dorotea - "But we are a source of money not wisdom."
Whether we are game devs or not, all the VIPs and PA Testers and the myriad Alphas and intent sideline observers have in combination, centuries of gaming "Wisdom", having been at ground zero as proverbial empires rise and fall.
dorotea said:We have urged them many times over many years to avoid scope creep. We have frequently pointed out that the perfect is the enemy of the good and they should be shooting for the good - in a timely manner. But we are a source of money not wisdom.
Sadly I do not think this boils down to scope creep like it was with Vanguard:SOH. There were fundamental design decisions that ended up crippling this project. I was worried about using Unity from the start for example, and some of the total redesigns of various systems showed me they did not have their act together. The most recent change with the art style was the most stunning to me however. I honestly did not expect that!! And now that I know there is some kind of minigame they are focusing on it makes more sense.
I do have a burning question that it appears no amount of ointment will soothe...Where are the rest of the classes? How in the world would they proceed with a mini-game when it has been oh-so-long and no more classes?
Blah blah blah, networking, art, engine whatever. I can only assume (and if that makes an ass out of u and me, so be it) they will not be making it into the mini-game. But really, where are they?
p.s. /hug dorotea
Vandraad said:Thunderleg said:I do have a burning question that it appears no amount of ointment will soothe...Where are the rest of the classes?
Its the question many of us have asked of VR over and over for nearly 2 years now. The respone is this:
Yes, to me this was a good sign (one of many) that there were problems. I took repeated "class refreshs" as an insult to my intelligence when so many classes had nothing. Classes that are supposedly dependent on each other (don't get me started on this part VR abandon this idea long ago) would need to be developed in combination with each other. Get the basics for the 12 starting classes done THEN build on them from there... don't keep redoing the same class over and over with no baseline for the other classes.
how many times have they "refreshed" the Shaman and Rouge? They showcased them 5-6 years ago, now a class refresh 3 months ago.
They have been spinning their wheels and going nowhere for years!
Vandraad said:Thunderleg said:I do have a burning question that it appears no amount of ointment will soothe...Where are the rest of the classes?
Its the question many of us have asked of VR over and over for nearly 2 years now. The respone is this:
Yep that was the response. But at least we will have a lot of zones, gliding, pets, temp.mounts, boats, range attacks, animal training and warrior/paladin.druid very soon now, right? Right? ...Oh.
The question Ben Dean should be answering is this: If Pantheon cannot monetize 247 and must continue with the current trickle of incoming money, what is the "currently projected" for finally releasing this game? You used those exact words yourself, Ben Dean, "currently projected" and that means you do know how much longer it will take with the money you have but you wont tell anybody. You'll continue to use these vague statements in the hopes of placating your possible playerbase to trust you a little bit longer. To hope a little longer, to grasp at straws a little longer all without being truthful and transparent. But I know you. You wont answer. You cannot answer because to answer it would admit to everyone out there that you are many many years away from release that your marketing skills, your marketing attempts have all been futile, ineffective and have actually hampered the progress of this game.
dorotea said:For long years I have supported VR's reluctance to give a projection, noting (accurately) that they have always been wrong when they did do such. Very wrong.
That was then - this is now. I second the motion to have them give a specific projection.
I am with you. It always seemed wise to me that they did not publish their projections. But if they are going to use those projections to justify utilizing backer funds to release a game that is NOT Pantheon Rise of the Fallen then they need to release those projections. It is no argument for them to say "it will take a long time without this new game" unless the define what a long time is. I've said this elsewhere, without publishing their projections we have no way of keeping them honest or judging the success of the decisions they are making. If they are going to use our money to release a game that is NOT Pantheon Rise of the Fallen I think we deserve to know what we are getting for it. Are we getting a year, two years? How can we ever know without knowing what these projections are. We funded, in part, 247. We deserve to know what we're getting for it.
So, how about we take matters into our hands here, being the investors and pledgers? Without us, they project would not be here. We can't legally force them to answer tough questions (in the US id say we could,... but not in any other country), but we can sure as hell make sure the world knows about a lack of answers, should VR opt to go the hard route.
Some of us certainly got connections, or even have a big audience themselves. I mean, I hate this kinda pushing, but I am also really sick of the behavior VR is showing. The lack of respect to their "income stream". They keep letting us know, that only those with very deep pockets get ANY answers whatsoever, if that. Well, we could let them know that we don't accept that anymore. On good terms at first of course. Give them a chance to deliver the wanted and needed answers up to a deadline we could set as a community. After that, all is open and we could just put up a poll on how to proceed as a community.
Maybe I can offload my pledge at a discount
Rattenmann said:So, how about we take matters into our hands here, being the investors and pledgers? Without us, they project would not be here. We can't legally force them to answer tough questions (in the US id say we could,... but not in any other country), but we can sure as hell make sure the world knows about a lack of answers, should VR opt to go the hard route.
Some of us certainly got connections, or even have a big audience themselves. I mean, I hate this kinda pushing, but I am also really sick of the behavior VR is showing. The lack of respect to their "income stream". They keep letting us know, that only those with very deep pockets get ANY answers whatsoever, if that. Well, we could let them know that we don't accept that anymore. On good terms at first of course. Give them a chance to deliver the wanted and needed answers up to a deadline we could set as a community. After that, all is open and we could just put up a poll on how to proceed as a community.
