Another issue to stir the pot...
We still don't know any specifics about faction mechanics except that there will be some. The lore side has already began building multiple faction groups in small areas that could become dizzying if spread equally the world over. And I personally like that.
There is an issue that comes with that, however. The more you break into factions, there more people don't like you and the more facilities you must create to be accessible. If you choose to align with BRK against Thronefast, sure, you could always go to a city somewhere across the continent or another continent that doesn't operate off of Thronefast factions, but you should probably put some vendors, crafting stations, etc. at BRK. Can you align with Gadai? North Tusk Orcs? Wraiths? It's a lot of unnecessary inclusions, many may say. But I believe it would make the gameplay much more immersive and fulfilling with the faction system.
And it doesn't even have to be that bad. I believe KOS should be saved for the worst of the worst faction. Vendors should have tiered amounts depending on your faction. You've killed four of five guards, nobody knows your face around Thronefast, but your unpleasant attitude toward rule of law and the crown may turn off vendors to you, making their goods more expensive to you. If you kill three hundred guards and some nobles in Thronefast, now you are notorious. There should be some way to mask your identity to get in to trade with shadier vendors at higher prices though. These mechanics are just some math and hardly any coding and could be implemented fairly easily I would suspect.
I say spend some extra time making faction fun and meaningful and deep. Give me some crafting stuff and vendors at BRK so I can hang there with my homies.
I deleted all that I wrote and am just going with - the more the merrier.
(OK, maybe just one comment...)
Faction-centric content is the gift that can keep on giving. The heavy lifting was done up front and a metric ton of bells and whistles and shinnies can be tacked on, ad Infinitum.
I like it when games only give/take faction if there are survivors who "saw" you do it. It just makes no sense that stealthily murdering someone in their sleep with nobody else around, or sniping someone from an unseen vantage point should effect your faction. You could still collect "proof" of those kills, like scalps or insignia's or something to gain faction later, but kill=faction is a lazy system. Other good ways of increasing faction would be completing quests, giving bribes, saving one-side in a conflict or battle, letting one member of a group you killed get away, hiring an npc official to accompany your party and record your deeds, etc..
This dovetails with how "social" mobs act in different games. I also dislike how all "social" mobs immediately know where you are the moment you do anything to any of them. I prefer games where you can use stealth to attack a mob where they "raise the alarm" and start searching, but may or may not find you.
Telepath said:I like it when games only give/take faction if there are survivors who "saw" you do it. It just makes no sense that stealthily murdering someone in their sleep with nobody else around, or sniping someone from an unseen vantage point should effect your faction. You could still collect "proof" of those kills, like scalps or insignia's or something to gain faction later, but kill=faction is a lazy system. Other good ways of increasing faction would be completing quests, giving bribes, saving one-side in a conflict or battle, letting one member of a group you killed get away, hiring an npc official to accompany your party and record your deeds, etc..
This dovetails with how "social" mobs act in different games. I also dislike how all "social" mobs immediately know where you are the moment you do anything to any of them. I prefer games where you can use stealth to attack a mob where they "raise the alarm" and start searching, but may or may not find you.
I get what you mean about "survivors who saw", but it is just an analog for reality, like much of a MMORPG is.
In anything like reality, each kill wouldn't automatically 'ding' faction cost/gain, but in anything like reality there would often be non-combatants hanging around (or more likely hiding as you kill their combatant family members) and, yes, while reputation with a faction wouldn't just 'clock up' instantly per kill it would be gradually gained almost without you knowing why or how.
It's like XP. 'Experience' isn't gained in tiny measurable chunks with every kill, but we don't expect a game to keep track of more 'meaningful' experiences like when you use a new skill effectively or discover a new aspect of a monster's behaviour when you fight it. XP gained per kill is just an analog to generally gaining 'experience' and progressing your adventuring profession in a combat-centric world as you 'adventure'.
So too faction. Yeah, a little bit every kill isn't realistic, but it sure is easier than working out one big faction hit when you do kill someone and perhaps another enemy of the same faction was in loine of sight, looking that way, and in a position to pass on word of the deed to an NPC of the same faction and for that word to spread, etc, etc.
The little bit every kill works fine if you just think of it as every kill raising the chance of you being 'noticed' a tiny bit and then average out that effect.
