Saphreal said:
This it totally hardcore and probably unrealistic, but it would be cool if the developers made it take, for a casual gamer, about as long it took them to make the game to get to level 50. Again, incredibly hardcore, but that would be a way to finally balance content with prolonged play. Hardcore power levelers that it made it 50 before the casual gamers could entertain themselves with the usual endgame.
I think this is tough to do. Think of it as a bar with the arrow in the middle. On one side you have EQ/Vanguard Gameplay and the other side you have Casual Gameplay. If you move the arrow more toward the EQ style(or harder) you start to lose some of the casual players, but vice versa when you move the arrow toward casual gameplay. I consider myself a casual player(time wise) and not that I don't want the process to take a bit. I also think heading too far in one direction will limit playerbase. So there has to be a sort of balance between the two. I don't think EQ or Vanguard was bad, but I wouldn't make it too much more difficult or slower then those games.
@Niien:
"Note: Sorry for the wall of text, this is an important subject for me much like the teleporters. If you make it to the end... +1 patience +1 communication lol!"
+1 for me on both counts!
A well stated post that I agree with entirely.
/bow
Niien said:
Jimm0thy, I agree that making a name for yourself was very important and alive in EQ. Though not so much in today's games.
It wasn't just your name either. The tag over your head was a prized possession. You represented your guild as much as you represented yourself. Thus, within the larger community of your server - you tried to (and I succeeded!) find a community full of people that you really enjoyed spending time with.... helping them as they helped you.
Here's hoping we find that magic again in Pantheon.
The entire point of Pantheon is to not be concerned with the casual demographic. Don't exclude them but certainly changing things in the hope of pulling in a few more subs by lowering the bar is not what the devs have in mind. If i could find the quote it was said the would be happy with a 50K sub player base if it allowed them to make the game they want not simply a marketable game that will peak and then die within a year.
No one that started EQ was thought of as Hardcore. The game made them that way because it was so fun and addictive.
Rivacom said:
Saphreal said:
This it totally hardcore and probably unrealistic, but it would be cool if the developers made it take, for a casual gamer, about as long it took them to make the game to get to level 50. Again, incredibly hardcore, but that would be a way to finally balance content with prolonged play. Hardcore power levelers that it made it 50 before the casual gamers could entertain themselves with the usual endgame.
I think this is tough to do. Think of it as a bar with the arrow in the middle. On one side you have EQ/Vanguard Gameplay and the other side you have Casual Gameplay. If you move the arrow more toward the EQ style(or harder) you start to lose some of the casual players, but vice versa when you move the arrow toward casual gameplay. I consider myself a casual player(time wise) and not that I don't want the process to take a bit. I also think heading too far in one direction will limit playerbase. So there has to be a sort of balance between the two. I don't think EQ or Vanguard was bad, but I wouldn't make it too much more difficult or slower then those games.
I agree that the devs won't be able to please everyone - but - they should err on the side of pleasing their stated core target audience. In this case, folks who want slower progression.
For sure there is a balance point there somewhere... but ultimately, from my perspective, the people who should end up feeling "hmm... this isn't quite what I was expecting" - should be folks who are looking at their exp meter and being concerned that it is moving too slowly for their tastes, not too fast.
Because ultimately, for those folks, if they choose to stay - they still have a lot of game in front of them. Go the other way, and the gamers playing a ton will end up logging in and thinking "Hmmm... nothing for me to do until the next expansion... maybe I'll go play something else..."
Unavoidable for some maybe, but the devs should strive to keep that top end alive with content - rather than appeasing the other end by giving them content faster.
I am actually in favor of much less significant, but more common benchmarks. In most MMOs these days you get a lot at every level, and they strive to make the leveling very entertaining. One of things about EQ that was nice is you only got spells every four levels or so, and warriors basically just gained a little more attack and health. The level advancement system was very simple. While it might not be quite as much fun, it's a huge weight off the back of development. When you simplify level advancement like that, you can take a huge amount of time and pack it with many less significant levels that will give people something to always pursue. All people need is a dangling carrot. In fact, it can just be a piece of a carrot; in addition, you don't get that much more for a cupcake. But if there is nothing or it seem unreachably distant, you become disillusioned. If the difference between levels is basically just more powerful versions of the same spell or higher attack and health scores, you can almost put together any timeline, divide it by a number of levels that keeps the gameplay fresh, and then sprinkle in the unique abilities and gameplay mechanics at an even rate. It's true that there is also the world content that needs to coincide with those levels, but if you make monsters award experience for longer, you can get around a lot of that. In addition, from what I've seen, world content is not going to be the issue. That's mostly what I've seen coming off the press so far, and in my opinion, it's one of the easier things to do. The couple smalltime games I've worked on before, they always started me off on level design.
