Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

A year to level 50?

    • 15 posts
    March 1, 2015 8:49 PM PST

    I hope it's painfully slow to reach any kind of first level cap.  I heard it took a year to reach level 50 when it came out but who knows.  That would be fine with me..2 years works too!

     

    I've played a few new mmos and some barely take 3 weeks to reach your cap and that isn't even hard core playing.  I think the longer it takes to reach cap it will also balance the game so more people will start over new toons for a break giving new players someone to play with.  

     

     

    • 318 posts
    March 1, 2015 9:03 PM PST

    Agreed. Slow leveling is a must. Nothing is worse than having a new MMO release and seeing max level characters during the 3 days early access. ArcheAge anyone?

     

    One year or two years for the average gamer to reach max level however... that might be a little extreme.

     

    I feel like Vanguard at launch had a pretty good leveling pace. Although, at launch the quests pretty much ran out after reaching a certain level. I remember leveling from 40 to 50 taking a while without level equivalent quests being available. Which I believe was a good pace, and reaching level 50 really felt like an accomplishment.

     

    Later after they added in the high level quests, leveling up to 50 in Vanguard became to quick IMHO.


    This post was edited by Wellspring at March 3, 2015 11:21 AM PST
    • 753 posts
    March 1, 2015 9:29 PM PST

    With a small dev team, I think it makes the most sense to go with a very slow leveling curve.  The will need time to fix issues not found until after release - as well as develop new stuff. 

     

    Beyond that though, I think it's important for the game and the genre itself.  Smedley over at the former SOE (believe it was him) had a fairly astute quote that went something like "developers cannot win the content race" - well, I would say that at least part of that is developers only giving players a few months of content for an average player that gets absolutely destroyed by the committed gamer.

     

    I played Wildstar at launch - and there were more than a few posts complaining that the game was broken, that the mechanics were too harsh, etc... because nobody had beaten the top boss yet... and it was just over a WEEK after launch.  The general tenor was that the game wasn't designed to let people racing for world firsts get their world firsts in a reasonable amount of time.

     

    That's the mentality that I hope Pantheon seeks to discourage - and - through a long curve, eliminate... no world first racing here folks... relax and enjoy the world!

     

    I think the leveling curve should take the maniacs among us at least 8 months or so (rather than the 2 to 4 weeks or so of today's games) - with the average player taking about a year.

     


    This post was edited by Wandidar at March 2, 2015 9:56 AM PST
    • 671 posts
    March 1, 2015 9:43 PM PST

    I think that levels should be real slow too.I hope in the development forums we can hash out the exact formula(s) (I'd like to play with exponentials..)

     

    More importantly, each level should be a true moment of achievement. DING!

     

     

    In early EQ, there was a major difference between a lvl 14 Warrior & lvl 17. Not so much these days...

     

     

     

    • 238 posts
    March 1, 2015 10:00 PM PST

    Some people will always be fast regardless of what the devs would like. Back in my prime mmo days I remember taking a week off from work for  the Big mmo releases just so I could put in something like 20 hour days. Why? because its a contest for people. Being first at anything feels good even if its a silly video game.

     

    Now I get the feeling that Pantheon dev team is really trying to slow things down with there "right of passage" system. If it makes sense, is fun, and not overly exploitable I applaud a system that slowing the pace down.

     

    A big part of this will be polish during beta. The worse thing is to release a game, have a host of people find some way to power to the end, then try to patch in ways to slow everyone else.


    This post was edited by Xonth at March 3, 2015 11:25 AM PST
    • 39 posts
    March 1, 2015 10:06 PM PST

    I'm definitely fine with a year or more.  What's the difference between being 50 in a day and then never leveling for a year.  Slow progression is better than no progression.

    • 31 posts
    March 1, 2015 10:21 PM PST

    and i think needing a group to be able to venture out and grind mobs adds for some downtime and slows down the leveling naturally.

    • 9115 posts
    March 1, 2015 10:22 PM PST

    We definitely share the same thoughts on a slow progression path for characters in Pantheon. I am not sure how long that path will take to achieve max level or what max level will be, it's very hard to put a rough timeframe on the leveling path since people play at such different paces and it is still too early to even take a guess but I can tell you that we are in favour of a slower paced leveling system.


    We have to remember too that there will always be groups of players who give the game their all and want to push and test themselves by leveling as fast as possible to see the end and get to parts of the game that they like the best and that is fine, we won't try to stop them too much but we will set a general slower pace and let you guy's progress along that path as slow or as quickly as you like.

