Feastycentral said:@Jobeson For me, the skill checks you mentioned like positioning become almost second nature and don't feel like an active part of tanking over the long haul. It would be cool to see some summoner tank pets, although that might also make tanks even less desireable for some content. Do you think having more interrupts and stuns would make tanking even more fun for you?
Positioning is second nature to good tanks, the fact we see so many people fail at it is why it is rewarding. I mean rotations and animation canceling are second nature to good DPS and tanks in most games as well, but positioning is unique to tanks.
More interrupts and stuns are not needed, but big punishments is important. Properly using cool downs and interrupts is the pressure only tanks have. DPS doesn't perfectly use their cool down and no one cares. The tank does it and the raid wipes. As long as that pressure is there where good tanks are clearly good the draw to tanking will be huge.
Summoners having a tank flex would simply mean if the group has enough CC or tanks the summoner would want to change to a different style of play. Swapping your focus to fit the group on a summoner is a class feature. Shifting between tank/support to melee dps to magical dps depending on what the group needs is the fun of the class.
The Limited Action Set provides an opportunity to make tanks interesting, more flexible and viable in different circumstances.
Think of the LAS as a temporary build that can be modified outside of combat. A character's current choice of abilities acts as their "stance."
Besides four basic abilities B1, B2, B3, B4, let's say a Tank has four stackable Tank abilities, T1, T2, T3, T4, and four stackable DPS abilities, D1, D2, D3 and D4.
When the Tank expects to Main Tank, they might choose all four Tank abilities, while the occasional Off Tank might take only a couple Tank abilities. When soloing, they might need only one Tank ability.
For each Tank ability they don't take, they choose a DPS ability instead. The rest of their LAS could be the basic abilities B1, B2, B3 and B4.
If the Tank abilities are interesting, then Tanking is interesting. For example:
T1: Classic Taunt: Foe more likely to attack Tank after current attack
T2: Stun: Foe's current attack is aborted
T3: Spin: Foe turns and switches their current Attack to Tank
T4: Mark: Foe is distracted, takes penalty to attacks against all but Tank
These abilities could be differentiated and refined so that they become interesting tactical questions. Strategy is deciding which Tank abilities to carry.
I am unfamiliar with modern MMOs or computer games, but this seems plausible to me.
My answer to this question would likely be the same regardless of which class or role the question was referencing. I want:
1) Dynamic gameplay. Set rotations are boring. Mash whatever's off cooldown is boring. I like multiple class resources with variable rates of regeneration that interact with each other, e.g., I loved WoW rogue's energy and combo points. Combo builders might proc an extra combo point, and finishers might refund energy, so the best skill usage at any moment will vary dependent on what just happened with your resources. I want to be rewarded for paying attention to the game.
a) In my experience, this aspect of gameplay is often left as encounter design for tanks, instead of baked into the class design. Watch for things to interrupt, watch for adds, watch for big hits to pop mitigation cooldowns, etc. … but here’s your single vaguely mana-ish resource which is probably fine as long as you don’t drain it completely. I am excited to see how things pan out with paladin wrath and reckoning points, and warrior resilience and battle points.
2) To feel that I can stand out from other players by virtue of my skill with a class. All rogues in the raid are good at stabbing ankles, but only Krave switches smoothly to evasion-tanking when the tank bites the dust. Corollary to this is that the class toolkit must be diverse enough to allow it to do something other than its primary role. Flexibility that doesn’t require re-speccing to a new role.
3) Flavourful/cool skills.
a) Boring: Angry Strike generates extra aggro somehow, even though you’re doing less damage than everyone else stabbing the enemy. If the enemy had any brains he would realize you’re actually the lowest threat to his survival.
b) Cool: Below the Belt - hit ‘em where it hurts. This attack generates extra aggro because sometimes it’s not about the damage, it’s about the disrespect.
I think for me, tanking feels like a big responsibility sometimes. A DPS making a mistake means they might not do as much damage and the fight takes a little longer. A tank makes a mistake and they might die and the group wipes. You're also in a leadership position if you don't have a dedicated puller which means you need to know the area better than a dps class or even a healer usually. Also if I have to leave the group suddenly as a DPS, I don't kneecap the group anywhere near as bad as if I have to leave unexpectedly as the main tank. I don't always want to deal with that responsiblity. Sometimes I just want to pew pew.