Of course, the taking of scalps/insignias works *on top of* that system, for positive faction (or negative, if you perhaps throw them at an NPC of the 'scalped' faction!)
I agree that faction should be important - this makes a game far more interesting and complex. When games downplay the previously important faction relationships and consequences, as Rift did, is when I tend to leave. Oh yes that ultimate enemy who was the embodyment of evil is now just a minor ally after the next expansion drives me away as fast as anything can.
It should have real meaning not just a veneer. Becoming kill-on-sight in some places not just being hit with (gasp) a 10% increase in merchant prices. Being unable to visit a bank or use an auction house/broker. Being unable to deal with merchants other than possibly a black market. Being unable to access mail. Not something to incur lightly.
Telepath is self-evidently correct. An action no one knows about should not logically affect faction. Though a gate guard at a city entrance asking a few questions and truth-reading you as you answered would be a good way to make even secret actions count against you.
dorotea said:It should have real meaning not just a veneer. Becoming kill-on-sight in some places not just being hit with (gasp) a 10% increase in merchant prices. Being unable to visit a bank or use an auction house/broker. Being unable to deal with merchants other than possibly a black market. Being unable to access mail. Not something to incur lightly.
I like it, but like all of it. I think it's important to have all of those in-game. And I like the idea of guards stopping you while walking into a town if you have faction at a certain level and if you are not concealing yourself good enough and asking you questions. That's pretty fun.
I agree with faction changes feeling more realistic than a simple 'murder counter'. It should have some basic logic to it but not strive to be too realistic.
Even with no witnesses, if they see you elsewhere in their territory with a giant axe and then find Bob murdered with axe damage, their should be some faction hit. This should be diminished if you aren't in the area long, if the fight is fast, and if you hide the body.
This can be roughly programmed like this:
If witness within X range, faction loss is baseline.
If killed NPC is notable (like a captain, a priest, etc), increase faction loss by X %.
If no witness within X range, faction loss is reduced or zero, based on RNG modified by how long the fight took, how long you were in the area, and if you disposed of the body.
This creates a whole 'commando' strategy which could be quite fun. Imagine having to eliminate a specific target without ruining your faction. "Hide Corpse" would make for a very fun Rogue ability.
I've been saying it for years that for every societal NPC faction that is out there, you should be able to move that faction in both directions through time and effort. The old adage "The enemy of my enemy is my friend" comes into play. You want to be friends with the Orcs? You find out who they hate and go do things which hurt them. This does not mean just mass killing of low level NPCs, but performing specific tasks given to you by those Orcs, tasks which get ever more difficult the more you want to raise that faction. The consequences though is that your faction you want to raise should go up slower than the faction you are ruining, putting you in a position where you're hated by both for some period of time.
I do believe that some factions with whom you are KOS, say undead or those who just mindlessly hate everyone and everything, shouldn't be moveable. But for the rest? Faction should be a complex, interconnected, web where you can make deliberate decisions to adjust them in the direction you want but with the understanding that as some factions go up others must go down. You cannot be friendly with everyone.
But why would you want friendly faction with Orcs? Access to special tradeskill materials? Special tradeskill stations? Unique recipies/schematics? Unique questlines? The possibilities are quite endless. We just need the option to explore those possibilities.
Counterfleche said:Even with no witnesses, if they see you elsewhere in their territory with a giant axe and then find Bob murdered with axe damage, their should be some faction hit. This should be diminished if you aren't in the area long, if the fight is fast, and if you hide the body.
You sound somewhat... experienced... in this sort of activity.
I have a few business opportunities I'd be interested in discussing with you privately.
I'm ok with telepathic faction only because- and I realize I am being very immersive for lack of a better word- the townsfolk and guards are not static in their positions, ideally. They leave their post and go home and chat with whomever on the way and maybe tell stories about the one armed dwarf that killed soandso. And that spreads until everyone or most everyone hears it.
The only QoL thing I would like for faction is to be able to know, maybe with the Perception log/diary/personal storybook? (<- speak of it this way to sell it to newbies to MMO?) to know whereabouts I am relative to a certain faction. Not exactly (how many faction point to get to amiable), but generally (still dubious, darn) and to have new factions available to be seen once I have interacted with them. As spice, it would be neat if I discover one faction and it's status appears and then see a tree out to 3 hidden factions that I dont know/have not discovered that this faction is tied/linked to.
