Kilsin said:
BloodbeardBattlecaster said:
As I've already mentioned, it's not the boxing, it's the automation of boxing. The farming, RTM, camp stealing, etc... bots are automated. Alt-tabbing boxed groups are not as much a threat to groups made of all different players. I have to wonder though, how many full group boxers would there be if there was no automation involved. I know a few would still do it, but it would be much less than now.
Heck, I have a hard time alt-tabbing two accounts lol
Any automation in boxing is cheating/botting which is entirely different mate.
Most boxers is use a program that mimics keystrokes, so if I click on a particular spot on my hotbar, if my other characters are set up correctly it will hit the same spot on their hotbars and from there I can create macros in those spaces but it can become quite difficult to manage and most of us just use the extra accounts for spot heals and auto attacks with the odd debuff/dps ability with a few basic abilities.
I use multiple monitors and have an account open in each screen so moving between them with your mouse is quite easy once you get used to it, although it can get quite hairy in tight situations if you're not careful but as it gets harder that is when I would want to join a group and socialise, boxing is just a way to continue playing when no one is available to group/quest with.
There is a significant difference between manual boxing and automated cheat programs though, please don't generalise and confuse the two as one is legitimate and provides extra revenue to the company while allowing paying players to remain logged in and enjoying their game and the other is completely illegal and considered cheating that ruins games and communities for many people, including us boxers.
Just to clarify, human controlled boxing is perfectly fine as long as you are clicking the buttons, moving the mouse etc., anything AI or program controlled is cheating and not fine.
I agree on all fronts, I would however note that one tends to lead to the other, if the game is hard enough that you have trouble manually boxing characters, which I am totally ok with.. players WILL resort to macros/bots, and the line between cheating and just using macros on your keyboard or mouse software gets really hairy.
Once again though, I haven't seen any company yet figure this out, so I would rather you guys not even worry about this, much bigger things at stake than this.
Rallyd said:
Kilsin said:
BloodbeardBattlecaster said:
As I've already mentioned, it's not the boxing, it's the automation of boxing. The farming, RTM, camp stealing, etc... bots are automated. Alt-tabbing boxed groups are not as much a threat to groups made of all different players. I have to wonder though, how many full group boxers would there be if there was no automation involved. I know a few would still do it, but it would be much less than now.
Heck, I have a hard time alt-tabbing two accounts lol
Any automation in boxing is cheating/botting which is entirely different mate.
Most boxers is use a program that mimics keystrokes, so if I click on a particular spot on my hotbar, if my other characters are set up correctly it will hit the same spot on their hotbars and from there I can create macros in those spaces but it can become quite difficult to manage and most of us just use the extra accounts for spot heals and auto attacks with the odd debuff/dps ability with a few basic abilities.
I use multiple monitors and have an account open in each screen so moving between them with your mouse is quite easy once you get used to it, although it can get quite hairy in tight situations if you're not careful but as it gets harder that is when I would want to join a group and socialise, boxing is just a way to continue playing when no one is available to group/quest with.
There is a significant difference between manual boxing and automated cheat programs though, please don't generalise and confuse the two as one is legitimate and provides extra revenue to the company while allowing paying players to remain logged in and enjoying their game and the other is completely illegal and considered cheating that ruins games and communities for many people, including us boxers.
Just to clarify, human controlled boxing is perfectly fine as long as you are clicking the buttons, moving the mouse etc., anything AI or program controlled is cheating and not fine.
I agree on all fronts, I would however note that one tends to lead to the other, if the game is hard enough that you have trouble manually boxing characters, which I am totally ok with.. players WILL resort to macros/bots, and the line between cheating and just using macros on your keyboard or mouse software gets really hairy.
Once again though, I haven't seen any company yet figure this out, so I would rather you guys not even worry about this, much bigger things at stake than this.
Again, that is a massive generalisation my friend, that is like saying anyone who J walks will eventually end up in jail for hard crimes, one does not lead to the other in the majority of instances.
I am starting to see a trend that is concerning, many of you are showing how little you know about boxing by making these accusations and claims. Boxing is merely a way to continue playing when you would otherwise just simply log out in frustration due to not being able to find a group, get help with a quest or area, etc. Boxing is not efficient or more fun than a group, I and many others would drop our boxed characters and join a real group in a heartbeat. It's just a more complicated way to continue playing.