That being said, from a strictly gameplay point of view, I think tanks can be very boring if the tank is a tank by virtue of the fact that they take less damage than everyone else and they gain aggro by using abilities that don't do much damage but just have aggro bonuses attached to them. I'm a bigger fan of counterattack type abilities like Revenge in WoW that gave you a low-cost instant attack but only when you dodged, parried, or blocked. Spell Reflect was another good one, which if you haven't played did exactly what it sounds like. I was also a fan of Shield Slam doing more damage the more block value your shield had. I guess what I'm trying to say is my abilities should incentivize me to be the one getting targeted by doing bonus damage or having bonus effects rewarding me for having good tanking stats or taking / mitigating incoming hits. Being able to turn my enemies' attacks against them feels like it gives me some agency in my gameplay beyond "get aggro, keep aggro."
Balanz said:... let's say a Tank has four stackable Tank abilities, T1, T2, T3, T4, and four stackable DPS abilities, D1, D2, D3 and D4...
I personally would prefer enough tank abilities that I can choose abilities for the LAS that are all tank abilitlies. And I don't want every tank to have the same 8 abilitlies on their bar. That means, to me, there has to be 12 or more good options for tank specific abilitlies, giving me some options all within the tanking sphere. I don't want to choose the four tank abilities then fill up my bar with dps abilitlies. I'd have zero interest in dps when I'm tanking, or even off tanking. I hope they're creative enough to add more abilitlies :)
"Give an average skilled tank about 70-80% the DPS of an average skilled damage class player while greatly reducing the defensive abilities to make it more reasonable. Make the stance only changeable out of combat so people don't stance dance in groups, and prevent it from becoming a requirement for efficient tanking (and healing). "
Stances are indeed an excellent way of allowing tanks to be something other than helpless when on their own. With reducing their tankiness when in dps stance an absolute must so they are not any more powerful than dps classes. With restrictions on stance changing another absolute must. Such as not in combat or 15 minute cooldown or both.
Vandraad said:Does a tank box count that I can multi-box with my Shaman?
I hope that a tank isn't tanky simply by being. Just like a dps is going to need to be active to maximize dps, or a healer has to be active to maximize healing, I sure hope a tank has to be active to maximize his tankiness. Not saying you won't have the skills to do that.
I think most people don't like playing tanks because of the pressure to be a "leader" for the group. Not sure why most people think the tank has to be the lead, but it's a fairly common idea in my friend group at least. For me, if the combat style of the class is fun I'll play it regardless of if it's a tank or dps. Definitely gonna make a Shire Lord as my 2nd or third character
"Not sure why most people think the tank has to be the lead"
The perception often is that a tank needs to know the dungeons because the tank should be the first one into each room. Depending on the game the tank may well be the puller and a puller that doesn't know what to pull or when to pull it will not be very effective. Constantly following instructions from someone that does know the dungeon can work but especially in PUGs may be less than ideal for either the instructor or the instructee.
dorotea said:"Not sure why most people think the tank has to be the lead"
The perception often is that a tank needs to know the dungeons because the tank should be the first one into each room. Depending on the game the tank may well be the puller and a puller that doesn't know what to pull or when to pull it will not be very effective. Constantly following instructions from someone that does know the dungeon can work but especially in PUGs may be less than ideal for either the instructor or the instructee.
The tank being the lead hasn't really been a general rule in my experience.
Sometimes they are and sometimes it makes sense, but a leader - the one directing the group's activities, if there is one person - should be the one who is pivotal to the group dynamic, but that depends on what the group is doing and who is good at their role and where they are and so many things that it is rarely one particular class. Sometimes pulling is critical, sometimes crowd control, sometimes healing, sometimes tanking, etc.
I have experienced it being frustrating for a tank when they are *not* the lead, but still are given all the responsibility for the group staying alive, though.
I have experienced pullers that pull badly or too fast, and the tank is blamed when they can't "just cope".
I've experienced CCers that can't CC and the tank is blamed when they can't "just keep aggro on everything".
I've experienced healers that can't heal and the tank is blamed for "not holding aggro" or "starting combat when we weren't ready".
I've had leaders of various classes lead into bad situations or progress too quickly and the tank get blamed for "not taking control as needed".
I think that there is possibly a prevailing view that tanks are 'responsible' because they are, when things go well, the ones that appear to be 'directing' the fights.
But I think we all know that is not the reality.
Tank is just a 'role' like any other and, in a good MMORPG, all roles need to perform for a group to survive and all classes have responsibility.