Xerion said:
Unfortunately there is no true enforcement mechanism for listening to a community other than word of mouth, but that is a pretty powerful thing in and of itself.
Well, exactly. Some members of the Pantheon community have multi million people followings, active streams etc. COHH is not the only one among these. Then there is press as well. Granted in the gaming world, press is usually less of an issue compared to a streamer,... but they bounce off of each other pretty well.
Basically, the community got Pantheon where it is now (wherever that may be), but I am also sure the community can break it as well. At least in any commercial sense. If they refuse to give a full and clear picture of a roadmap, milestones and projected timelines, after 10 years of taking our money... well. That is a sad story, but still the only thing we can do, apart from keeping silent for another 10 years.
I am not one for doing such a thing usually, but id be willing to put my weight behind this, IF the community decides it wants to go that route. Would have to be an at least semi decent poll with a non trivial amount of votes cast. After all: We, as in the pledgers wanting answers, may very well be the vocal minority here. And I am not gonna **** on a project, if the broad mass is not behind it.
Obviously all this would have to wait at least to the next producers letter. After all they could have decided to finally lift the veil of PR plunder and we get a honest take on the state of the game, without too many PR buzz words. Not lost all hope just yet. ;-)
(Landmark was the deathknell of EQN)
I followed Pantheon since before Brad's first failed kick starter. I made huge contributions to support Pantheon Rise of The Fallen.
I feel completely misled and lied to. I wish I could be angry.....like REALLY angry, but I'm just sad.
fazool said:This is the primary reason VR should ditch the PR speeches and start getting back on the train that we all boarded together all those years ago. It is saddening how many people feel mislead and lied to. Not something you just hear from me, or Fazool. You keep reading that left right and center, across all possible networks and social media.I feel completely misled and lied to. I wish I could be angry.....like REALLY angry, but I'm just sad.
The leaked stuff is not a real issue. The lost trust is. The negative feelings of people supporting the development for 10 years now. Granted most did not hear about Pantheon that soon, but some of us did. And even if it was "only" 8-9 years... how can the sentiment change not make the company agry and mad about themselves? How can this not lead to a crazy urge to set things straight? I don't get that...
Rattenmann said:fazool said:This is the primary reason VR should ditch the PR speeches and start getting back on the train that we all boarded together all those years ago. It is saddening how many people feel mislead and lied to. Not something you just hear from me, or Fazool. You keep reading that left right and center, across all possible networks and social media.I feel completely misled and lied to. I wish I could be angry.....like REALLY angry, but I'm just sad.
The leaked stuff is not a real issue. The lost trust is. The negative feelings of people supporting the development for 10 years now. Granted most did not hear about Pantheon that soon, but some of us did. And even if it was "only" 8-9 years... how can the sentiment change not make the company agry and mad about themselves? How can this not lead to a crazy urge to set things straight? I don't get that...
Agreed,
In many ways this is similar to the Unity monetization announcement. Even if VR backtracks all of it, the problem is they were misguided enough to ever make these decisions in the first place. It just makes you wonder what else is coming down the pipeline for Vangua....ahem.....Pantheon. What "lost dungeons of norrath" patch do they have in store for us next?
Interesting...
This is like EverQuest Next all over again...
"we're going to use this toolset we made (Landmark) and turn it into its own thing, and it will totally help us fund EQN and get it out quicker"... 3 years later, pull the rug out and go... "um yeah this isnt fun so we are cancelling both projects".
The longer this thing goes past Brads passing the further we get from the vision part of visionary realms...
Xerion said:My honest opinion is I would rather them SCALE BACK the game from systems like environment etc., release the game, get people playing it and then build on it over time. I would rather have a simpler version of the game that we can build it into then another game mode in development. Heck even if they released the game with starter zones and areas, use that to monetize and build on it. It is clear to me SCOPE CREEP has become a major problem for the game. For example, take out the environmental hazards and add them in later. Those are neat, but we can deal with those later. My personal advice to the company DIAL BACK the scope and scale, release the game in a smaller state, get money through there, build a community and build on the game.
I've been saying this for years...
Things that should come out in expansions IMO:
Perception system
Progeny system
Environmental attunement system
Things they should be focusing on instead IMO:
Classes and abilities
Sensible quests
Fun/engaging combat mechanics/strategies
Those 3 core things alone take several years 'to do well' but if they are done well, everything else is just bonus - trying to do anything more is going to take away from the core things.
Scope Creep is killing us - we don't even have all of the class mechanics yet! :'(
Tried reading the original post aloud to myself but all i keep hearing myself say is "EQNext and Landmark will be developed together and Landmark will offer an exciting new game that will help us test the voxel physics and build out the mechanics for the EQNext world."
What a fantastic joke this game has become. It'd be funnier if we weren't the punchline.
"And THEN we told them we weren't ending Pantheon development... HAHAHAHA. That we'd reach a WIDER AUDIENCE, BWAHAHAHAHAH haha oh man, wow hahahaha"
Atarius said:
Tried reading the original post aloud to myself but all i keep hearing myself say is "EQNext and Landmark will be developed together and Landmark will offer an exciting new game that will help us test the voxel physics and build out the mechanics for the EQNext world."
What a fantastic joke this game has become. It'd be funnier if we weren't the punchline.
"And THEN we told them we weren't ending Pantheon development... HAHAHAHA. That we'd reach a WIDER AUDIENCE, BWAHAHAHAHAH haha oh man, wow hahahaha"