Those people you see running around with 25+ accounts that don't talk or interact with other players are illegal bots controlled by cheaters/gold farmers using unauthorised third party programs for profit, they can be fully automatic and in many cases, there is no one even sitting there controlling them, they are not your everyday player like me who wants to play the game that they love but can't because there are no players interested in helping, grouping, etc. They are a minority, but the damage they inflict makes them appear much larger than they are because they ruin economy's.
Anyone who thinks they are one in the same or that one leads to the other is horribly misled. I would encourage those people to research legitimate boxing more or even try it out for yourself, it's not the big bad wolf that some people make it out to be, it's just misunderstood by people who have never done it and automatically link it to gold farmers and cheaters, which is just ignorance.
Wanting a couple of heals to help me finish the last part of a quest or to grind out a few kills while I am unable to find a group is not going to make me some kind of evil gold farmer that is out to make as much profit as I can and ruin an entire game, it just means I can't find anyone to help and I want to log in an extra character to heal myself so I can continue playing the game I love in the limited time I have to play, I don't want to spend that time staring at the grass spamming chat annoying others and I most certainly don't want a program playing the game for me, where is the fun in that!
But let's bring this back on topic and keep it to discussion about Ragefire server, I don't want to derail Bloodbeards thread anymore than we already have :)
I would venture to say Kilsin that you are a bit naive if you think that everyone is like you and boxes just because they can't find a group. There are a ton of people out there who see other people doing things like this, think it gives them an unfair advantage, and resort to doing it themselves to try to compete. And this isn't just guessing, I have friends who even do these things.
And I never said they are one in the same, I just said that one tends to lead to the other. J-Walking turning into murder is a huge stretch, and not even close to relevant as an analogy. Where as using a mouse or keyboard macro to automate a keystroke is the start, and then the players find out through that, that they can in fact automate much of the repetitive tasks that they do in games.
This is not an attack on boxing, we won't ever restrict players from playing multiple accounts until we do like S. Korea has done and make players tie their Social Security # to their gaming account to play.
Rallyd said:
I would venture to say Kilsin that you are a bit naive if you think that everyone is like you and boxes just because they can't find a group. There are a ton of people out there who see other people doing things like this, think it gives them an unfair advantage, and resort to doing it themselves to try to compete. And this isn't just guessing, I have friends who even do these things.
And I never said they are one in the same, I just said that one tends to lead to the other. J-Walking turning into murder is a huge stretch, and not even close to relevant as an analogy. Where as using a mouse or keyboard macro to automate a keystroke is the start, and then the players find out through that, that they can in fact automate much of the repetitive tasks that they do in games.
This is not an attack on boxing, we won't ever restrict players from playing multiple accounts until we do like S. Korea has done and make players tie their Social Security # to their gaming account to play.
Naive? So you are accusing me of being naive based on your and a couple of your friends experience without knowing my knowledge on the subject. Interesting...
I would love to see the evidence that you are basing your assumptions on to show that "a ton of people out there who see other people doing things like this, think it gives them an unfair advantage and resort to doing it themselves to try to compete." is factual and not just your opinion?
The J-walking example is perfectly fine to make, it's a ridiculous jump, just as ridiculous as assuming that the majority of people who create a second account, pay for a subscription and duel or multi-box on multiple monitors or alt tab, must then be too tempted to play normally and instead must uncontrollably seek out an illegal program, fork out there hard earned money to purchase said program and take the risk of having their accounts permanently banned, losing many hours/years of hard work, friends and memories to have something play the game they like, for them.
It may not be your intention to attack boxing, but you're generalising in an enormous way and making assumptions that the majority of us are cheating and using illegal programs, and just can't control ourselves, which is just plain wrong. You need to show evidence of this before accusing a large group of legitimate players and I don't mean linking some over exaggerated gaming news article or an obscure gold farming comparison, it needs to be substantial evidence if you are going to make that claim against us using citations and credible sources.
You're still assuming I'm even talking about boxing, none of what I'm talking about has anything to do with boxing. Boxing itself is an irrelevant topic in my mind because I don't see any problem with it unless it is automated, and we all agree on that. All I argue is that the automation will happen whether you try to stop it or not, and that players will use it to box multiple characters, while it will be the minority, it can still be game-breaking to immersion. (See Archeage, EQ Progression Servers, any game made in the last few years that is relevant enough to warrant injection programs, of which Runescape is not one.)