I usually tank in most MMO's I play one in particular was Classic wow. It had an interesting unintentional tanking meta. I know the game had been out for 15+ years and a lot of private servers to hone in and create this type of meta but, the one cool thing that came out of it was a tank that focused on DMG/aggro control skills to hold aggro. Doing as much dmg as they possibly could to hold aggro. Instead of the classic stacking health stacking mitigation gear and maxing block and other defensive stats they were able to push the limits of the class and found that if you had capable healers and were mechanically aware of what was going on around you, you were able to only need some defensive stats and could focus on doing as much dmg as you could. This intern helped the raid/dungeon fights go faster. I know pantheon wants to slow that TTK I just think that the option for that kind of gameplay might be something too look at for the tanking sphere. I also understand that because of how "Meta" classic wow was most of the other tanking classes weren't viable because the fury/prot warrior tank was so much better in Min/Max guilds. If there would be a way for pantheon to throw in some new tanking ideas other then the sword and bored low damage high defensive stats meat shield that most tanks are I think it could sway a lot of players to test out some of the tanking classes.
@Darch - That would make sense using tank stances to affect the aggro aspect. I agree DPS usually becomes king, but we also haven't had a game require support roles in so long that it may be different for Pantheon. I do really like the flex roles people have theorized for the current tanks. It would make for some interesting group dynamics.
@Titanias - I'm not sure what type of buffs would make the group pick more tanks over more dps or focused support classes, but it's a cool idea. As for removing the artificial checks, if the game is more resource focused then maybe the checks wouldn't be needed. The group needs to kill it before casters are completely out of mana, and other more fun mechanics can be implemented.
@Rickenjack - My experience in most modern mmo's is that threat is a non-issue for the most part. Some threat transferring skills could eliminate the need to physically chase mobs while still requiring situational awareness. I think having threat increase as you better mitigate would be a unique idea for a tank as well. Something for the devs to potentially explore.
@Durost - I agree. I need a more active/reactive style of gameplay and not just an optimal rotation. It's why I enjoy healing in almost every game. Let's hope for the best!
@SynSymbio - I'm likely playing Shaman, and am very excited to have a spear (I didn't really play EQ in it's prime). I hope you enjoy cleric and pally so much you just main both, haha.
@Balanz - It's funny, I was also brainstorming having some debuffs or self-buffs against mobs that ignore don't attack you in an encounter. Maybe have it be something active instead of passive so it's more engaging?
@Jobeson - Interrupting is so gratifying when done right. Would there be a way to implement defensive cooldowns that's not just a game of whack-a-mole making sure the button is pressed every x seconds? That pressure you mention is part of what makes it so exciting, but also part of what intimidates so many from trying to tank themselves. The right balance is needed.
@Jothany - I'm with you on that one. What's your reason for playing one? I love that feeling of being indestructible, and being an integral part of any group.
@Balanz - You make an excellent point! I keep not factoring in the LAS. This would solve the need for different stances. Let the players pick and customize what they need and when.
@krave - It seems VR is attempting a more dynamic gameplay feel for classes. This would inherently make playing classes well more skill and knowledge based, allowing the great players to stand out more than those who might not fully understand all their abilities.
@Heebs - Those are very valid feelings towards the pressures tanks are put through, even if not explicitly. Having a few classes that can flex tank I believe would alleviate this tremendously, as well as having a puller as you mentioned. As for incentivizing abilities, I'm a huge fan of these fantastic examples and line of thought for tank designs.
@Ranarius - I believe Balanz was giving that as an example. I think (and hope) VR is providing the variety you mentioned, not just for tanks but for every class.
@dorotea - I agree. However, I think I'm liking Balanz's idea even more. Having LAS determine how you're effective at both. If you try to do both, then you won't be the best at both which brings you right back to step one.
@Vandraad - If you can box any class successfully outside of providing buffs/debuffs then I'd be pretty disappointed. I know that may not be a popular opinion, but it's the expectation I have for the challenge and intricacy of the classes.
@Sinnamortai - In most modern mmo's, the tank has to be in the front to aggro all the enemies which by nature makes them the person leading the party (wasn't the case with games that had pullers). Therefore, it's almost become expected that they lead and know all the routes, enemies, etc. As for your second or third character, I'm excited to see some Shire Lords running around.
@dorotea - You're right that it's particular to PUGs since as a tank I've been guided through voice chat in friend groups. It's incredibly helpful for building up confidence in unknown areas.
@disposalist - I agree the person to lead should be the one with the most knowledge in what's going on. Unfortunately, I feel this is mostly seen in groups that know each other. Maybe this is why many tanks I know say they only group with guildies or friends.