Counterfleche said:
Even with no witnesses, if they see you elsewhere in their territory with a giant axe and then find Bob murdered with axe damage, their should be some faction hit. This should be diminished if you aren't in the area long, if the fight is fast, and if you hide the body.
Two things; first relating to the quote.
First. One of the things that came to mind while reading this (and I love a deep, rich faction element), is the idea that this might become problematic if a group of players have set up camp somewhere slaughtering mobs for hours and hours.
Second (and not related to quoting you Counterfleche), is that I hope faction is not realized in an ultimately two-dimensional paradigm where the goal of raising faction is only to get a spell, or a weapon, or something and nothing beyond that.
Second (and not related to quoting you Counterfleche), is that I hope faction is not realized in an ultimately two-dimensional paradigm where the goal of raising faction is only to get a spell, or a weapon, or something and nothing beyond that.
Just wanted to point out that CP acknowledged this was not the case in the Cohh Stream from a couple days ago. Beyond that, it can give access to locations, open up trade to different NPCs, affect what Perception pings you receive, and the types of information you can get from speaking to NPCs.
One more very interesting idea which would be very fun:
Jothany said:Counterfleche said:Even with no witnesses, if they see you elsewhere in their territory with a giant axe and then find Bob murdered with axe damage, their should be some faction hit. This should be diminished if you aren't in the area long, if the fight is fast, and if you hide the body.
You sound somewhat... experienced... in this sort of activity.
I have a few business opportunities I'd be interested in discussing with you privately.
/looks around the room suspiciously.
OakKnower said:One of the things that came to mind while reading this (and I love a deep, rich faction element), is the idea that this might become problematic if a group of players have set up camp somewhere slaughtering mobs for hours and hours.
Wouldn't it be great when a party sets up camp and stays 'too long' in that spot if suddenly, a large number of the local mobs that the party has been farming came charging out of nowhere at the group, enough to be a significant threat of a wipe but not guaranteed to win IF the party is well organized and practiced at teamwork.
Jothany said:Wouldn't it be great when a party sets up camp and stays 'too long' in that spot if suddenly, a large number of the local mobs that the party has been farming came charging out of nowhere at the group, enough to be a significant threat of a wipe but not guaranteed to win IF the party is well organized and practiced at teamwork.
I would love to see that kind of mechanic. It would really add to the risk and make for some very memorable moments. This is one of the best ideas I've read in a long time.
Jothany said:OakKnower said:One of the things that came to mind while reading this (and I love a deep, rich faction element), is the idea that this might become problematic if a group of players have set up camp somewhere slaughtering mobs for hours and hours.
Wouldn't it be great when a party sets up camp and stays 'too long' in that spot if suddenly, a large number of the local mobs that the party has been farming came charging out of nowhere at the group, enough to be a significant threat of a wipe but not guaranteed to win IF the party is well organized and practiced at teamwork.
Define 'too long' and then get everyone who plays to accept that time and then it could be a thing. Otherwise no. Just because I have the time to spend many hours in a give spot trying to obtain a specific item I should not be penalized because some gimmicky mechanic says I've been there too long. That's garbage.
Vandraad said:Define 'too long' and then get everyone who plays to accept that time and then it could be a thing.
"too long" is the easiest thing in the world to define. It is EXACTLY as long as VR decides is too long. No one else has to agree.
That's garbage.
I would argue with you, but even I have to acknowledge that you absolutely know more about posting garbage on these forums than almost anyone else here.
@Counterfleche Thanks
Benonai said:Just wanted to point out that CP acknowledged this was not the case in the Cohh Stream from a couple days ago. Beyond that, it can give access to locations, open up trade to different NPCs, affect what Perception pings you receive, and the types of information you can get from speaking to NPCs.
This is good to know. Thanks for mentioning it Benonai!
Jothany said:OakKnower said:One of the things that came to mind while reading this (and I love a deep, rich faction element), is the idea that this might become problematic if a group of players have set up camp somewhere slaughtering mobs for hours and hours.