Wandidar said:
Rivacom said:
Saphreal said:
This it totally hardcore and probably unrealistic, but it would be cool if the developers made it take, for a casual gamer, about as long it took them to make the game to get to level 50. Again, incredibly hardcore, but that would be a way to finally balance content with prolonged play. Hardcore power levelers that it made it 50 before the casual gamers could entertain themselves with the usual endgame.
I think this is tough to do. Think of it as a bar with the arrow in the middle. On one side you have EQ/Vanguard Gameplay and the other side you have Casual Gameplay. If you move the arrow more toward the EQ style(or harder) you start to lose some of the casual players, but vice versa when you move the arrow toward casual gameplay. I consider myself a casual player(time wise) and not that I don't want the process to take a bit. I also think heading too far in one direction will limit playerbase. So there has to be a sort of balance between the two. I don't think EQ or Vanguard was bad, but I wouldn't make it too much more difficult or slower then those games.
I agree that the devs won't be able to please everyone - but - they should err on the side of pleasing their stated core target audience. In this case, folks who want slower progression.
For sure there is a balance point there somewhere... but ultimately, from my perspective, the people who should end up feeling "hmm... this isn't quite what I was expecting" - should be folks who are looking at their exp meter and being concerned that it is moving too slowly for their tastes, not too fast.
Because ultimately, for those folks, if they choose to stay - they still have a lot of game in front of them. Go the other way, and the gamers playing a ton will end up logging in and thinking "Hmmm... nothing for me to do until the next expansion... maybe I'll go play something else..."
Unavoidable for some maybe, but the devs should strive to keep that top end alive with content - rather than appeasing the other end by giving them content faster.
Yeah, I agree with both you guys, but I think you can achieve that same rate of advancement, as in EQ and Vanguard, by implementing more levels and dividing the content amongst those levels. Levels will feel a little watered down, but I don't think any more than EQ original. I also want to make the observation that at the end of the day, we probably aren't going to have that many rec gamers. This is just not going to be that type of game. Those willing to pay a sub are going to be the more committed gamers. Endgame content was never intended for the rec gamer. It's become that way because it's ridiculously easy to achieve, but the endgame was always meant for the power gamer or the veteran. Ultimately, even us, the hardcore, old-school gamers, will have to recalibrate to a slower leveling progression; however, just like after playing an older game for awhile, the pixelation and bad graphics seem to fade away, so too will the slower leveling become more reasonable.
Wandidar said:
Rivacom said:
Saphreal said:
This it totally hardcore and probably unrealistic, but it would be cool if the developers made it take, for a casual gamer, about as long it took them to make the game to get to level 50. Again, incredibly hardcore, but that would be a way to finally balance content with prolonged play. Hardcore power levelers that it made it 50 before the casual gamers could entertain themselves with the usual endgame.
I think this is tough to do. Think of it as a bar with the arrow in the middle. On one side you have EQ/Vanguard Gameplay and the other side you have Casual Gameplay. If you move the arrow more toward the EQ style(or harder) you start to lose some of the casual players, but vice versa when you move the arrow toward casual gameplay. I consider myself a casual player(time wise) and not that I don't want the process to take a bit. I also think heading too far in one direction will limit playerbase. So there has to be a sort of balance between the two. I don't think EQ or Vanguard was bad, but I wouldn't make it too much more difficult or slower then those games.
I agree that the devs won't be able to please everyone - but - they should err on the side of pleasing their stated core target audience. In this case, folks who want slower progression.
For sure there is a balance point there somewhere... but ultimately, from my perspective, the people who should end up feeling "hmm... this isn't quite what I was expecting" - should be folks who are looking at their exp meter and being concerned that it is moving too slowly for their tastes, not too fast.
Because ultimately, for those folks, if they choose to stay - they still have a lot of game in front of them. Go the other way, and the gamers playing a ton will end up logging in and thinking "Hmmm... nothing for me to do until the next expansion... maybe I'll go play something else..."
Unavoidable for some maybe, but the devs should strive to keep that top end alive with content - rather than appeasing the other end by giving them content faster.
Unfortunately I think this is just the cost of creating a game now a days. Don't forget this is a business for VRI. As you could see in the KS campaign, the Core didn't even come close to the original goal. So yes, we all want the game to revolve around th core ideas that we all love. But if they only cater from that point and further in, they risk attracting new players, which is vital to keep the game in development from release to whenever the game may end.
I hope it takes a very long time to reach max level.
