Tanks are usually the least played class in every mmo I have ever played. What changes to tanks or the general gameplay would it take for you to consider playing one over the current role you mostly play?
I personally love healing because of how reactive and unscripted it always is. Even in games with scripted fights, you don't know when people are going to mess up or do something that will require you to adjust properly to save the group. I'm geniunely excited about VR's goal of moving away from rotations, and if executed well would make me strongly debate between tank or healer.
not to be glib, but, regular caster friends who really need me and depend on me, sometimes can't do anything without me and make sure i'm aware of that whenever I am on. Not because I need it, but because they feel they need the tank. The pressence of the tank makes the tension of situational awareness drop in any given situation. Facing a challenge, going deeper in a dungeon is made more confident with the tank- we can't go right, it's too tough, but wait, soandso the warrior is coming. Really?! in that case lets wait and we'll go left and come back around to the right and see whats around there.
I know it's not the answer you're going for but I think the social dynamic needs to be thought of as well as the class need/dependency.
Seriously? Tanks are the far easiest role in MMORPGs. The only thing you have to do, is to pretend that you have a clue about the game. To know the way in a dungeon is mostly enough and the people will believe, that you know what you are doing. xD
And why it is the easiest role? Because you are never guilty when something goes wrong. A DPS class gets aggro? It is the DPS player's fault. You die? It was the healers fault. You die because you did not dodge a big bad atttack? It was lag or it was still the "bad" healer ... and so on. :-)
And why are tanks the least played role? Because in most MMOs you are not a real tank. You are a crippled DPS class with more aggro generation and more armor. That's it. The gameplay is almost the same like from a DPS class. And why playing a clippled DPS class when one can play a real one? And that is the point, the players choose the real one.
Cheers
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"Community Debate - What would it take for you to play the main tank? Why do you think the tank class is the least popular? Join this community-created discussion and let us know your thoughts https://seforums.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/13788/what-would-it-take-for-you-to-enjoy-having-a-tank-main #MMORPG #CommunityMatters #games"
Larirawiel said:Seriously? Tanks are the far easiest role in MMORPGs. The only thing you have to do, is to pretend that you have a clue about the game. To know the way in a dungeon is mostly enough and the people will believe, that you know what you are doing. xD
And why it is the easiest role? Because you are never guilty when something goes wrong. A DPS class gets aggro? It is the DPS player's fault. You die? It was the healers fault. You die because you did not dodge a big bad atttack? It was lag or it was still the "bad" healer ... and so on. :-)
And why are tanks the least played role? Because in most MMOs you are not a real tank. You are a crippled DPS class with more aggro generation and more armor. That's it. The gameplay is almost the same like from a DPS class. And why playing a clippled DPS class when one can play a real one? And that is the point, the players choose the real one.
Cheers
As far as it is an hyperbole, the matter is more about consequences and responsibilities than perception from others.
Tank is a 100% active role who's errors, whoever is blamed for, will cripple or wipe your whole party/raid.
Most people don't want that burden, and half of those who want it are for the wrong reasons.
I have tanked on my alt and i like tanking in raids/dungeons because i can set the pace and control what would otherwise be difficult situations.
But the reason I don't play a tank;
1. Tank mechanics in dungeons tend be boring. Side step a combo, tank swap on a debuff, kite the boss? that's about it.
2. Solo content - low damage and low sustain
3. Having to have multiple armor/weapon sets to be optimal raid member if team needs me to dps
I can enjoy tanking but tanks usually slow down soloing(pve/pvp) a lot, which is a pain. So I really enjoyed tanking in WoW before they split the bear and cat stats, because they could still solo in a reasonable amount of time, and then tank at other times as needed. Don't get me wrong, I don't think WoW druids are needed in Pantheon.
Also, I usually find mana bars make classes more exciting due to the longer term punishments and burst. (assuming we aren't in wow raids where you just cast heal over and over whether or not the tank needs it). So I tend toward the shadowknight/paladin/WoW druid types of tank over warriors.
