I made a comment in Kilsin's "Community Opinion - End Game" post that has had me thinking for the last few days. Why isn't end game content, like raids and epic loot, not present in most games until the end game? Is it better that way?
It feels to me like most MMO's these days gate the content many of us really want to experience behind many hours, if not days, of in-game played time. I know people play these games for a plethora of reasons, such as crafting, socializing, achievements, exploration, etc. However, there is a big portion of us that play for the grouping experiences found in these massively multiplayer online games.
So, at what level do you believe raids should first be introduced in an MMO? Should they be kept as max level content? Should they be available as soon as regular dungeons are? If they are to be available pre-end game, how spread out should they be level-wise? (ex. at lvl 15, 30, 45, 50)
Feastycentral said:So, at what level do you believe raids should first be introduced in an MMO? Should they be kept as max level content? Should they be available as soon as regular dungeons are? If they are to be available pre-end game, how spread out should they be level-wise? (ex. at lvl 15, 30, 45, 50)
Well we do know that VR has always planned to include multi-group balanced encounters throughout all the level ranges. Multi-group content is usually what people mean when they say 'Raid' content. Therefore we know that regardless of our personal opinions on the matter, Pantheon WILL have Raid content throughout all level ranges.
Now to answer your question regarding my personal thoughts on the matter.
I would hope that we will see multi-group content rather early in the game. As soon as you'd expect players to start forming groups I would hope that there will be some targets which require multiple groups to successfully take down.
In the June 2022 stream (Monk Combat updates) Adam 'Tehom' Mostel was answering a question about early game solo'ing vs grouping.
Tehom said: "In general the level that we expect to be kind of solo-able is the 1 to 10 range, but if you haven't listened to it the previous developer roundtable I actually go into a little bit more detail about our expectations for solo-ability, so even though level 10 is what we're targeting as like our big grouping level the solo content will taper off and become more and more difficult as you go kind of creep up to and beyond that point."
So personally I would hope that starting right at levels 10-15 we will see some encounters available that will require more than 1 full group (so more than 6) of level 10-15 players to take them down. They should be balanced such that these players at this level can survive fighting them; ie not hit so hard that a level 10 Tank gets insta-killed faster than a Healer(s) can keep them up. But should be tough enough that they require the multi-groups due to things like the size of the enemy max HP pool or other mechanics that would require more players to succeed.
I wouldn't expect there to be full dungeons or zones filled with multi-group 'Raid' content at these early levels, but the encounters should still exist in various places and throughout the full leveling curve.
No specific raids until max level - will either end up seldom used or farmed by a single group of higher levels dependent on loot.
However, as stated above some stronger enemies that need more than one group fine - especially if random rare pops and wanderers.
Am thinking the Sand Giants in the commonlands!
GoofyWarriorGuy said:So personally I would hope that starting right at levels 10-15 we will see some encounters available that will require more than 1 full group (so more than 6) of level 10-15 players to take them down. They should be balanced such that these players at this level can survive fighting them; ie not hit so hard that a level 10 Tank gets insta-killed faster than a Healer(s) can keep them up. But should be tough enough that they require the multi-groups due to things like the size of the enemy max HP pool or other mechanics that would require more players to succeed.
I wouldn't expect there to be full dungeons or zones filled with multi-group 'Raid' content at these early levels, but the encounters should still exist in various places and throughout the full leveling curve.
This makes a lot of sense. I left the idea of what a raid is open because it could be an open world boss or dungeon style. I agree with the mechanics you described, that would make it fun no matter the level range it's meant for.
I do think there needs to be a way to level-gate it somehow so it's not farmed or abused by higher lvls, making the challenge irrelevant once more people get higher level characters.
Vandraad said:24 level-1 character raid on the Rat King.
LFG please!
Galden said:No specific raids until max level - will either end up seldom used or farmed by a single group of higher levels dependent on loot.
However, as stated above some stronger enemies that need more than one group fine - especially if random rare pops and wanderers.
Am thinking the Sand Giants in the commonlands!