One of the great things EQ did was make the journey to max level an adventure that was fun and filled with tons of interesting places to visit. You could literally level several characters and never hunt in the same zones as you did before if you wanted to.
Newer MMOs seem to solely focus on endgame and allow the player to get there in a month or less. What doesn't seem to be thought out is then their endgame is 2-3 zones where high level characters just grind and grind for months until new content is out. Having your player base blow through 80 to 90% of your content in a month or so to get to max level leads to bored max level characters.
I know the slow leveling approach has it's drawbacks. It's harder for friends to pick up and play 6 months in if you're established. One year from now, how populated will the lower level zones be?
Even with the negatives, I much rather have a long journey to enjoy than be spoon fed content and sit at max level in a month wondering which game I should play next.
i am of the belief that 1 year of playing 4 or 5 hours a day or ~1800 hours if you run it nolife style would be a good timeline to shoot for max level. especially since there are other tasks to complete as well, such as building your spell/skill list or gearing properly to support those skills and spells, to give it even more longevity before you are "Done"
So here is my take on the "I want it now" mentality. Today's games have given into the whining kids/complainers/lazy/non-motivated people. They have simplified everything from travel, to leveling, to gearing up, to crafting. They gave in whenever someone whined about something being too hard, taking too much time, or whatever the case maybe. This is where they COMPLETELY went wrong.
This situation is very easily and overly simplified with this analogy.
One of my children doesn't do their chores for the week. As a consequence we ground them and tell them no games, friends, electronics, TV, etc for however long.They then do the following:
- Complains, moans, and says anything they can to get out of it. Any excuse they can think of for not taking care of her responsibility, and trust me there have been some off the wall excuses.
- After the tantrum is over, they then try to bargain their way out of it.
- After that doesn't work, they gets really sad and starts to cry.
- Then after they are done crying they accept their punishment because we didn't give in.
- Then they are happy again five minutes later and a better person because of it.
This is exactly what today's games don't do. They give in to fear that they are going to lose subs if they don't dumb this or that down. They don't force people to play the game it was meant to be played. When I played WoW from the beta to the first expansion... I was able to solo all the way to max level without any help it seemed like. Though the last time I heard about it I was told they had to make it easier because people were complaining about it taking too long or being too hard. I think I max leveled my warlock in a week or two something retarded like that? It was just crazy... I couldn't comprehend why they would give into whiny people like that.
So what I'm trying to say is... stick to your core values, tell people how it's going to be, let them complain, and then watch them get over it and be a better person because of it. If they leave, you aren't going to stop it... they are leaving for their own reasons and making it easier isn't going to be the reason they stay. They are going to stay because of the friendships they have made during their time in game. That is the real reason EQ lasted so long. So many fond memories with friends that probably have never even met IRL. A lot of times these friendships transcended into relationships and life long friendships.
This was all caused by having an environment that forced downtime so that people will talk to one another, get to know each other, learn to depend on one another, trust one another, be with one another through the good and bad times(both inside and outside the game, and and ultimately become friends.
One of the best things about Everquest was the fact that a pack of level 30 mobs wasn't completely trivial to a max level character.. get enough of them they can easily kill you if you're squishy. What helped create this horizontal leveling curve was the con system, a red con mob was very difficult to land spells on, so even though you might not gain spells but every 4-5 levels, trying to fight a level 33 mob as a level 30 was impossible usually, but if you ding 3 levels even though you didn't really get more powerful, you now have the opportunity for your spells/abilities to land on that mob more reliably and you can now maybe kill it. And the reward for that was maybe now that new named mob that drops some loot you need is in your range and you can try to take him on.
Niien said:
So here is my take on the "I want it now" mentality. Today's games have given into the whining kids/complainers/lazy/non-motivated people. They have simplified everything from travel, to leveling, to gearing up, to crafting. They gave in whenever someone whined about something being too hard, taking too much time, or whatever the case maybe. This is where they COMPLETELY went wrong.
This situation is very easily and overly simplified with this analogy.
One of my children doesn't do their chores for the week. As a consequence we ground them and tell them no games, friends, electronics, TV, etc for however long.They then do the following:
- Complains, moans, and says anything they can to get out of it. Any excuse they can think of for not taking care of her responsibility, and trust me there have been some off the wall excuses.
- After the tantrum is over, they then tries to bargain their way out of it.
- After that doesn't work, they gets really sad and starts to cry.
- Then after they are done crying they accept their punishment because we didn't give in.
- Then they are happy again five minutes later and a better person because of it.