When I think "main tank" I think "very difficult to kill!" I would sacrifice ALL my damage output if it meant I could actually protect my allies and I was very difficult to kill. When I tank it's not about the damage that I can do. It's about making my group feel safe. If they can trust me to protect them then someone else can do the damage.
So what I'd want? Mechanics that allow me to protect my group at all costs. I should be the first one to die in a group situation. Give me a way to step in between the mob and my soft friends and tell it "If you want to kill him, you've got to go through me first!!"
Without disagreeing with any of the excellent answers already given - I choose to go of on a tangent. But my tangent is entirely relevant to the question and is important to some of us that might, or might not, play the tank role. By the way it is just as relevant to the question of whether we would want to play healers.
To the extent Panthon provides soloable content - can the tank handle it?
Assume for the sake of simplicity that all dungeon content is intended for groups but a significant amount of landscape content can be handled solo. So that a player who lacks the time or desire to group on a particular day can still explore the world and get *some* loot and experience albeit less than in a dungeon.
If the tank (or healer) will have great difficulty with solo content at or near level because she doesn't have the ability to do enough damage to actually kill anything I will never play a tank (or healer). Under such a design if I want the character to take a look at the Butt Creek Mountains just to see what is there - she won't even be able to kill the local wildlife, much less a wandering orc - unless she is well over their level. Makes it rather inconvenient to explore without spending an hour getting a group and waiting for it to assemble. Plus the time of actually exploring. So even to see the world - don't log on any day where you have less than a few hours.
Sure this is meaningless to someone whose only interest is to be the tank for a group in a dungeon. But it is a real disincentive to someone with wider interests. Thus long ago the one class I would never play in DAOC was the Midgard Healer. Because it could barely defeat a green con mob (one significantly lower in level) and sometimes would die to a gray con mob (one very much lower in level). I eventually left the game with something like 18 characters on the Gaheris server at maximum level. Each a different class. None a Midgard Healer.
If a tank can do nothing but group - I will never play a tank. I value the flexibility to do other things when I am in the mood or only have an hour to play.
JonWane said: As someone who only plays Tank/Healer. . . For a Tank it's not about a class. Today people just naturally assume they are the ones to know where to go and what to do. In my opinion this is the stereotype the role has fallen into, so people who don't want to stress over making decisions and taking the lead in that way shy away from the role. We need to change that perception that the Tank HAS to know everything, and just let them be part of the group. That said, The Tank Job is more about setting the pace and direction for the group in most games, More so than actually keeping aggro and soaking damage. Which it should be, but that should be optional. A game that facilities another role in a party pulling and setting pace so your Tank can just soak or mitigate damage should be an option that we welcome.
This is a great point! I actually play a "dumb tank" in a D&D group I play with because I don't do the homework or know the world that that specific group plays. I show up and basically take orders....I can take all the damage and protect my friends, but my character doesn't really KNOW anything haha. There's no reason why it should default to the tank to lead the group. I like that Minus demonstrated that in a stream (leading the group from the rogue perspective). When I used to play EQ I often lead my group from the Ranger perspective.
As long as you want to group, tanks are fine. Soloing as a tank is near impossible. Joining a raiding guild as a tank is almost as impossible because they usually only need 2 tanks. Any other tank is just taking up valuable spots for other people.
This might be true in another game you've played. I wouldn't say we know that about Pantheon though.
My wife is playing a tank atm in ESO and she likes it. Bonus for me. I play all the tank spec/classes in my current MMO. I also play all the healers and DPS. I do this not only to milk all I can out of a game but because I prefer to know what everyone can and should be doing.
Will I main a tank on Terminus? Not if my wife will do it. I will run a healer which synergizes best with her tank of choice (as an alt). I will play more than she will, so if guildies happen to need a tank when she is not on I will most likely do that on her char, however, my first choice will be an Enchanter-afaik
In WoW and ESO, playing a tank solo is extremely viable, I do not anticipate that being the case on Terminus of course.
I hope when Alpha rolls around and has been going for a good bit of time, the devs will post the percentages of how many are playing what roles. Perhaps that information might sway those on the fence in regard to going with a tank main.