Rallyd said:
You're still assuming I'm even talking about boxing, none of what I'm talking about has anything to do with boxing. Boxing itself is an irrelevant topic in my mind because I don't see any problem with it unless it is automated, and we all agree on that. All I argue is that the automation will happen whether you try to stop it or not, and that players will use it to box multiple characters, while it will be the minority, it can still be game-breaking to immersion. (See Archeage, EQ Progression Servers, any game made in the last few years that is relevant enough to warrant injection programs, of which Runescape is not one.)
Sadly you are right, just like there will be people who camp a mob you need, train mobs onto you to be a pain etc. but my point in all of my posts was that it is a very small minority who use automated programs, yet you claimed it was much larger and a natural step for anyone boxing to take, which is just not true mate.
I am happy to drop it, just wanted to clear up any misconceptions though ;)
P.S. Runescape is still the biggest free to play mmo in the world and they had severe botting problems which, for the most part, went away with their new detection system that they have been running for well over a year or so now. So it is possible to stop them.
Kilsin said:
BloodbeardBattlecaster said:
As I've already mentioned, it's not the boxing, it's the automation of boxing. The farming, RTM, camp stealing, etc... bots are automated. Alt-tabbing boxed groups are not as much a threat to groups made of all different players. I have to wonder though, how many full group boxers would there be if there was no automation involved. I know a few would still do it, but it would be much less than now.
Heck, I have a hard time alt-tabbing two accounts lol
Any automation in boxing is cheating/botting which is entirely different mate.
Most boxers is use a program that mimics keystrokes, so if I click on a particular spot on my hotbar, if my other characters are set up correctly it will hit the same spot on their hotbars and from there I can create macros in those spaces but it can become quite difficult to manage and most of us just use the extra accounts for spot heals and auto attacks with the odd debuff/dps ability with a few basic abilities.
I use multiple monitors and have an account open in each screen so moving between them with your mouse is quite easy once you get used to it, although it can get quite hairy in tight situations if you're not careful but as it gets harder that is when I would want to join a group and socialise, boxing is just a way to continue playing when no one is available to group/quest with.
There is a significant difference between manual boxing and automated cheat programs though, please don't generalise and confuse the two as one is legitimate and provides extra revenue to the company while allowing paying players to remain logged in and enjoying their game and the other is completely illegal and considered cheating that ruins games and communities for many people, including us boxers.
Just to clarify, human controlled boxing is perfectly fine as long as you are clicking the buttons, moving the mouse etc., anything AI or program controlled is cheating and not fine.
I realize the difference between cheating and not cheating. It's why I use the example of alt-tabbing.
Still, bottom line, as Brad as said, is that boxing can be detrimental to group play. Is that enough reason to enforce against it? Probably not. Can it be stopped for the most part (boxing of any kind)? Absolutely.
BloodbeardBattlecaster said:
Kilsin said:
BloodbeardBattlecaster said:
As I've already mentioned, it's not the boxing, it's the automation of boxing. The farming, RTM, camp stealing, etc... bots are automated. Alt-tabbing boxed groups are not as much a threat to groups made of all different players. I have to wonder though, how many full group boxers would there be if there was no automation involved. I know a few would still do it, but it would be much less than now.
Heck, I have a hard time alt-tabbing two accounts lol
Any automation in boxing is cheating/botting which is entirely different mate.
Most boxers is use a program that mimics keystrokes, so if I click on a particular spot on my hotbar, if my other characters are set up correctly it will hit the same spot on their hotbars and from there I can create macros in those spaces but it can become quite difficult to manage and most of us just use the extra accounts for spot heals and auto attacks with the odd debuff/dps ability with a few basic abilities.
I use multiple monitors and have an account open in each screen so moving between them with your mouse is quite easy once you get used to it, although it can get quite hairy in tight situations if you're not careful but as it gets harder that is when I would want to join a group and socialise, boxing is just a way to continue playing when no one is available to group/quest with.