What if somehow they were made relevant and inaccessible to higher levels? Maybe if common loot was upgradeable every level, dungeon boss loot lasted 4-5 levels, and raid loot lasted 8-10 levels? The numbers are arbitrary, just an idea.
Mordecai said: The Rat King huh? We talking’ Master Splinter or Theo Von for that title?
I'd love to fight Splinter!
Jobeson said: I would say 45 and 50. Low level raids are just slaughtered by high levels or force high levels to ignore them through mechanics. Level limits is an odd issue for open world to deal with well. A lvl 45 raid would just be viewed as an easy raid more people could do.
I think that would be a great alternative to having lower level raid content.
I would love for raids at a range of levels. This would have to have special rules to prevent farming. Lockouts like Nagefen in EQ are terrible, instead of baring low level characters, you bar high levels. The level balance system from GW2 would be better. High level characters are deleveled while in the dungeon to a set cap, they are slightly more powerful than a lowbie, without being over powering.
"Why isn't end game content, like raids and epic loot, not present in most games until the end game"
This reflects an approach common to many MMOs that I hope Pantheon will not follow. An approach making raids more important and more rewarding than ordinary group content.
Pantheon is dedicated to making group play the heart of the game. They have indicated, although this may not be their current thinking, that both solo play and raiding would be in the game but the great bulk of their efforts would be dedicated to group play. Not solo, which is very well understood, but also not raids.
I thought this made a huge amount of sense. Group play, after all, is much more difficult for the players. Other than organization and control.
High difficulty group content requires a full group. Every character needs to be at least reasonably well equipped and familiar with his or her class and role. If even a single character is notably inferior or is played poorly or goes afk for the boss fight the result is likely to be a wipe.
Even a high difficulty raid invariably builds more leeway in. If one or two characters are weak and being carried - the raid can still succeed. If one or two outright aren't even there for the boss fight (e.g. crash and cannot get back) the raid can still succeed. The pressure on those organizing the raid is indeed high but individual players have more room to do an average or even below average job and still see the raid succeed and the high-end loot appear in the lootbox they click.
Knowing, that info will be eventually available via 3rd party sites; I think the use of foreshadowing is still effective and fun. The example is the Muglwump monster from a legacy game. it had some characteristics of higher level dragons and acted like them, but was a lower level in a low to mid level cave(dungeon) I think it was level 25 in a 13-17 approx level zone. One group couldn't quite kill it, but 2 could if they were good, maybe 1.5 grps if they were tight and had some quested armor. Most at that time had patchwork or banded armor and fine steel maybe 1 magic infused item. Even after people knew about it and said- hey it rampages just like a dragon, or hey it has strike-through just like a...- it was considered good experience for newbies to try something over their reach, and it dropped good stuff for thier levels. It looked like a 2 legged tadpole, so it was deceptively cute-ish, too.
Feastycentral said:Why isn't end game content, like raids and epic loot, not present in most games until the end game? Is it better that way?
I think there are several reasons for this:
I personally favor having this content at multiple levels. I spend much of my time leveling up and playing alts and I feel the best way to make a successful game is to make the whole game fun.
The best way to retain the largest number of players is to make every level a joy to experience and to create so much class, race, build, and location diversity that each new character is a fun, fresh experience.
2 other reasons:
Gear earned from low level encounters is often replaced faster than it should be. Spending hours/ days/weeks to get gear that'll only last a week or month is not a wise time investment. VR has stated they plan for best equipment to not always come from highest level encounters.
Getting 10+ like minded people to spend several hours on a goal that will likely only yield gear for a select few is difficult before end game. People usually plan very efficient paths to max level, not detours through low level time sinks. Getting 10+ people that actually know how to play well and fill the correct roles can make the situation worse. There won't be many guilds staying in low level raid range for long. Pug raids suffer from poor attendance, poor people skills, innattention (or plain leeching) and people leaving mid raid (or after getting what they came for).
Vandraad said:24 level-1 character raid on the Rat King.
You know something is wrong when I agree with Van. Or he's joking.
Either way, yeah. Level 1 would be good with me!
There should be emphasis all the way on group and multi-group content from as soon as possible.
Realistically, that might be level 10, but I'd LOVE to see the mess that would be level 1 raids!