Like it or not, the tank will still be saddled with knowing most of the necessary ins and outs of overland areas, dungeoneering, and raid encounters. Comes with the territory.
I have no idea which tank will have garnered the most players, but I am hoping for a good spread.
dorotea said:If the tank (or healer) will have great difficulty with solo content at or near level because she doesn't have the ability to do enough damage to actually kill anything I will never play a tank (or healer). Under such a design if I want the character to take a look at the Butt Creek Mountains just to see what is there - she won't even be able to kill the local wildlife, much less a wandering orc - unless she is well over their level. Makes it rather inconvenient to explore without spending an hour getting a group and waiting for it to assemble. Plus the time of actually exploring. So even to see the world - don't log on any day where you have less than a few hours.
This is my same view.
With that said though, I feel that I have to address the comment some have made about perceiving the tank as the pace-setter/leader of a group; When I would tank for any group, I would monitor the healer's mana/resource to determine the pace... when I was a puller for a group, I would monitor the healer's mana/resource to determine the pace... and when I was a healer for a group, I would tell everyone to sit the F down if my mana/resource was low - and everyone sat the F down. In summary, the tank doesn't determine shiz aside from positioning the target (via threat and mitigating incoming damage while being healed while other party members DPS or CC). That is literally all the tank is for in trinity (or quardrinity) role MMOs, which as some have said, and I agree with, is seriously boring, but also essential. As others have said, actually "tanking" is the easiest (by terms of responsibility) role in a well balanced group... you barely have to move or pay attention to anything other than "is the enemy hitting me and nobody else?" with nearly total disregard for your own health or mechanics that you have no way of avoiding because it would "typically" mean endangering other group members. This is because, like others have said, unless the player does something overtly silly (like break CC too early, or doesn't move from an easily avoidable mechanic designed to be avoided, or pulls when the healer is LoM, etc etc) the fault of any wrong doing is never on the tank (because their only real responsibility is to hold the attention of the enemy).
The most useless feeling is being the tank in a fight with mechanics that are immune to threat or have random threat mechanics. So to answer the OP, for me to "enjoy" playing a tank as my main character I would have to be able to have enough damage to contribute as much to a fight as a DPS class when I wasn't the focus of an attack/was not high on threat list. Some would say that would defeat the purpose of having a DPS role, but I would argue that the DPS roles also have "flex" roles of CC or Tank, and the reason people don't play tanks regularly is primarily because they lack DPS.
A mechanic for tank roles could be to have a "stance" where their DPS increase while in combat whenever they weren't top threat, this would likely also help them generate threat in the times when a DPS pulls damage threat and simultaneously keep their damage lower than a DPS class's when soloing (since their mitigation should always be high). Circling back to Dortea's comment, all classes should be able to explore on their own within reason, but I'm hoping that the tanks aren't simply punching bags like many in other MMOs and they will actually be enjoyable to play. Two types of people play the punching bag tanks... those that understand the necessity of the role and hate having to rely on others to form groups, or people that power-trip and enjoy bossing people around using the threat of "I'll leave your group if you don't do what I say, and you will be forced to find another rarely played class" mentality. In games where the tank can actually perform other roles, tanks are pleniful and you get less of the power trippers.
@Manouk That's definitely an answer I'm looking for, so thank you. Making them an integral part of everyday exploring simply for the feeling of being needed by others is a very real reason some people pick tanks over other roles. With the group focus in Pantheon, that may be felt even more whether you're dong landscape exploring or mostly dungeons whereas tanks are ignored in landscape content in many games.
@Jobeson For me, the skill checks you mentioned like positioning become almost second nature and don't feel like an active part of tanking over the long haul. It would be cool to see some summoner tank pets, although that might also make tanks even less desireable for some content. Do you think having more interrupts and stuns would make tanking even more fun for you?
@Larirawiel What would you add to the tank role that would make it more than a subpar DPS with more aggro generation and more armor as you say?
@Kilsin Thank you for the promotion of the thread!