There is a significant difference between manual boxing and automated cheat programs though, please don't generalise and confuse the two as one is legitimate and provides extra revenue to the company while allowing paying players to remain logged in and enjoying their game and the other is completely illegal and considered cheating that ruins games and communities for many people, including us boxers.
Just to clarify, human controlled boxing is perfectly fine as long as you are clicking the buttons, moving the mouse etc., anything AI or program controlled is cheating and not fine.
I realize the difference between cheating and not cheating. It's why I use the example of alt-tabbing.
Still, bottom line, as Brad as said, is that boxing can be detrimental to group play. Is that enough reason to enforce against it? Probably not. Can it be stopped for the most part (boxing of any kind)? Absolutely.
It's the generalisation that I am concerned with, mate. A better example is boxing or botting, cheaters can alt-tab too, but the majority of genuine boxers do not use botting programs. There is a huge difference between the two types of players, they do not relate to each other at all, one plays the game and controls their characters, the other has an automated program that plays for them that is easy to pick by watching it for more than 5 seconds.
I also don't agree that boxing is detrimental to group play, that is another large misconception, a boxer is not going to be able to efficiently box a group of 4+ let alone box a whole group, it's clumsy and hard work to micro manage more than two characters effectively, and you will be able to tell straight away if they are cheating, it really isn't hard to pick but a full group will always be much faster and more efficient than a boxed group, period.
Perhaps you should log in to those 2 servers, and realize just how many people run 3-6 boxes with various 1click software that DBG allows, its not rare by any means.
I agree with rallyd, alt-tabbing/dual monitor setups or 2 comp boxing, is in itself not an issue, but it slams open the barn door for ISBoxer and other stuff, wether you want to admit/like it or not :)
Zlambit said:
Perhaps you should log in to those 2 servers, and realize just how many people run 3-6 boxes with various 1click software that DBG allows, its not rare by any means.
I agree with rallyd, alt-tabbing/dual monitor setups or 2 comp boxing, is in itself not an issue, but it slams open the barn door for ISBoxer and other stuff, wether you want to admit/like it or not :)
Ok, so let's say that it is rampant on those servers for argument sake (I don't play on them so I can't say either way), how does that affect you or anyone else playing? :)
If those players want to box and run a small group by themselves or with select family and/or friends then they are players that would of solo'd anyway and been unhappy socialising, they pay the same costs and subscriptions as us, they should be allowed to play it their way as long as it is within the games TOS and isn't breaking any rules or laws, shouldn't they? :)
Whether it's one player in a small group controlled by themselves or a small group of individual players, as long as they aren't breaking any rules they should be allowed to play and enjoy the game they pay, for in my opinion. No matter how many people control the group members people are still going to camp content, grind out levels and experience, run around doing quests etc. it makes no difference if it's one or multiple people controlling those characters but the multi boxer will always be at a distinct disadvantage and never be anywhere near as efficient as the other group ;)
As far as competition between players is concerned, it does matter. Someone boxing 6 characters doing their own group, sitting in the camp that you group wants, will create a lot of conflict. Some players will deem that unfair, and if they are automating the characters (all too common) then everyone would deem that unfair.
Competition is not a PVP only concept, there is currently competition on P99 blue server, and while many would like to do away with it, the people who understand the allure of EQ know that competition is a big part of the reason people keep playing beyond max level and several alts.
The only way I could imagine not caring about the guy 6 boxing is if every area is instanced, and he's basically playing his own single player game, and so am I.... or I basically have zero reason to talk to him or care about him because social interaction isn't necessary. Both of these things are taboo to Pantheon followers.
Rallyd said:
As far as competition between players is concerned, it does matter. Someone boxing 6 characters doing their own group, sitting in the camp that you group wants, will create a lot of conflict. Some players will deem that unfair, and if they are automating the characters (all too common) then everyone would deem that unfair.
Competition is not a PVP only concept, there is currently competition on P99 blue server, and while many would like to do away with it, the people who understand the allure of EQ know that competition is a big part of the reason people keep playing beyond max level and several alts.
The only way I could imagine not caring about the guy 6 boxing is if every area is instanced, and he's basically playing his own single player game, and so am I.... or I basically have zero reason to talk to him or care about him because social interaction isn't necessary. Both of these things are taboo to Pantheon followers.