This is exactly what today's games don't do. They given in to fear that they are going to lose subs if they don't dumb this or that down. They don't force people to play the game it was meant to be played. When I played WoW from the beta to the first expansion... I was able to solo all the way to max level without any help it seemed like. Though the last time I heard about it I was told they had to make it easier because people were complaining about it taking too long or being too hard. I think I max leveled my warlock in a week or two something retarded like that? It was just crazy... I couldn't comprehend why they would give into whiny people like that.
So what I'm trying to say is... stick to your core values, tell people how it's going to be, let them complain, and then watch them get over it and be a better person because of it. If they leave, you aren't going to stop it... they are leaving for their own reasons and making it easier isn't going to be the reason they stay. They are going to stay because of the friendships they have made during their time in game. That is the real reason EQ lasted so long. So many fond memories with friends that probably have never even met IRL. A lot of times these friendships transcended into relationships and life long friendships.
This was all caused by having an environment that forced downtime so that people will talk to one another, get to know each other, learn to depend on one another, trust one another, be with one another through the good in bad times(both inside and outside the game, and and ultimately become friends.
I simply had to quote that^
.
Xeravik said:
It's worth noting, I think this was mentioned in the January podcast, that the 'rites of passage' system will encourage exploration and social interaction in order to move forward. This system will slow down the leveling, which is good, but it does need to be done carefully. Games that restrict leveling, or progressing too much can be very 'off-putting' Destiny is a different genre, but I remember in the beta, and even currently, they restrict the max amount of glimmer, commendations, and marks (all currencies) you can earn in a given week, and the amount you can hold has a cap. On top of this, you are limited to the amount of bounties (quests) you can do in a day. You do reach max level on this game much quicker, which i think is intended, but why even have a leveling system if youre gonna reach max level in a day, and then it's just a gear grind. Anyway......
I think there will always be people who powerlevel or get to max rank quickly, which is fine 100% fine in my opinion, especially if it's done as a group. I know my first max rank char in VG took a considerable and acceptable amount of time, at least 6 months, probably more (i cant remember). After that, though, I liked to start alts and try new classes. I did NOT want to spend another 6months to a year leveling this char to max rank. Since I had more game knowledge I lv'd faster, much faster, and I helped some noobs along the way by teaching them encounters/mechanics/some questing knowledge and etc.
For the non-powerlevelers, when the game releases, there should be more value, through game design, in not rushing to max level. You spent more time exploring, crafting, harvesting, farming, questing, and etc....your character will be more well rounded and there will be value to this whether it be items obtained, wealth, and ability to do more on your own. I mean, obviously if you take 2 years to level cause you derped around, sucked at the game, or whatever other reason you shouldnt be rewarded, and you shouldnt be b****ing about powerlevelers, and unfortunately, there will be those people and it will be our job to take them in a create a great community.
Power leveling didn't come until later. Its was what you did to twinks...
Early EQ was brutal, and those people who invested a lot of TIME into their Character and outpaced most others on the server... also died a lot. Sometimes completely lost corpses. Not to mention, the death penalty was 50% more EXP loss, and corpses rotted within hours, before they nerfed it.
Early on, there was ZERO resurrections. I got my first EXP res, 4 months into EverQuest... all the death before hand, was EXP loss... & countless levels.
I once lost 2 levels in one day.
None of that stopped me from being on a frontrunner for one of the highest lvl Characters on the server. I could've easily outpaced anyone... almost did, but I was a consummate role player and spend nearly all my time, in cities helping players and role playing as an Elven lord.
Rivacom said:
Wandidar said:
Rivacom said:
Saphreal said:
This it totally hardcore and probably unrealistic, but it would be cool if the developers made it take, for a casual gamer, about as long it took them to make the game to get to level 50. Again, incredibly hardcore, but that would be a way to finally balance content with prolonged play. Hardcore power levelers that it made it 50 before the casual gamers could entertain themselves with the usual endgame.
I think this is tough to do. Think of it as a bar with the arrow in the middle. On one side you have EQ/Vanguard Gameplay and the other side you have Casual Gameplay. If you move the arrow more toward the EQ style(or harder) you start to lose some of the casual players, but vice versa when you move the arrow toward casual gameplay. I consider myself a casual player(time wise) and not that I don't want the process to take a bit. I also think heading too far in one direction will limit playerbase. So there has to be a sort of balance between the two. I don't think EQ or Vanguard was bad, but I wouldn't make it too much more difficult or slower then those games.
I agree that the devs won't be able to please everyone - but - they should err on the side of pleasing their stated core target audience. In this case, folks who want slower progression.
For sure there is a balance point there somewhere... but ultimately, from my perspective, the people who should end up feeling "hmm... this isn't quite what I was expecting" - should be folks who are looking at their exp meter and being concerned that it is moving too slowly for their tastes, not too fast.