@Mauvais_Oeil I agree people will notice major tank errors. What are some of the wrong reasons? Is there any way to alleviate that burden of responsibilty to make the role seem more accessible to others? I know JonWane makes a solid point for alleviating the need for tanks to know the path in every dungeon by using pullers.
@voyce It seems in Pantheon almost every class might need multiple armor sets for different goals. What would you like to see added to tank mechanics to make it more fun?
@chaosangelwings I do agree veteran players can be harsher on tanks, especially if they don't immediately state they're still learning. I hoping that toxicity is one thing we won't have to worry about as much in Pantheon.
@BeaverBiscuit Slower solo'ing is tough for tanks and healers in general. I've just come to see it as a tax for having much much faster times when looking for group. Are mana bars different that stamina bars for you, or do you simply prefer the allure of using magic?
@Ranarius I meant main tank as in a tank class is your primary character. To your point, I do like mitigation tanks as well. Would you prefer to see the protection mechanics as mitigation buffs, damage intercepts, cc, or something else entirely?
@JonWane I'll be honest, when starting games that have been around for a few years, this is what keeps me away from playing a tank the most. I don't want to be expected to know everything and have everyone in the group waiting on me. If I had a puller and my main focus was actually keeping aggro and soaking damage, I'd be way less hesitant about starting tanks in those games.
@dorotea This isn't an off tangent at all. The pain of leveling and solo content is one of the reasons I most hear people shy away from tank (and healer). The lack of DPS when not in a group setting is a huge detriment. I know some games offer offensive and defensive stances, and I really think this is the way to go for both tanks and healers. Give an average skilled tank about 70-80% the DPS of an average skilled damage class player while greatly reducing the defensive abilities to make it more reasonable. Make the stance only changeable out of combat so people don't stance dance in groups, and prevent it from becoming a requirement for efficient tanking (and healing).
@Titanias Do you think raids and higher end content consistently requiring the use of more tanks in overcoming mechanics would encourage more people to play one?
@Thunderleg Tank + enchanter sounds like it would be a duo to overcome absolutely any situation it encounters, haha. As for stats on how many people are playing each role, I think that affects the decision of some who are undecided on their class but can also make people play the roles without actually enjoying them. The knowledge requirements of the tank are designed by the game. If your role is to CC, it's your job to know which targets need to be held down first. Pullers need to know what groups they can take. Basically, there are ways to not put all of the knowledge burden on tanks.
@Darch I like the idea of higher DPS when you're not top threat, but that would be problematic when you have an off tank since that would ping pong the boss between the two. Are there any group jobs you would add to the tank itself outside of positioning the targets? Would you like to see aggro management to be more active vs the current passive trend?
Thank you all for participating. I'm enjoying reading all these replies!
I tend to main healers and love a good tank. However, when it comes to me tanking, I find the tanking role to be the exact opposite of what I enjoy. Tanking is a role that can require a lot of group coordination but isn't really that engaging for me. I also find playing that role can semi stressful when you have other people pulling things. On the flip side, if I am playing a healer, I like it when there is chaos. If a DPS wants to pull additional mobs (depending on the situation) let them. I love to be tested when I am healing, and I love having to make quick adaptations.
I'll be honest, tanking will always be the last thing on my list to play. There isn't anything that would make me play a tank over a healer. Honestly, there really isn't anything that would make me play a tank over any other role.
I think that all of the tanking classes are going to need the ability to flex into a DPS role. I don't think that their DPS capabilities should be better than any of the true DPS classes, but I think they still need this ability depending on the situation.
Feastycentral said:@Darch I like the idea of higher DPS when you're not top threat, but that would be problematic when you have an off tank since that would ping pong the boss between the two. Are there any group jobs you would add to the tank itself outside of positioning the targets? Would you like to see aggro management to be more active vs the current passive trend?
I would advocate for the higher DPS when you're not top threat "while in a particular stance" so if there were multiple tanks, the off tank could be in another stance until they needed to gain threat. I think people have mentioned other "flex" roles for the different tanks that make sense thematically like the DL flexing DPS, the Paladin flexing heal and the Warrior flexing CC/support with banners. But at the end of the day, DPS is always a safe bet to keep people interested.