@THERIVALMOB - I do remember that trend for the dps build warriors. It seems once people are geared, dps becomes the main goal even for tanks. Maybe this can be offset by having a lot of the damage mitigation come from skills as opposed to mostly from gear? As long as one tank doesn't end up being just as efficient as the other two in the majority of encounters without any negatives (or positives for the other tanks), then we won't see such a lopsided favoritism for one over the others.
I personally like to tank, most MMOs I play I always go for a class that can off-Tank. Some of the reasons you mentioned are just how important Tank is for the group. So when you play with friends you can always pick up a DPS or 2 and get a group going. It's nice to be needed I guess.
Tanking can be a bit stressful in some situations especially when you are doing harder content and some nights I might not have my reaction or awareness (or just feeling lazy) to tank. And this is where playing an off-tank role is so nice, switch to DPS and let someone else stress about the pull and everything else.
I not answering your question I guess lol, not sure what play style needs to happen for more people to play Tanks, I think they need to be a bit more than just go get aggro and that's it.
When you play with a group you hear DPS compete with each other calling out the numbers they hit with their ability, healers also have the number +healing they are doing. But as a Tank, you spem ability with no or very little damage and trying to hols aggro (which I like) but you do feel left out from that social game of number lol. Well, at least that is what I hear from people in my circle who I play with. They don't feel like tanking as they find aggro holding boring, they need Numbers haha.
Jothany said:Darch said: Two types of people play the punching bag tanks.....There are two types of people in the world.
Those that believe there are two types of people in the world, and those that don't :)
Yes, I'll be playing a Tank. No, I'm neither type of person you described.
So you are not a "punching bag", because many people (myself included) play tanks, but only "two types of people play the punching bag tanks". I tank in games where the tank can contribute more than just soaking damage.
A tank has a huge responsibility and not a braindead job, they are the command and control in regards to the flow of battle for the party. Tanks dictate what is pulled and how much is pulled, and where positioning is important as well as keeping the rest of the party safe so the party can do DPS, Heals, Ect. Tanking is also about ability control, a tank has to figure out when and what cooldown(s) to use when a tank is targeted by an ability, sometimes one or two defensive cooldowns are needed, and other times you have to ability dump to counter a tankbuster move, also when a mechanic requires a group stack if your tank(s) has a cooldown(s) that helps the party mitigate the incoming damage so healers have to use less MP to heal is key as well. Tanking is not as simple and granted they are excluded from a lot of the mechanics in a raid, but the tradeoff is dealing with hard-hitting DPS and healer-killing mechanics. So in conclusion tanks have there fair share of responsibilities in a party than just button-mashing abilities.
I think a few people touched on a very interesting point regarding PUGs and the presumed leadership of the tank. I hadn't really considered that angle because most of my MMO time has been spent as part of a somewhat hardcore WoW raiding guild. Our raid leader was DPS, a mage, but we also had channels and leaders for different roles. I raided as rogue DPS in vanilla and WotLK, and as a paladin tank/healer in BC and Cataclysm. I was a guild officer for most of that time and never felt like there were extra responsibilities based on class or role. But I've barely ever had to play in any sort of PUG.
I'm curious if there's a correlation between PUG oriented players and feeling like tanks (and/or healers) are saddled with greater responsbilities, or if this belief is also common amongst raiding oriented players. My experience was that guild officers had extra responsibilities, but their class/role did not factor into it. All raiders were expected to be familiar with a dungeon and its bosses, so play whatever class/role you find the most fun.
That being said, I do feel like it's easier for DPS to "get by" while shirking responsibilities that I consider common to all raid members. I also think this is an encounter design issue rather than a class design issue. More encounters should include abilities that interact with non-DPS abilities of DPS classes. Make them use their interrupts and stuns and teleports and utility summons. As a raiding rogue, being part of an interrupt rotation felt good. Distracting and/or sapping targets for the pull felt good. Evasion-tanking while healers rez the MT felt good. Give DPS a reason to keep non-DPS abilities on their action bars.
I can tell you what makes me not want to tank: making it too easy. Catalclysm buffed tank threat to the point of it nearly becoming a non-mechanic. I was offtanking a dragon in the final bossfight of a raid and dozed off for a minute... and no one in the raid noticed. Standing in place and autoattacking was literally all that was necessary to perform the role. Quit Wow shortly thereafter.
Played a lot of PUGs in my time and, yeah, I'm sure it's much more likely there will be a more informed assignment of leadership in a guild group and more assumptions made in PUGs.