Because ultimately, for those folks, if they choose to stay - they still have a lot of game in front of them. Go the other way, and the gamers playing a ton will end up logging in and thinking "Hmmm... nothing for me to do until the next expansion... maybe I'll go play something else..."
Unavoidable for some maybe, but the devs should strive to keep that top end alive with content - rather than appeasing the other end by giving them content faster.
Unfortunately I think this is just the cost of creating a game now a days. Don't forget this is a business for VRI. As you could see in the KS campaign, the Core didn't even come close to the original goal. So yes, we all want the game to revolve around th core ideas that we all love. But if they only cater from that point and further in, they risk attracting new players, which is vital to keep the game in development from release to whenever the game may end.
You have to build to your target. Especially if you are a low budget game. VRI is not Electronic Arts throwing a bazillion dollars into a game and thus deciding that the game has to try to please everyone (which - except for WoW - seems generally to end up pleasing a whole lot fewer people than they hope... i.e. NOBODY has built the "WoW killer" yet, while I'm sure everyone building a big budget game quietly hopes they do suck huge percentages of WoW's player base over)
If you start making concessions away from your core - you lose that core... and what I think other games have proven is that you don't suddenly gain all those players you weren't initially looking at to begin with. Because ultimately, you never quite go enough in either direction....
If VRI made concessions and the game ended up "sorta hardcore" - well that would still be "extremely hardcore" to some.... and too casual for others.
VRI seems to have a solid idea of who they believe their audience is. They need to make all decisions based on that audience... even if it meant some players leaving (hell, even if it meant ME leaving) - to do otherwise will result in a game that is less than it set out to be.
Yes this means some will like it and some won't... but I think you assure that people won't like it (at one end or the other) when you start making concessions.
Your also assuming your going to attract every single EQ and VG player that ever existed. Say there was 5 million total between each game at max hype. A big chunk of those players are probably gone, either invested in other games and don't care to try new. Don't care about gaming as much(grew up had a family, stopped gaming). Or don't have time to invest in a game.
So I think when you start complaining that MMO's are catering to kids and complainers, yes your partially right. But basically they did a couple different things. 1. They made them more viable to Casual players. EQ was harsh on casual players, and I would be most players today who played EQ in their prime, are quite busy in their life 16 years later. So while EQ's lengthy play is awesome, we've also probably lost a lot of those players who had the time to spend 8 hours a day leveling. This is where many mmo's have tried to make up for, the weekend warriors. 2. Everquest was a pain to understand if you knew nothing about the game. It did take me a while and probably many others to learn common sayings, paths, zone mappings, hell I remember my first cleric Chain, it wasn't pretty. So it did make it hard for younger players and people with short attention spans to get into it. Frustration would set it and they would leave. This is where games like WoW have picked up and catered to these people.
So I just want you not to assume every player who plays the other games is a whiny kid, because there are many other reasons people play these games.
Rivacom said:
Your also assuming your going to attract every single EQ and VG player that ever existed. Say there was 5 million total between each game at max hype. A big chunk of those players are probably gone, either invested in other games and don't care to try new. Don't care about gaming as much(grew up had a family, stopped gaming). Or don't have time to invest in a game.
So I think when you start complaining that MMO's are catering to kids and complainers, yes your partially right. But basically they did a couple different things. 1. They made them more viable to Casual players. EQ was harsh on casual players, and I would be most players today who played EQ in their prime, are quite busy in their life 16 years later. So while EQ's lengthy play is awesome, we've also probably lost a lot of those players who had the time to spend 8 hours a day leveling. This is where many mmo's have tried to make up for, the weekend warriors. 2. Everquest was a pain to understand if you knew nothing about the game. It did take me a while and probably many others to learn common sayings, paths, zone mappings, hell I remember my first cleric Chain, it wasn't pretty. So it did make it hard for younger players and people with short attention spans to get into it. Frustration would set it and they would leave. This is where games like WoW have picked up and catered to these people.
So I just want you not to assume every player who plays the other games is a whiny kid, because there are many other reasons people play these games.
I agree Rivacom, that people are older and that people may have moved on or won't hear about the game right away. I also agree that people might not have the time due to family etc.
Though I don't agree that EQ was a pain to understand, you attacked stuff and either were killed by it and it's friends or you killed it. Nothing really complicated about it other than the questing, even that just took thought instead of mindless turn in quests of today's mmos. Also I believe people will get frustrated, though I also believe if it got to the extreme where they would leave they would almost always return due to the fact that they are being challenged here and even if they can't admit it people want to be challenged.