    We will of course speak more about this later when we can get in and really flesh it out but we hear you and agree :)


    This post was edited by VR-Mod1 at March 2, 2015 9:57 AM PST
    • 9115 posts
    March 1, 2015 10:26 PM PST
    Ephemeros said:

    and i think needing a group to be able to venture out and grind mobs adds for some downtime and slows down the leveling naturally.

    There will be some mobs you can solo/duo/trio if you have the skills and correct gear/level requirements, we are not going to completely force you to group as we understand the importance of some down time but we will be rewarding grouping and encouraging it for the most part.

    We just do not want people to struggle to find a group and get frustrated then log out, instead we want there to be some things you can do to remain logged in and having fun, we can go into that a little bit later on but I just wanted to explain that a bit better for you.

    • 671 posts
    March 1, 2015 10:38 PM PST
    Wandidar said:

    With a small dev team, I think it makes the most sense to go with a very slow leveling curve.  The will need time to fix issues not found until after release - as well as develop new stuff. 

     

    Beyond that though, I think it's important for the game and the genre itself.  Smedley over at the former SOE (believe it was him) had a fairly astute quote that went something like "developers cannot win the content race" - well, I would say that at least part of that is developers only giving players a few months of content for an average player that gets absolutely destroyed by the committed gamer.

     

    I played Wildstar at launch - and there were more than a few posts complaining that the game was broken, that the mechanics were too harsh, etc... because nobody had beaten the top boss yet... and it was just over a WEEK after launch.  The general tenor was that the game wasn't designed to let people racing for world firsts get their world firsts in a reasonable amount of time.

     

    That's the mentality that I hope Pantheon seeks to discourage - and - through a long curve, eliminate... no world first racing here folks... relax and enjoy the world!

     

    I think the leveling curve should take the maniacs among us at least 8 months or so (rather than the 2 to 4 weeks or so of today's games) - with the average player taking about a year.

     

     

    I suppose Pantheon will crush a lot of testosterone filled egos.

     

    March 16th 1999 12:01....

    Within the next 2 hours I had died 10x... and still had not been able to solo a simple Wasp outside the Main gates of Felwithe... as a Wizard. I kept finding my corpse, looting it, then meding... & dieing.

     

    After that, I played an Opportunist & caught mobs chasing someone to guards and hopefully nuke it to death.

    And through trial & error, My Character advancements of You have become better at Evocation (16) and getting one less fizzle, allowed me to start to hone my skills. To learn mobs aggro radius, to learn which mobs are social, etc..  By the time I could reliably kill a mob, it is nearly a day later and I was not even lvl 3 yet...

     

    So that once I had my basics down & the newly efficient scheme of Root & Nuke...

    My confidence grew when I could reliably get off a few more spells, OR not loose too much mana due multiple fizzles, I knew I would be all right. And even though it took 11.5 minute to get full mana at level 5, I was self sufficient enough to step out into the wilderness alone. Saving up for bags & Rations allowed for extended play outside of the City, or gameplay that did NOT consist of "zone hugging".

     

    It was a liberating feeling to be able to actually head out into the wilderness and explore.

     

    But those Moments were not about game EXP... but actually stepping out into a wilderness, that the guards don't patrol...  HUGE wasps & Bees..!

    OMG.. what is that a firelight..?  an Orc camp...? HOLY SHYT!   You can hear them grobble'ing...

     

     

     

     

     

    • 67 posts
    March 1, 2015 11:53 PM PST

    It's worth noting, I think this was mentioned in the January podcast, that the 'rites of passage' system will encourage exploration and social interaction in order to move forward.  This system will slow down the leveling, which is good, but it does need to be done carefully.  Games that restrict leveling, or progressing too much can be very 'off-putting'  Destiny is a different genre, but I remember in the beta, and even currently, they restrict the max amount of glimmer, commendations, and marks (all currencies) you can earn in a given week, and the amount you can hold has a cap.  On top of this, you are limited to the amount of bounties (quests) you can do in a day.  You do reach max level on this game much quicker, which i think is intended, but why even have a leveling system if youre gonna reach max level in a day, and then it's just a gear grind.  Anyway......

     

    I think there will always be people who powerlevel or get to max rank quickly, which is fine 100% fine in my opinion, especially if it's done as a group. I know my first max rank char in VG took a considerable and acceptable amount of time, at least 6 months, probably more (i cant remember).  After that, though, I liked to start alts and try new classes.  I did NOT want to spend another 6months to a year leveling this char to max rank.  Since I had more game knowledge I lv'd faster, much faster, and I helped some noobs along the way by teaching them encounters/mechanics/some questing knowledge and etc.