@Titanias Do you think raids and higher end content consistently requiring the use of more tanks in overcoming mechanics would encourage more people to play one?
Not really. It would kinda have the reverse effect where you would want less of another class for tanking classes. What I think would help is if the tank had multple roles. I don't mean tanking and dps but more like the tanks lose their self buffs and self protection that helps them tank better and gives those buffs to the groups they are in. Example: maybe the tank has a self 100 ac buff, 100 str buff etc. When they are not in tanking mode those buffs become more group based. That 100 ac is spread across the group they are in making them a little bit more survivable in the raid. That makes them have a purpose outside of just tanking and then if the raid encounters would stop being designed around artificial checks, dps checks, healing checks, etc. then there would be no reason to have the perfect setup. A raid group would just need a strategy that worked for them.
Just an idea.
I'll post the same thing here that I did on Reddit.
I'll happily play a tank if I don't have to constantly worry about holding threat. How classic EQ did it made it highly gear-dependent (at least for a Warrior, Paladin and SK, not so much) and it was terrible. I'd rather be worried about defensives and playing the class rather than chasing after mobs chasing a group member that's running away. That doesn't sound fun to me. At the very least, give us AOE threat abilities, and something for snap-aggro.
Thinking about holding threat a bit more, I think it would be super fun if tanks could get rewarded with more threat the better they mitigate incoming damage instead of damage dealt. Like, the mobs get angrier the less they damage you. Makes sense to me.
As a side note: would also be cool if Enchanters got a spell they could use to buff a party member that makes them appear more threatening. Could give us more utility than we would already provide and could enable Rogues or Monks the ability to be a proper evasion tank if their toolkits allow for that kind of gameplay. We all know there are situations that a proper tank is nowhere to be found. So, it would be insanely fun to allow niche abilities like the Enchanter threat spell and Monk/Rogue evasion mitigation tools to be used as an example of emergent gameplay. JUST PUTTING THAT OUT THERE wink wink
Everyone has their own drive. For me its healing, protecting and holding a 2H spear/polearm to hit.
In EQ I always go Shaman, and then because I sit most of the fight and have only 1H spears, I switch to Paladin.
In Pantheon, with the changes to Clerics as buffer/protection healers that are at melee range, there is also a chance to do something symmetric to Paladins, turning them to PB AoE healer tanks. That way Cleric can't tank as well as Pali, with limited PB AoE protection, and Pali can't heal everyone beyond the front line.
Healers / secondary role: Cleric Tank, Shaman Support, Druid DPS.
Tanks / secondary role: Paladin Healer, SK DPS, Warrior Support
I will try the Cleric for sure, but without Polearm or Spear, will likely try a Pali again, this time really enjoying it if you consider the above. I may also consider Shaman with a big spear, if melee range will be viable. The secondary role of a class will add a lot of flavor, to make tanks more fun, and getting roles a bit more mixed. Per my own experience, Pali in EQ are not really healers by any measure, besides some emergency healing. A true secondary role as a tank/healer will make a huge difference.
I wrote on YouTube:My very first MMO character was Balanz, son of Anz, a Dwarven Paladin, and it was more about the Roleplaying. He was a protector, a defender, a slayer of undead, and unshakeable in his faith.
I never tanked for a raid or other challenging content.
Knowing what I know now about the role of tanking, I would want taunts that felt effective, that immediately grabbed the attention of the foe. "Just a second, you!" I'd like to interrupt the enemy, changing their target to me.
I've tanked in Dungeons and Dragons, which I've played for some 45 years, and the main tool there is the opportunity attack: a free attack if the foe moves away. Or a mark, giving the foe disadvantage if they attack anyone else but me.
But I suspect some kind of active engagement, the ability to reach out and force the enemy to focus on me would make tanking funner.
By itself, aggro is a weird thing, a substitute for artificial intelligence. Maybe there can be other ways to manipulate a smart enemy.
While I think I understand healing well enough to Alpha test all three classes, I expect to only test Paladin. Maybe I will learn Tanking well enough to contribute more.