Rivacom said:
Your also assuming your going to attract every single EQ and VG player that ever existed. Say there was 5 million total between each game at max hype. A big chunk of those players are probably gone, either invested in other games and don't care to try new. Don't care about gaming as much(grew up had a family, stopped gaming). Or don't have time to invest in a game.
So I think when you start complaining that MMO's are catering to kids and complainers, yes your partially right. But basically they did a couple different things. 1. They made them more viable to Casual players. EQ was harsh on casual players, and I would be most players today who played EQ in their prime, are quite busy in their life 16 years later. So while EQ's lengthy play is awesome, we've also probably lost a lot of those players who had the time to spend 8 hours a day leveling. This is where many mmo's have tried to make up for, the weekend warriors. 2. Everquest was a pain to understand if you knew nothing about the game. It did take me a while and probably many others to learn common sayings, paths, zone mappings, hell I remember my first cleric Chain, it wasn't pretty. So it did make it hard for younger players and people with short attention spans to get into it. Frustration would set it and they would leave. This is where games like WoW have picked up and catered to these people.
So I just want you not to assume every player who plays the other games is a whiny kid, because there are many other reasons people play these games.
No - I'm assuming they are designing a game for 25k to 50k people... which I believe is what they said their goals are. EQ peaked at around 500k subs back in the day... with (I'd guess) at least a couple hundred thousand more over the years in total.
They aren't making Pantheon for EVERYONE - they are making it for SOMEONE.
I also have never bought into the "I don't have time anymore" argument - that is a euphemism for "please make your game cater to what I want" statement. While there are for sure some cases where someone absolutely does not have time (and in such cases I would wonder why they are spending ANY time) - I think that most of the time "I don't have the time anymore" means "I don't have time I want to spend... I want to spend less time on the game because I have other past times I want to spend time on... so make the game fit the amount of time I want to devote to it"
Wandidar said:
Rivacom said:
Your also assuming your going to attract every single EQ and VG player that ever existed. Say there was 5 million total between each game at max hype. A big chunk of those players are probably gone, either invested in other games and don't care to try new. Don't care about gaming as much(grew up had a family, stopped gaming). Or don't have time to invest in a game.
So I think when you start complaining that MMO's are catering to kids and complainers, yes your partially right. But basically they did a couple different things. 1. They made them more viable to Casual players. EQ was harsh on casual players, and I would be most players today who played EQ in their prime, are quite busy in their life 16 years later. So while EQ's lengthy play is awesome, we've also probably lost a lot of those players who had the time to spend 8 hours a day leveling. This is where many mmo's have tried to make up for, the weekend warriors. 2. Everquest was a pain to understand if you knew nothing about the game. It did take me a while and probably many others to learn common sayings, paths, zone mappings, hell I remember my first cleric Chain, it wasn't pretty. So it did make it hard for younger players and people with short attention spans to get into it. Frustration would set it and they would leave. This is where games like WoW have picked up and catered to these people.
So I just want you not to assume every player who plays the other games is a whiny kid, because there are many other reasons people play these games.
No - I'm assuming they are designing a game for 25k to 50k people... which I believe is what they said their goals are. EQ peaked at around 500k subs back in the day... with (I'd guess) at least a couple hundred thousand more over the years in total.
They aren't making Pantheon for EVERYONE - they are making it for SOMEONE.
I also have never bought into the "I don't have time anymore" argument - that is a euphemism for "please make your game cater to what I want" statement. While there are for sure some cases where someone absolutely does not have time (and in such cases I would wonder why they are spending ANY time) - I think that most of the time "I don't have the time anymore" means "I don't have time I want to spend... I want to spend less time on the game because I have other past times I want to spend time on... so make the game fit the amount of time I want to devote to it"
Truth!
Wandidar said:
Rivacom said:
Your also assuming your going to attract every single EQ and VG player that ever existed. Say there was 5 million total between each game at max hype. A big chunk of those players are probably gone, either invested in other games and don't care to try new. Don't care about gaming as much(grew up had a family, stopped gaming). Or don't have time to invest in a game.
So I think when you start complaining that MMO's are catering to kids and complainers, yes your partially right. But basically they did a couple different things. 1. They made them more viable to Casual players. EQ was harsh on casual players, and I would be most players today who played EQ in their prime, are quite busy in their life 16 years later. So while EQ's lengthy play is awesome, we've also probably lost a lot of those players who had the time to spend 8 hours a day leveling. This is where many mmo's have tried to make up for, the weekend warriors. 2. Everquest was a pain to understand if you knew nothing about the game. It did take me a while and probably many others to learn common sayings, paths, zone mappings, hell I remember my first cleric Chain, it wasn't pretty. So it did make it hard for younger players and people with short attention spans to get into it. Frustration would set it and they would leave. This is where games like WoW have picked up and catered to these people.