I led one of the most respected hardcore raiding guilds in VG with Anasyn for years (Reverence), I understand PvE competition very well and you are right, it is there and all part of the community balance on PvE servers.
In the fairness of competition though the group of 6 would win hands down every time but in the interests of community spirit, if I came across someone multiboxing in an area, I would say hi and ask to join them, if I got no answer or a reply that I didn't want to hear then it would be my choice to either move on or try to beat them in the mob pull, again, healthy competition but only after attempting to communicate with them.
I would rather compete for mobs and area's in friendly PvE terms than suffer through an instanced world!
On that note, I am going to bow out and leave you ladies and gentleman to continue the discussion, just be respectful of each other and remember that no one opinion is better than another. I only jumped into this discussion because I saw mistruths and huge generalising claims made against something that I take part in and wanted to throw in my experience, suggestions and counterclaims in plus it's always nice to give another side to the very one sided story! ;)
But now it's back to work!
For myself, I am not calling anyone a cheater. I'm not differentiating in that manner, because cheating is dependent upon the game developers.
My personal opinion on the matter is that if a person is not having to choose another character (account) in a manual fashion - alt tabbing, clicking on another open window, clicking on another monitor altogether, and such, then that is the boxing which is detrimental to other players.
Realize something... I am not calling boxers 'bad people'. They pay. They play. That does not mean it is good for the game though.
I'm not even calling gold farmers 'bad people'. They are earning a living (maybe?). It's up to the developers to discipline or not. They are definitely detrimental to the game because they are going to sell fake in-game stuff for real money.
Kilsin said:
Ok, so let's say that it is rampant on those servers for argument sake (I don't play on them so I can't say either way), how does that affect you or anyone else playing? :)
If those players want to box and run a small group by themselves or with select family and/or friends then they are players that would of solo'd anyway and been unhappy socialising, they pay the same costs and subscriptions as us, they should be allowed to play it their way as long as it is within the games TOS and isn't breaking any rules or laws, shouldn't they? :)
Whether it's one player in a small group controlled by themselves or a small group of individual players, as long as they aren't breaking any rules they should be allowed to play and enjoy the game they pay, for in my opinion. No matter how many people control the group members people are still going to camp content, grind out levels and experience, run around doing quests etc. it makes no difference if it's one or multiple people controlling those characters but the multi boxer will always be at a distinct disadvantage and never be anywhere near as efficient as the other group ;)
I'd have to disagree with you here and side more with the non-boxers as well, and I have boxed in the past - especially on EQlive in its current state.
However, I did so out of necessity i.e. not enough time to group and/or there wasn't anyone left on at times to group with. One of those scenarios is because I didn't have the time and the game shouldn't cater to me, the other scenario is because EQlive is huge and without a large guild and/or gigantic friends list, many/most of the non-current zones are ghost towns. The third scenario that you mentioned - the social aspect applies to many as well , but, much like the discussion on solo gameplay versus group that we've had on these discussion boards, if that is the reason to allow boxing to make and keep the soloers/anti-socials happy because that's their play-style, then I believe its a poor reason and it goes against Pantheon's tenets. We're trying to make Pantheon a group-centric game again, not actively allow and support alternative methods that would be a detriment to group play and promote solo-play.
I would much rather thought be put into how to better design the grouping experience to make sure there would be avenues for those who do not have as much time (not talking about dailies like WoW), but something. Population and game size is harder to address as expansions will come (hopefully) and the game's population will dwindle over time, but a game like EQ is too big for its own good now. Instead of releasing pointless content that adds 5 levels and a new round of spells/skills etc., add content to some of the older zones/areas versus actively engaging in spreading the population thinner through new released content.
Also, I disagree that boxers are at disadvantage as well. They have the unique advantage in that they are eliminating one of the major hurdles to a group centric game - the need to find a group and socialize with their peers. Let's say that a boxed group is 20% less efficient than a full group. However, 20% of a non-boxed player's time is used trying to find a group or running to new group members (probably an underestimate in early EQ), then the boxed group is not at a disadvantage. And, ultimately, once players realize they can get exp (and all the loot) as quickly without having the need to rely on others schedules or playstyles, etc. then I'd argue many/most boxers will stop doing so, and that you are in the minority in the fact that as a boxer, you would choose the group over the boxing. Further, MMO environments foster a competitive, "Keep up with the Joneses" environment, and once players see that boxing can be effective, budgets willing, more would do so because they want to be the best.