Wouldn't it be great when a party sets up camp and stays 'too long' in that spot if suddenly, a large number of the local mobs that the party has been farming came charging out of nowhere at the group, enough to be a significant threat of a wipe but not guaranteed to win IF the party is well organized and practiced at teamwork.
Love this idea btw.
Jothany said:OakKnower said:One of the things that came to mind while reading this (and I love a deep, rich faction element), is the idea that this might become problematic if a group of players have set up camp somewhere slaughtering mobs for hours and hours.
Wouldn't it be great when a party sets up camp and stays 'too long' in that spot if suddenly, a large number of the local mobs that the party has been farming came charging out of nowhere at the group, enough to be a significant threat of a wipe but not guaranteed to win IF the party is well organized and practiced at teamwork.
This kind of dynamic monster population 'reaction' has been discussed before and, yeah, it's an interesting idea, indeed. There are lots of related things that would make it fun and not prohibitive.
The concept of 'random' Dispositions is already a thing. Even if you don't get whole new encounters appearing, prolonged farming of a population/faction could cause certain Dispositions (like Vengeful or Enraged or whatever) much more likely.
This could be a very good thing, not some kind of 'punishment', as it dispositions effect the loot tables in a good way, even if it temporarily upped the challenge.
No doubt a 'revenge' attack would have interesting loot if you survive. 'Farming' an area could become a preferred tactic in order to get better rewards, not a punishment for farming. Just risk vs reward like any other aspect of encounter challenge.
Players would quickly learn to cope and mitigate, by moving around more if they are taking on encounters that were on the edge of their capability. If you take on relatively very tough encounters *and* stay there long enough to bring about retaliatory dispositions or even whole extra encounters, then that is, like everything else in the game, your choice and your risk to take.
Encouraging groups to move around is not by nature 'a bad thing', it's just another immersive design feature making things more like a world and less like a game. It's new, but it's no 'worse' than wandering/patrolling monsters or repop rates or dense spawn patterns or the many other ways challenge is added in an immersive way.
Let's face it, the whole concept of 'farming' an area - killing 'the same' monsters you just killed over and over - staying in a monster community's home for hours on end being genocidal with little consequence - is bizarre and 'unreal' by nature, but is an accepted mainstay gameplay loop in MMORPGs and of course it would become a pretty boring game if things stayed dead when you killed them. But there's no reason some 'realism' can't be introduced and be a meaningful and interesting feature/mechanic.
disposalist said: This kind of dynamic monster population 'reaction' has been discussed before and, yeah, it's an interesting idea, indeed. There are lots of related things that would make it fun and not prohibitive.The concept of 'random' Dispositions is already a thing. Even if you don't get whole new encounters appearing, prolonged farming of a population/faction could cause certain Dispositions (like Vengeful or Enraged or whatever) much more likely.
When the idea came to me, I had a specific image. Old movies had a trope where a local gang of outlaws would oppress a small town, until a 'mysterious stranger' came to town and stood up to them. Which would rally the locals to find their courage, band together, and drive the oppressors away.
I flashed on a bunch of ratkin, orcs or whatever coming together and attacking the farming group to protect their community. For added fun, they would all be carrying torches and pitchforks :)
Vandraad said:Define 'too long' and then get everyone who plays to accept that time and then it could be a thing. Otherwise no. Just because I have the time to spend many hours in a give spot trying to obtain a specific item I should not be penalized because some gimmicky mechanic says I've been there too long. That's garbage.
"Too long" should be a variable that is influenced by NPC intelligence, density, and the value of those who go missing. The variables are to make it feel realistic and a certain amount of RNG is needed to avoid it feeling like an artificial timer to meta-game.
It doesn't need to be a massive force, either. In most cases, the NPCs should start sending out patrols. If anyone from the patrol gets away, expect a major attack. But if you kill the entire patrol, usually the response will be bigger patrols. Response logic should vary by how intelligent and social the NPCs as well as have some inherently more inclined to different responses.
There should be many possible responses, including these as well:
All of this is to make the game feel more like a real world, to make it more dynamic, and to require players stay observant and adapt. This also makes for a slow ramp-up of challenge, which helps keep even vanilla mmo spawn camping interesting.
Also. I would love to see a game that didn't have visible respawn pops. If players are in the area, NPCs should spawn in one of two ways:
This further adds to making a world that feels more real and less like a game.