So I just want you not to assume every player who plays the other games is a whiny kid, because there are many other reasons people play these games.
No - I'm assuming they are designing a game for 25k to 50k people... which I believe is what they said their goals are. EQ peaked at around 500k subs back in the day... with (I'd guess) at least a couple hundred thousand more over the years in total.
They aren't making Pantheon for EVERYONE - they are making it for SOMEONE.
I also have never bought into the "I don't have time anymore" argument - that is a euphemism for "please make your game cater to what I want" statement. While there are for sure some cases where someone absolutely does not have time (and in such cases I would wonder why they are spending ANY time) - I think that most of the time "I don't have the time anymore" means "I don't have time I want to spend... I want to spend less time on the game because I have other past times I want to spend time on... so make the game fit the amount of time I want to devote to it"
I think we'll just butt heads here but first I want to say I'm not arguing in the fact the VRI wants to develop for the 25k people out there. My arguement is always been, can they survive with just those 25k people. I'm not behind VRI so I have no idea, but I've been around MMO's for over 15 years to see bigger mmos drop because of user base.
Also I think the time issue is being blown out a little. This is my example. I have a friend, married(wife plays games with him) and has no kids, no real time consuming activities other then his day job. So he can come home after work and dig right into playing. So say he can have anywhere from 5-6 hours a night playing and maybe all weekend. Myself, I have a wife who hates games, 2 kids, and I focus on them for a big portion of my night until they are in bed. So at best, I maybe have 3-4 hours a night and roughly a little more on weekend nights. It's not that I am not devoting time to playing, it's that I don't have nearly as much time due to real life events. So don't assume "I don't have time" = I'd rather not game right now. If I could I would game every day of my life.
Yes - there may be periods in life where time gets restricted. But it then opens up again (or it did for me for sure). But even at its tightest, it was "what do I want to spend those few hours on" - and for me, it was EQ... because that meant I was home. I just didn't worry that 3-5 hours a night meant that I was behind someone playing 6 - 10 hours a day or whatever.
I know sub numbers have been problematic for other MMO's - but that statement has to be measured against their goal numbers. Is it the next "AAA" big budget MMO - and are they needing 300k+ subscribers or more? They would fail then at 250k... or have to change things dramatically to try to suck in players.
But if your target in 25k - then 250k would be flippin amazing.
Look at the growth pattern of EVE. They started out back in 2003 with 25k subs. They grew to several hundred thousand over the years... and what was their model?
Their model was "target a very specific type of player, period"
I'm not beginning to suggest that Pantheon will grow to several hundred thousand players.... but I am suggesting that they shouldn't start seeking more members by making design choices counter to their target audience's desires before they even hit alpha.
Niien said:
So here is my take on the "I want it now" mentality. Today's games have given into the whining kids/complainers/lazy/non-motivated people. They have simplified everything from travel, to leveling, to gearing up, to crafting. They gave in whenever someone whined about something being too hard, taking too much time, or whatever the case maybe. This is where they COMPLETELY went wrong.
This situation is very easily and overly simplified with this analogy.
One of my children doesn't do their chores for the week. As a consequence we ground them and tell them no games, friends, electronics, TV, etc for however long.They then do the following:
- Complains, moans, and says anything they can to get out of it. Any excuse they can think of for not taking care of her responsibility, and trust me there have been some off the wall excuses.
- After the tantrum is over, they then tries to bargain their way out of it.
- After that doesn't work, they gets really sad and starts to cry.
- Then after they are done crying they accept their punishment because we didn't give in.
- Then they are happy again five minutes later and a better person because of it.
This is exactly what today's games don't do. They given in to fear that they are going to lose subs if they don't dumb this or that down. They don't force people to play the game it was meant to be played. When I played WoW from the beta to the first expansion... I was able to solo all the way to max level without any help it seemed like. Though the last time I heard about it I was told they had to make it easier because people were complaining about it taking too long or being too hard. I think I max leveled my warlock in a week or two something retarded like that? It was just crazy... I couldn't comprehend why they would give into whiny people like that.
So what I'm trying to say is... stick to your core values, tell people how it's going to be, let them complain, and then watch them get over it and be a better person because of it. If they leave, you aren't going to stop it... they are leaving for their own reasons and making it easier isn't going to be the reason they stay. They are going to stay because of the friendships they have made during their time in game. That is the real reason EQ lasted so long. So many fond memories with friends that probably have never even met IRL. A lot of times these friendships transcended into relationships and life long friendships.