And, whether boxing affects other players depends on the amount of boxers that play and the amount of content available. If boxing full groups was as rampant at EQlaunch as it is today, then it would have affected group play as there was an extremely limited number of areas to camp as high level groups.
Ultimately, you're right, boxing it isn't against the TOS (unless it was) and boxers pay more money to the game, so I highly doubt it will be banned, and, I actually don't care whether it's allowed or not, but I won't say that boxing can't be/isn't a detriment and can't provide unique advantages to a group-centric game.
Good post Raiden. I agree entirely.
I cannot even imagine how much differently EQ would have played out early on had the average player been able to box. I think it would have been a pretty drastic difference. Lets not forget, originally EQ was played in first person and the client was full screen and did not offer the ability to minimize or even alt-tab. They took the slogan "You're in our world now" very seriously and for a very good reason. It created a different environment from that of modern EQ or other MMOs. Its largely my hope for a similar environment existing in Pantheon that compels me to follow and promote this game.
Raidin is much more eloquent than I am on delivering what I think. Totally agree with everything he has said, including the fact that most likely it won't be against the rules to box. But if we could find a way to nix it without rocking the boat, it would be a good thing IMO.
1 person locking down planes and selling loot or lootrights for krono in less than 1 week using boxed/bots software like ISBoxer, nope not a detriment to a group game. *sarcasm was used here*
The real minority are the people manual boxing and willing to give up the spots for other people as it loses them power when they out level boxes, sad truth, used to be like you say though kilsin, but that is rare these days.
If the design is for the game to be group centric, then follow that 100% or we will end up in a situation like eq is now.
Man...so many strong feelings against it! I guess you guys have had much worse experiences than me. I suppose it really depends on the game, in VG it was completely different and was not a game breaker at all except for the odd bot/gold farmer but they really weren't a problem at all.
I guess it will be something we test in Alpha/Beta and get your feedback on to see if we can balance it out and make it work, either way we would never do anything to hurt Pantheon, so we will have to wait and see how it goes.
Thanks for all the feedback, it is appreciate!
Kilsin said:
Man...so many strong feelings against it! I guess you guys have had much worse experiences than me. I suppose it really depends on the game, in VG it was completely different and was not a game breaker at all except for the odd bot/gold farmer but they really weren't a problem at all.
I guess it will be something we test in Alpha/Beta and get your feedback on to see if we can balance it out and make it work, either way we would never do anything to hurt Pantheon, so we will have to wait and see how it goes.
Thanks for all the feedback, it is appreciate!
In VG boxing wasn't an issue because there was nearly endless content and an extremely low population. So, rarely was a boxed group taking contested loot. In comparison, if dungeons and content were more EQesque in VG and a boxed group/duo/trio was holding the frenzied camp in Gukbottom for hours on end, then it could have been a huge issue as there were very limited options for haste items at EQlaunch.
However, I will admit that Boxing almost became a necessity in VG (much like Mercenaries did on EQlive) due to the inability to find groups. But, I'd argue that is more of an issue of game design/poor launch (VG's case) or EQ's longevity.
However, I believe if Pantheon delivers on its tenets and is a good game, then the population shouldn't be an issue at least from the launch through first few expansions, and if it is, then that's a different problem entirely anyway. Again, I'd rather brainstorm ideas that help with grouping, rather than at least initially surrender to the fact that grouping won't be possible for everyone. I look forward to alpha/beta testing.
Raidan said:
In VG boxing wasn't an issue because there was nearly endless content and an extremely low population. So, rarely was a boxed group taking contested loot. In comparison, if dungeons and content were more EQesque in VG and a boxed group/duo/trio was holding the frenzied camp in Gukbottom for hours on end, then it could have been a huge issue as there were very limited options for haste items at EQlaunch.
However, I will admit that Boxing almost became a necessity in VG (much like Mercenaries did on EQlive) due to the inability to find groups. But, I'd argue that is more of an issue of game design/poor launch (VG's case) or EQ's longevity.