     

    For the non-powerlevelers, when the game releases,  there should be more value, through game design, in not rushing to max level.  You spent more time exploring, crafting, harvesting, farming, questing, and etc....your character will be more well rounded and there will be value to this whether it be items obtained, wealth, and ability to do more on your own.  I mean, obviously if you take 2 years to level cause you derped around, sucked at the game, or whatever other reason you shouldnt be rewarded, and you shouldnt be b****ing about powerlevelers, and unfortunately, there will be those people and it will be our job to take them in a create a great community.

     

     

     

     

    • 288 posts
    March 2, 2015 1:38 AM PST

    I feel you need to design a game for an average of about 8 hours a day of play, now I know that's a lot for a lot of people, but my reasoning is this. 

     

    Most everyone wants to be that guy that can play for 8 hours a day or more, even if they can't, if it takes him 3 months to reach max level (a very small amount of time in the grand scheme of things, but a very large amount of time comparatively to any recent MMO's which take 3 days) then in 3 months he will be sitting there doing what every high level does, raiding, making money, working on gear and playing alts.  Everybody wants to be that guy, or at least most people like to be powerful in games, and he could be considered the goal character for everyone at the end. ( the journey may differ)

     

    The problem is that when it's that short, you can basically then guarantee that every 6 months you're going to need an expansion to keep him playing, and the carrot on a stick available for those casuals who want to be like him, because if like in WoW everyone maxes out, everyone is the same and there is nothing left to chase for 2 weeks after an expansion releases.. then people will stop logging in.

     

    It's all about the gains bros.  The gains should be substantial but far between, and they should never realistically end except for the elite(neckbeard) few.  A level should matter a lot, and it should be earned over at least a week or more.  50 levels 50 weeks minimum, at 8 hours a day average.  And importantly, please don't make it faster at low levels just because it's low levels, some of the best time playing a game is spent at low levels, do not make it easy just because it's traditional.

    • 610 posts
    March 2, 2015 4:06 AM PST

    And importantly, please don't make it faster at low levels just because it's low levels, some of the best time playing a game is spent at low levels, do not make it easy just because it's traditional.

     

    Cant stress how much I agree with this...Low levels are about learning so make them count! In games now you can be level 10 in an hour or so without out even trying.

    • 9 posts
    March 2, 2015 5:30 AM PST

    I think they should add a certain amount of time that has to pass before a character can move on to the next level. This amount of time could be dedicated at a class trainer that is higher level than the character. Quests could be implemented to find a mentor. A spell casting class could be required to find an item or book to study over a period of time before they can level up. This would slow down the level process and also make leveling interesting and meaning full. The time studying/researching or training would also be counted from time spent offline, but while online it is double exp.

     

    I'm thinking something like this:

    Q+M+T=Next Level

    Q=Quest experience
    M=Monster experience
    T=Time spent training/research

    • 201 posts
    March 2, 2015 6:28 AM PST

    I don't think we should restrict leveling by too much other things.  I also don't believe a year is really that realistic for leveling.  However I think making it difficult to level quickly would be nice.  As others said, there will always be players who can play a lot more then others.  But for example, there have been a few mmo's as of late that can level 10-20 levels in aday or two.  I remember it would take me a week or so of casual play to hit 1 level.


    This post was edited by Rivacom at March 2, 2015 6:37 AM PST
    • 753 posts
    March 2, 2015 7:13 AM PST

    In the end - the leveling curve should be roughly equivalent to a programming and development guesstimate swag...

     

    Meaning - they should ultimately try to guesstimate however long it will take them to create the first expansion, major content release, etc... - multiply that by 1.5, and then tune a level curve to that  - because in the MMO world, it's better to have people still working on content when you give them new content than it is to make them wait for it... making them wait means having them go try other games.

     

     

     

     

    • 724 posts
    March 2, 2015 7:51 AM PST
    Hieromonk said:
    But those Moments were not about game EXP... but actually stepping out into a wilderness, that the guards don't patrol...  HUGE wasps & Bees..!

    OMG.. what is that a firelight..?  an Orc camp...? HOLY SHYT!   You can hear them grobble'ing...

     

    Haha one of my remarkable moments in EQ was running through/hunting in the west karanas (the zone with the ramp up to highhold keep). There's that hill with spiders on it, but also the occasional hill giant. Normally not too bad. But this time...I was playing a human. It was night. AND it began to rain (thunderstorm). Soo...sight was literally null. And then I heard a hill giant stomp somewhere near. You can imagine my heart pumping lol. Luckily he didn't find me :)

    On topic: I don't care so much how long the total leveling up takes. But what I hope is that the leveling is not so top-heavy (low levels going by quickly, while high levels take ages). I'd rather have a more linear exp "curve", with the lower levels also taking a bit of time.