This was all caused by having an environment that forced downtime so that people will talk to one another, get to know each other, learn to depend on one another, trust one another, be with one another through the good in bad times(both inside and outside the game, and and ultimately become friends.
Lol, I love your analogy. I do feel for developers. Players really have no idea what they want 9 times out of 10. (Well that might be a little severe, but for lack of a better expression....)
Rivacom said:
Wandidar said:
Rivacom said:
Your also assuming your going to attract every single EQ and VG player that ever existed. Say there was 5 million total between each game at max hype. A big chunk of those players are probably gone, either invested in other games and don't care to try new. Don't care about gaming as much(grew up had a family, stopped gaming). Or don't have time to invest in a game.
So I think when you start complaining that MMO's are catering to kids and complainers, yes your partially right. But basically they did a couple different things. 1. They made them more viable to Casual players. EQ was harsh on casual players, and I would be most players today who played EQ in their prime, are quite busy in their life 16 years later. So while EQ's lengthy play is awesome, we've also probably lost a lot of those players who had the time to spend 8 hours a day leveling. This is where many mmo's have tried to make up for, the weekend warriors. 2. Everquest was a pain to understand if you knew nothing about the game. It did take me a while and probably many others to learn common sayings, paths, zone mappings, hell I remember my first cleric Chain, it wasn't pretty. So it did make it hard for younger players and people with short attention spans to get into it. Frustration would set it and they would leave. This is where games like WoW have picked up and catered to these people.
So I just want you not to assume every player who plays the other games is a whiny kid, because there are many other reasons people play these games.
No - I'm assuming they are designing a game for 25k to 50k people... which I believe is what they said their goals are. EQ peaked at around 500k subs back in the day... with (I'd guess) at least a couple hundred thousand more over the years in total.
They aren't making Pantheon for EVERYONE - they are making it for SOMEONE.
I also have never bought into the "I don't have time anymore" argument - that is a euphemism for "please make your game cater to what I want" statement. While there are for sure some cases where someone absolutely does not have time (and in such cases I would wonder why they are spending ANY time) - I think that most of the time "I don't have the time anymore" means "I don't have time I want to spend... I want to spend less time on the game because I have other past times I want to spend time on... so make the game fit the amount of time I want to devote to it"
I think we'll just butt heads here but first I want to say I'm not arguing in the fact the VRI wants to develop for the 25k people out there. My arguement is always been, can they survive with just those 25k people. I'm not behind VRI so I have no idea, but I've been around MMO's for over 15 years to see bigger mmos drop because of user base.
Also I think the time issue is being blown out a little. This is my example. I have a friend, married(wife plays games with him) and has no kids, no real time consuming activities other then his day job. So he can come home after work and dig right into playing. So say he can have anywhere from 5-6 hours a night playing and maybe all weekend. Myself, I have a wife who hates games, 2 kids, and I focus on them for a big portion of my night until they are in bed. So at best, I maybe have 3-4 hours a night and roughly a little more on weekend nights. It's not that I am not devoting time to playing, it's that I don't have nearly as much time due to real life events. So don't assume "I don't have time" = I'd rather not game right now. If I could I would game every day of my life.
@Team Sorry to quote all this, though I have to call it like I see it... the forums here are under the curve as far as the best forums I have used. I have a v-bulletin license you guys can have if you want it lol... It's for the latest version. It's also not the best out there, however it's much better than these here.
@Rivacom - Riva, I and I'm sure tons of other people get where you're coming from. I know I myself have been there and if the game were out right now I would be there again. Sometimes life gets a hold of us and we have to do what we have to do. Though in those times we shouldn't try hold others back from experiencing what we got to experience when we were younger, or didn't have a family, and had hours upon hours or even entire summer's to devote to the game we loved to play. We each have our role to play and there will always be a kid on summer break that will be gaming 2-3 times more than us family/job having folk. We can't dumb the game down to our lifestyle because of that. It wouldn't be fair to the kids. We had our hay day and we will again when the family has grown up and life gives us a little time back... Though all of us have to make that sacrifice at one point or another.
I do applaud you for keeping your cool there as it did seem it was about to get heated there. Though like I said we all understand your frustrations. We are there with you man! :) Though let's try to think for others aside from ourselves and to do our best to pass the experiences we had when we were younger to the next generation of gamers and help improve the gaming community as a whole.
Again I think there was a misunderstanding. I am all for not designing the game for the casual player. My statements were again comparing how today's successful MMO's are doing it. I am more then happy to dig my way through the levels such as I did in EQ. I'm looking forward to it.
I always joke, Every MMO I play, I compare to EQ and SWG. "You know when EQ did something like this, it took X amount of time, etc etc."