Good related vid here
While I don't think that raids should be as important as regular groups - or give gear that is as good - I think that there is a place for raids just as there is a place for solo play.
So I will jump on the level 1 or maybe level 10 bandwagon.
A low level raid need not be the elaborate thing we are used to from maximum level raids. It can simply be a major boss - patterned on a "world boss" in some other games - possibly outdoors or in a cave and not even in a dungeon.
If it doesn't give especially good drops but is there just for the fun of doing it (and maybe a title) that won't be unbalancing. And mechanics can be put in to avoid abuse or higher levels stealing the kill or making the fight trivial. For example no one over boss level +x being allowed to hurt the boss.
I have promoted this topic as part of my CM content; please continue the discussion and have fun! :)
"Community Debate - At what level should raids be made available? Join in on this community-created post and let us know your thoughts below: https://seforums.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/13950/at-what-level-should-raids-be-made-available #MMORPG #indiegames"
WalkingWaste said: I’d love to see lower level raids starting at 25-30 unlock some cool artifacts/skills/items/acclimation gear that allow you to go back to lower level zones and experience areas you couldn’t get to, but you can now thanks to the lower level raid loot. Level 45+ raids doing the same as well.
I reiterate this. The hard part for me is the pace of leveling. It does not seem a wise time productivity measure for the dev team to spend a lot of resources for content that players will only do once or twice. The rewards from multiple group content not at max level would need to be so good that slowing your experience gain for a few nights is worth what you gain, or it needs to be a lot of fun and a raid tool allows all members of the raid to share experience where the evening doesnt seem wasted for players that dont get rewards.
If there are spells/abilities, mastery points, quest items for epic rewards, etc. where the average player will spend enough time in this encounters to justify the development time then I would love to see it.
I M H O
Two-group raids should start no later than level 15, would like to see level 10. Every other game mechanic us usually revealed early, then gets more complex as time goes on. There should be mobs that require more DPS for a single group, requiring nothing extravagant. This gets people familiar with how to raid, the mechanics and menus. The sad fact is that probably a majority of people who have played an MMO have never done a raid. It's not common for casual gamers which makes up the bulk of subs. So, any way you can train these folks early and show them the coolness, the better retention you will have to max lvl. And if we could train players early in Pantheon to interact the way VR is hoping they would (there's another group camping near us, let's go invite them to join us to take these way harder rooms and boss), training raiding early is necessary. It will have to have some very intuitive UI so people dont get scared of it.
I think new players are already dealing with enough - UI familizarization, immersion in to the world itself, basic mechanics, character uniqueness - that it can be said they are already learning the game in stages at low levels, and that adding organized raid content on top of that is a bit much.
Generally speaking, raiding is the most complex interaction of all mmorpg dynamics. You need to know your own character thoroughly to know how to make decisions on actions in critical situations. You need to know how to group and how to rely on your group mates for things you cannot do. You need to then know how to coordinate multiple groups to effect a successful outcome in what are often some of the most mechanically complex game encounters out there. (obviously, a level 10 raid wouldn't be as complex as a level 50 raid, but the point remains about the compounding effect of game mechanics)
Early game raids are something that only people who have raided want. Think about that for a second.
I would think around 20th level more a less players will understand their rolls in a group along with the pros and cons. Also most if not all skills spells along with masterys should be coming along nicely as weel as knowing mana and resource management. Think this is a good time for a whole new twist and raids. ✌
Depends,
My voice is to keep raids for Max level. EQ2 (and I am sure other games) had raids available for all levels. The non-max level raids were touched 1-2 times (if that) and then forgotten about. When Guilds are getting ready for raids they would rather spend 2-3 hours getting XP to get to max level than spend 2-3 hours on a low-level raid where the gear is worthless after 10 hours of XP.
Then we add level differences. A Guild has 50 people. After a week of grinding XP is everybody in the level range for the low-level raid? Should people not gain XP so the Guild can attempt a raid boss for max level 20's?
I would rather Devs spend their time making the best raids possible at max level instead of spending time for raids for lower-level content that will be bypassed for most.