     

    • 1 posts
    March 2, 2015 8:52 AM PST

    We have all invested in Pantheon.  Mostly financially, but in the long run that will turn into an investment of time. If you think about why some of the older games are still around, and have a large player base, its because they require this investment.  Players have invested so much time, or money  that to leave and start over elsewhere would be more trouble than it is worth,  no one likes to give up on something we have devoted so much to.  The second observation I have made  is that a games funding is so incredible that regardless of pace, the players investment of time is still required in order to 'win'.  in other words, more content.    I believe that we are looking at a game that will fall into the former category.  Much like EQ and VG.   I would like to see the initial levels be achieved at a decent pace.  there is only so much to do in the starting area, and only so much enjoyment you can get from casting the same 3 spells i started with over and over again.    I like the model that has been implemented in the past, that the number of points needed to transverse the level is directly related to the level you are in.   EQ did this to the extreme, while VG seemed to be a little more forgiving.   of the two i enjoyed the pace of VG more than EQ,  but both of these games required the investment needed to get us hooked. 

    For myself, when I am loving a game, it is because there is an achievable goal, that i can reach in a acceptable amount of time.  in other words. when i log in to play I want to be able to measure my progress, by experience, quests completed, or new gear.   Short term goals, should be able to be set and they should be exciting enough to make the long haul, feel less like a "haul" and more like a path.  

     

     

    • 201 posts
    March 2, 2015 10:03 AM PST
    Shendorra said:

    We have all invested in Pantheon.  Mostly financially, but in the long run that will turn into an investment of time. If you think about why some of the older games are still around, and have a large player base, its because they require this investment.  Players have invested so much time, or money  that to leave and start over elsewhere would be more trouble than it is worth,  no one likes to give up on something we have devoted so much to.  The second observation I have made  is that a games funding is so incredible that regardless of pace, the players investment of time is still required in order to 'win'.  in other words, more content.    I believe that we are looking at a game that will fall into the former category.  Much like EQ and VG.   I would like to see the initial levels be achieved at a decent pace.  there is only so much to do in the starting area, and only so much enjoyment you can get from casting the same 3 spells i started with over and over again.    I like the model that has been implemented in the past, that the number of points needed to transverse the level is directly related to the level you are in.   EQ did this to the extreme, while VG seemed to be a little more forgiving.   of the two i enjoyed the pace of VG more than EQ,  but both of these games required the investment needed to get us hooked. 

    For myself, when I am loving a game, it is because there is an achievable goal, that i can reach in a acceptable amount of time.  in other words. when i log in to play I want to be able to measure my progress, by experience, quests completed, or new gear.   Short term goals, should be able to be set and they should be exciting enough to make the long haul, feel less like a "haul" and more like a path.  

     

     

    Well it has to scale.  There is only so much they can fit into each area.

    • 383 posts
    March 2, 2015 11:02 AM PST

    I'm in with the lot of you here. Though I'm probably on the extreme end of things. I feel that if it takes YEARS to get to max level, then leveling won't be the focus of ones game play. Instead the leveling will revolve around game play and socializing with your friends while you're doing other things like exploring and trying weird things. Leveling to max level shouldn't be in sight in my opinion. It should be something that is there, though not so easily attainable.

     

    Note: Sorry for the wall of text, this is an important subject for me much like the teleporters. If you make it to the end... +1 patience +1 communication lol!

     

    The most memorable game I have ever played aside from EQ with slow leveling was a MUD named Darkness Falls: The Crusade (pvp 3 realms what DAOC was created from). It was released in 1999 and closed in 2006. The max level for the game was 75 from the start. To my knowledge there were only a hand full of people that ever maxed leveled during the game's history. I myself played for 8hrs a day at least for 3 years and was only able to make it to level 73 before the game was closed down. Mostly due to myself dying all the time and losing millions of xp..... Anyway I digress...

     

    The reason why I found the game so memorable is due to the fact that I can still name those maxed level players. I remember a lot of the little guys too that were always around, though not hunting as much as some. I remember the hard times of dying and not being able to recover my corpse due to the hardness of the area. I remember the realm pulling together to help each other out. It was truly a good community for many years. Lots of memories full of fun for me over those three years. So many, that my brother and I tried to buy the game from Mythic, though they wouldn't let it go due to it sharing a lot of code with DAOC. Though in all honesty we weren't offering millions of dollars either, though it was pretty serious in that we hired a lawyer to negotiate with Mythic on our behalf.

