didn't unsubscribe back in the game but I am sure that this number will stay very far below the initial numbers.
In parallel the opening of Lockjaw will almost certainly appear like a very bad move because if a portion of players may accept tu pay a sub for 1 or 2 months while not playing (case of Ragefire), the majority will not accept to pay a sub while not playing during 5 months (case of Lockjaw).
So the non playing customers on Lockjaw will very likely unsubscribe because they won't pay a monthly fee during months for only waiting Kunark release.
Lockjaw will transform in a ghost town with only a few large raiding guilds within less than 1 year.
- Predatory guild and boxing
Daybreak dealt with the predatory Guild by imposing a raid rotation. This was certainly the only possible move unless one would want to maintain a highly toxic environment which would chase most of the players away.
A predatory guild's behaviour is like a parasite which eats and destroys all of its environment (players and weaker guilds alike) and then dies because nothing is left to be eaten.
The rotation works and the server became a better world.
This illustrates the fact that the existence of a PnP Policy which is ENFORCED by the developper (even if it means banning and/or disbanding whole guilds) is absolutely Paramount to maintain a sustainable player basis.
My only regret is that Daybreak didn't use the ingame poll system to ask the players' opinion about this decision.
This is a quite general issue - the most important decisons taken by the developper are of the kind "Will the majority be happy if I decide A or if I decide B ?"
They are obviously most important because they will directly impact the business - e.g the number and the average duration of subscriptions.
Yet, surprisingly, the companies always take this kind of decisions like if they were playing a russian roulette - based on convictions or other more or less subjective estimations about what the majority of players thinks and expects.
I can't understand why they take such risks because they could have an objective and comprehensive answer by simply asking the player basis via an ingame poll which appears during log in and forces the player to answer.
The majority of this thread has been dedicated to boxing which doesn't deserve too much focus because it is a rather secondary issue.
Yes the majority of players is boxing now . It was not the majority during the first weeks when the population was high.
A minority of boxers (i'd say 10%) is boxing 6 or more characters. A quasi totality of this category is using third party programs (e.g botting).
Daybreak solved the biggest problem which was that botted and boxed groups were squatting good camps 24/24 by implementing the dynamical instancing.
Daybreak didn't solve yet the problem of 6 + botted groups whose toxicity for immersion, PnP, grouping and content access is obvious.
The right solution would be to simply ban them all for use of forbidden 3rd party softwares. I estimate the number of such botted groups at around 50 at any given moment. They can be identified at first sight.
So it would take not more than an investment of 3-4 hours of a GM per day during 1 or 2 weeks to totally eradicate this unwanted category of "players".
Easy and cheap.
- Krono
This is a new issue that I didn't mention in my first feedback but it allowed me some very interesting insights.
A Krono is an item that can be bought at EQ shop for 17$ and traded/sold for in game platinum.
This item has only one purpose - to be destroyed. When it is destroyed it buys you 1 month of game time. So it is just an expensive alternative to a subscription which costs 15$ .
I suppose that the initial intent was to eliminate RMT because a Krono trade is nothing else than a legal and official RMT.
It certainly succeded because there is no RMT going on on the server. No spam, no offers. If somebody wants platinum, he buys a Krono and sells it. Simple.
The negative impact of Kronos is that it outright encourages boxing/botting.
Indeed maintaining a 6 box/bot group would cost 90 $ in subscription what practically nobody could afford.
However when this group is botted to farm platinum (or rare items), it allows to buy in the best case 6 Kronos which leads to the result that the owner of 6 accounts doesn't pay a single $ for his accounts.
Now as for every Krono traded there has to be somebody who BUYS the Krono for 17 $, this is finally a loosing game in the long term for the company.
Indeed the buyers of Kronos for 17$ are by definition only non boxing/non botting players who cannot or would not spend hours farming platinum or items.
But as the number and the proportion of these players (who are the real target population of an MMO) is fast decreasing, ironically partly because of the selfsame box/bot groups they contribute to fund, the amount of Kronos sold for $ is decreasing too.
This in turn, mechanically, decreases the number of boxed/botted accounts because there is not enough Kronos to fund them.
So at some point in the future, almost no Kronos are bought so none are traded and all that was achieved was that the overall account attrition has been accelerated.
In summary the Kronos have a positive impact on the company's profits during the first weeks/months when there are enough single account players who buy Kronos to get platinum.
But at the same time it accelerates the account attrition so that the average life duration of the game is shorter than it would be if there were no Kronos.
Another interesting aspect of Kronos was for me that it is a perfect indicator of game inflation.
As I have shown above, the Krono market in game is a seller market. Buyers don't matter because only those who need platinum and are ready to pay 17 $ will supply the market with Kronos.
Because of that, there is permanently less supply than demand.
In such a market the prices rise. Broadly considered (at least during the initial months) the prices rise approximately in proportion with the rise of the platinum monetary mass.
And the latter is called inflation.
During the first week a Krono was traded for 600 PP. Today, 3 months later, it is traded for 8 500 PP.
This represents a 14 fold increase of the monetary mass in only 3 months !
Intereresting is that this evolution is not linear (as one would naively expect) but strongly exponential (the price doubles approximately every 3 weeks).
This is an indirect proof of 2 phenomenons I mentionned above.
First the players and especially the farming box/bot groups accumulate fast at the cap level where the platinum yield is maximum.
Second the attrition of simple account players is much faster than the attrition of boxed/botted accounts what farther widens the supply-demand gap.
The conclusion I'd draw would be that the introduction of tools like Krono is detrimental to keeping a large single account player basis.
So it is certainly detrimental to the social aspect of the game because the natural selection favors boxed/botted accounts.
BloodbeardBattlecaster said:
I enjoyed the read and agree with some of your conclusions, but I am wondering how you came up with the figures(percentages) of players/boxers, and such?
I'm not doubting you, but only wondering.
Estimates based on :
a) Observation of the guild roster. The guild tab gives very interesting information about who boxes , who has alts and how many, when somebody logged in last etc. Now with 750 members in the roster the sample is large enough to have a statistically significant estimate for the whole population.
b) Observations done using the /who command and visiting popular zones. These are less robust and not so significant but may more or less qualitatively confirm the estimates from a)