Personally I would always talk to folks in PUGs and find out who had what experience and attempt to hand lead to the one most appropriate, but I guess you have to be diplomatic which isn't everyone's thing.
Sometimes you'd have to push it onto someone that didn't particularly want it hehe.
A guild structure and often personal knowledge of the players in the group will make it much easier to assign leadership without potential issue, I suppose.
Tanking in FFXIV is really easy, yet it is still the least played role (maybe tied with healing).
For me personally, I always feel like I have to know a dungeon or raid (by playing through it on another class than tank), before I try to tank it. But once I feel comfortable with a zone, I'll happily tank there. I guess that means I would not play a tank main, since being a main means that you will go to places before you know them well.
I don't think this is "tank anxiety" per say. More like I feel that a tank should take a leading role, and you (at least, I) can't lead without at least basic knowledge of the places you visit.
As others said already, this also is different between PUGs and guild groups. With a PUG, I don't want to be "that guy" who has no idea what he's doing in a zone, and that is definitely more apparent when you're the tank. In a guild group, things are more relaxed usually, and people are more willing to forgive mistakes.
I can see that the kind person who likes to lead others might gravitate to playing a tank. Perhaps that's part of my attraction to it.
But I make a distinction between leading a fight and leading an adventure. Any group should agree on a general idea of what their goals for the adventure are, preferably before they are in battle. The person(s) with the most knowledge of the area being explored should IMO be the one to direct the movements of the group as it progresses on its adventure - in accordance with the group goals.
Whenever the group engages in battle, there's often not time for much discussion, so the tank is usually the best choice to lead the fight during those periods. Even then, a member with knowledge of the tactics, traits and potential dispositions of the local mobs might be very helpful in suggesting the order of attack.
When I am going into 'uncharted territory' playing a tank, I make it clear early on that anyone with knowledge of what's ahead would be much appreciated for offering advice and suggestions. I personally believe that in any group endeavor - MMO or real life - the more members who are involved in planning and decision making, the happier and more successful the group will be.
Being a leader is not necessarily synonymous with making all the decisions.
I see three reasons for why most people don't play tanks.
1). Being a tank has become defacto synonymous with leading the group in many MMOs, and most players don't seem to want that role.
To increase the amount of people playing tanks, the game needs to offload some of the group responsibilities onto other classes. For instance, making tanks poor at pulling and giving pulling tools to DPS.
2). Tank (along with healer) is a visible role that draws scrutiny. When you smurf up, the whole group notices. Most people have some level of insecurity and it's far easier to stand in the corner than to get on stage in to the spotlight. When a fight goes on for a long time, everyone thinks "this is a hard fight", not DPS player X sucks. When anyone takes aggro, they often think the tank failed. Then the group wipes and they all blame the healer. DPS has to do something blatantly obvious to draw the same scrutiny tanks and healers get for things which aren't even their fault.
3). Many people are uncomfortable with the responsibility. If they play DPS and mess up / underperform, they only feel responsible for their own death. If a tank/healer messes up / underperforms, they feel responsible for others dying.
I love playing tank.
There is very little that can get me to not enjoy it. But one thing manages: WOW BumRushing. Healer and DDs pulling adds, while my Buttons are on CD. Healer and DDs crying that they are tanking after a pull they did. Packs dying in seconds, mostly before they even hit me once.
Remove the need for speed of dungeons and Tanking will be fun. Punish non tanks for pulling adds. Make encounters hard enough to actually need a tank.
As an added bonus: Make sure a tank is not helpless and useless if he picks to solo for a day. I don't want Wizard kinda DPS, but let me kill a goblin without standing there for 10 Minutes pls.
Feastycentral said:Tanks are usually the least played class in every mmo I have ever played. What changes to tanks or the general gameplay would it take for you to consider playing one over the current role you mostly play? ...
IMO:
For me? The implementation of the Origin ability in Pantheon. (Even if only possible via the character select screen)
Or
Some similar ability, available to all classes, with a/the similar effect & timer. (Not explicitly named 'Origin')
Or
An untradeable consumable (that stacks, in the player inventory) with some similar effect, available to and useable by all classes, with a/the similar effect & timer, via an extremely modest trade from an NPC, available in ~infinite quantity, in every NPC area that has a Bank.
In fact, that would let me consider playing any class that doesn't have a Gate equivalent.
I played a Rogue in EQ1 from launch through to PoP. Then I tried a casting class.
Never again will I pointlessly suffer without being able to return to my bind point, at will.