     

    I hardly remember anyone's name in a game any more unless it's my wife, brother, or close friend. The reason is one, you almost never need anyone else, or two, your interaction with them is minimized so much that you don't care. Everyone joins a group for the quick 10-15 minute dungeon run etc... and then they all part ways. No one usually talks during the run and if they do it's probably to call someone slow or belittle them. Which seems to the common place in this new gaming community from my perspective.

    I looked up to the bigger guys as it was a huge goal to get to their level so to speak. The respect came from knowing their dedication to their class/character to attain max level in a game that took so much time. You looked up to them due to their wisdom in some cases on how to train your character and what worked and what they would train differently if they could go back and do it over. They were always on and most of them were helpful and friendly. If you or your group got in trouble you could always ask one of them for help and they were like mom or dad coming to rescue you after you fell off your bike. It sucked you fell off and scraped your knee, though they made it all better somehow. Also there wasn't an overabundance of people at the max level even after years of the game being up do to the fact that people burned out or life caught them, etc. There always seemed to be new players starting out and the bigger people always seemed to chip in and help them, due to the harsh nature of the game it was hard getting started like EQ. So while it may seem that the young people could never catch up... there were always new people to fill those ranks and the elders so to speak were there to help when needed.   

     

    Anyway that's enough of my rambling. Here are some reasons I want to give in support of a very slow leveling progression:

    - Slower the leveling the more likely it is that you will keep the same or similar group of friends while you level. You wont log out one night at level 10 with your group and wake up and 2 of them are 20-30 and in a completely different area. Your friends list will truly be a friends list.

    - Gear will mean something in the sense that you won't replace it for awhile.

    - Crafting will have a purpose, usually in most games the early level crafting is useless since you can out level the crafting in a matter of hours or minutes in some games. I remember a piece of banded armor a friend crafted for me that I used for a very long time. You don't see that now a days. By time you craft it and then go do a couple quests you either replaced it with a common drop or you out leveled it. Makes crafting worthless imo. Though a different topic I will start soon.

    - People won't be rushing to this magical "end game". This isn't a single player game and shouldn't be made to be "finished". It's a world for us to live in and socialize with our friends WHILE gaming. The game shouldn't start at max level. The game should be the game from level 1 all the way to max level.

    - There wouldn't be a need to rush content out the door and full of bugs, lack lust quests/story, etc.

     

    I'm sure there's more though I think some have spoken to some and I know others will speak to more. The only thing I'm afraid of is that people won't give it a chance and will miss out on meeting so many new people and experiencing games like they should be experienced.

     


    This post was edited by Niien at March 3, 2015 11:44 AM PST
    • 724 posts
    March 2, 2015 11:12 AM PST

    Some great points above. Still, care must be taken that a slower leveling game doesn't become tedious. There must be enough to do. Else the game becomes "lets see how many micro-meters I can move my exp bar today...yawn".

     

    • 15 posts
    March 2, 2015 11:12 AM PST

    I don't really recall any feeling of being rushed to endgame in EQ.  i think early eq had the perfect pace for leveling...plus the exp loss helped which in reality I appreciated because it made you play smarter and you always had that feeling of being on the edge.

    I don't remember any other games where people got excited and congratulated you when you leveled.  It was a real accomplishment..now a days you level after your first two quests and you don't even care.

    • 148 posts
    March 2, 2015 11:36 AM PST

    I like the idea of a slower leveling experience with max level not really being the end goal. I too never felt rushed in EQ to reach max level and would easily recognize the same people in /ooc and groups. You built a name for yourself and it meant something. In games now, there isn't much community building so people all just act rude. They rush to the end game and then complain when there's not enough content for them.

    I never really understood why when a new MMO would come out, people would rush to end and complain about a lack of content. They blew past all of the content that was in game to get there. 

    I wouldn't go past a year for leveling to max, and I wouldn't go under 8 months either.

    • 383 posts
    March 2, 2015 11:48 AM PST

    Jimm0thy, I agree that making a name for yourself was very important and alive in EQ. Though not so much in today's games.

    • 39 posts
    March 2, 2015 11:49 AM PST

    This it totally hardcore and probably unrealistic, but it would be cool if the developers made it take, for a casual gamer, about as long it took them to make the game to get to level 50.  Again, incredibly hardcore, but that would be a way to finally balance content with prolonged play.  Hardcore power levelers that it made it 50 before the casual gamers could entertain themselves with the usual endgame.