However, I believe if Pantheon delivers on its tenets and is a good game, then the population shouldn't be an issue at least from the launch through first few expansions, and if it is, then that's a different problem entirely anyway. Again, I'd rather brainstorm ideas that help with grouping, rather than at least initially surrender to the fact that grouping won't be possible for everyone. I look forward to alpha/beta testing.
Again, spot on. Like I said in the thread on "How to stop the sock", some of the suggestions floating around are really based on very different circumstances. Comparing Pantheon to older games years later, or emulators is just going to be a stretch at times. Sure, some of the gameplay and features may be the same, but there should be little to no need for boxing in a new game. Like you said, it will primarily be used as a pay2win by players who want to get ahead and avoid relying on other players. That is basically the polar opposite of what Pantheon claims to be aiming to achieve.
People multi boxed way back in 2000 in EQ1. I don't think I even had a computer until 2000 which was given to me. I soon purchased my first computer and started boxing another account in 2001. If I was two boxing way back then I'm positive other players had already started. I know the guys that convinced me to start playing EQ1 had started two boxing way before I even purchased the game. I used the second account to help level up my ranger because groups weren't possible trust me I tried everything. I lived in Japan and on my server their was maybe 20 plus Oceanic players I know because we all raided together at night using a special channel named /eqaussie. I even tried to join a Japanese guild but they wouldn't allow me to join, I added everyone that I could to my friends list, grouped up every night with my friend from work and his wife when they logged online. Most nights I would site around and try to solo for 2-3 hours while LFG and trying to build my own parties with no luck prior to eventually buying that new computer and leveling up another character so I could have something to do when nobody else was around.
EQ1 People started boxing characters easily since 2000.
EQ2 People played more than one account. I know players from Allure, Gloryhunters, VvV, and many others who two boxed.
VG Players played more than one account. I had lots of friends who had more than one account.
Rift I had more than one account but the style of the game made it really never required.
GW2 I purchased a second account but while playing my main account realized that it wasn't required at all and never even logged onto the second account.
Archeage Another game that doesn't require a second account.
ESO Not required I only used one account.
Age of Conan I only ever used one account.
WoW I'm sure you could easily use a second account but I never played the game that much and only had one.
I know which type of games I've enjoyed the most and I'm pretty sure the community on this site enjoyed the same games I did. Honestly I'm all for a game that doesn't require me to play more than one account. I wish I could find a group every night when I logged online like back in EQ2 and VG. In these two games I found two amazing groups I will remember the rest of my life. In VG I also never grouped outside my guild Reverence because of all the great players I had around me. I look forward to possibly finding another great group to play together again.
Well, I played EQ heavy for the first 3 years, I knew 1 person on Tarew Marr that boxed, and 2 people on Rallos Zek that boxed. I was in raiding guilds on both servers, with full friends lists on both. 3 people, lol. It was definitely NOT common. It required 2 accounts and two PCs early on, and for most people two dial up connections, because even in the city I lived in, broadband wasn't available to most residents outside of the downtown area.
Anasyn said:EQ1 People started boxing characters easily since 2000.
While you may have had that experience in EQ personally (and it may have been more prevalent at off times, but I often grouped/raided through them), it was not the norm on my server at least through Velious (and I was in one of the higher level raid guilds).
And boxing definitely wasn't easy - as Dullahan said, most people back in 1999/2000 were still on dial-up internet, requiring two dedicated phone lines, computers, and accounts. With that being said, I did see a few boxed characters also, but they were few and far between.
I'm not trying to argue over boxing though, and I understand why you (and I and others) have done it legitimately; however, I'd rather work on a solution to assist in finding groups at off hours/times rather than again surrender to the fact that the development team understands that finding groups will be difficult so boxing characters is inevitable. I'd argue that the experience of EQ1 that is attempting to be replicated won't occur with that mindset. I think this topic would be a good developer led discussion to foster community interaction and ideas.
Sevens said:
The sad truth is that the automaters are NOT cheating
Daybreak games have given the green light to use 3rd party programs to bot
Sad state of affairs
This is incorrect. What they did was re-affirm that the use of 3rd party programs such as isboxer, keyclone, etc. that broadcast key strokes to other minimized clients is acceptable. Fully automated botting via programs like MacroQuest is not, nor ever has been allowed - you actually have to be at your PC actually playing the characters. This is nothing new, it has been like that for years, they didn't just give it the green light.