Jobeson said:Thunderleg said:Gnomes and the state of their being do not mesh well with the rogue.
I think gnome rogues fit just fine if they spin it properly. Make Gnome rogues poison masters. They focus on espionage for intel gathering and assassinations through complex alchemic poisons. It would be a perfect thematic fit to focus on the int side of rogues and not simply dex rogue stabs good.
I feel like reasoning this weak could be applied to literally any class/race combo. Ogres are a perfect thematic fit on the thug side of rogues and not simply dex rogue stabs good. Archai are a perfect thematic fit on the weather resistant side of rogues.
Gnomes are a perfect thematic fit to focus on the int side of bards and not simply charisma makes good music. They fous on the muscial theory, lyrics, and chord combination sides of music.
I don't know how the mastery skill tree will work, or even if it's specifically an actual thing, but I imagine a large, "universal" skill tree, many of which are unlocked by specific quests.
One could include among these skills that are specific to certain race and class combinations, or unlocked by race/class specific Quests.
This way, race/class modifications could be an ongoing form of horizontal advancement relevant at all levels.
For example, I could imagine a skill for Halfling Dire Lords that trades further improvements with Daggers and other short blades for reduced effectiveness with larger weapons. Likewise, Archai Summoners could trade some unique pet advantage for some other specific disadvantage.
Perhaps the infrastructure for something like this is already in place.
BeaverBiscuit said:I feel like reasoning this weak could be applied to literally any class/race combo. Ogres are a perfect thematic fit on the thug side of rogues and not simply dex rogue stabs good. Archai are a perfect thematic fit on the weather resistant side of rogues.
Gnomes are a perfect thematic fit to focus on the int side of bards and not simply charisma makes good music. They fous on the muscial theory, lyrics, and chord combination sides of music.
I don't think rogues are known for weather resistance in pantheon or any game, but it is a perfect reason for Archai to have the Druid, which they do.
Ogres being rogues with warhammers smashing joints and fighting dirty wouldn't be out of the question if VR had that as a playstyle option for the rogue. The other half of the coin though has Ogres priding themselves on fair head to head combat. I feel that is the main reason ogres don't get to be rogues.
Synergy will hurt the gnome rogue and be sub optimal for sure unless they update racials for the rogue. Silence resist on a rogue? Extra mana for a rogue? I would hope they alter the rogue racials somewhat for rogues. I imagine this is going to be a case of the Gnome needs the rogue for lore reasons more than the gnome fits the rogue class.
If VR makes bards arcane casters using mana I would be cool if gnomes had that class. I am thinking Pantheon bards likely won't even be mana based let alone be arcane casters. Rangers and paladins are no longer mana based either so VR is clearly open to the idea of taking classes in new directions.
Jobeson said:I don't think rogues are known for weather resistance in pantheon or any game, but it is a perfect reason for Archai to have the Druid, which they do.
You don't think rogues should be good at slinking about in a rainy/snowy/muggy night? It's not all picking locks and lifting gold objects..
Jobeson said:Ogres being rogues with warhammers smashing joints and fighting dirty wouldn't be out of the question if VR had that as a playstyle option for the rogue. The other half of the coin though has Ogres priding themselves on fair head to head combat. I feel that is the main reason ogres don't get to be rogues.
Gnomes were the good guys, they were put in prison for trying to save their planet, with a peaceful protest. Do such people care for theivery and money?
So the change to rogue was recent.. Like after the gnomes no longer had bodies.
Poison and stealing for basic fleshy needs when you are ethereal..idk. Abandoning the majority of your arcane specialties so you can steal arcane stuff you can no longer use because you learned how to steal stuff...also idk.
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An even closer look at how lore reasons for gnome rogue are beyond me:
"Terminus has brought a return to the unified, workman traits of their ancient brothers and sisters, and the Gnomes may not have been so at peace in all their existence." Peace...rogues..workmen...rogues. Idk.
"diligence and service tend to be the highest Gnome virtues, along with sound innovation. Expansion is not a cultural aim, and the Gnomes have no real enemies.." Again, where are rogues in this? Headstrong ogres can't be rogues, but ethereal, diligent servers can? What is "sound" about stolen innovation? If Expansion is not your aim, why espionage? When you have no real enemies, do you resort to thievery just for the heck of it?
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I'm sorry, but the argument for gnome rogues feels every bit as weak as an argument you can make for any unallowed class/race combo, including archai rogues who are good at resisting weather problems in the dead of night.
Because nature literally weeded out all of the bad gnomes, gnomes are arguably the goodest good guys on terminus, or at least the most zen. Rogues simply do not fit that.
Im not overly scrutinizing at this point.
My only concern is "are you changing it due to peer pressure and the masses want it bacause it will be easier/better"?
OR are you changing it because it fit's better for the lore?
Threre was alot of drama about... what was it "no healers for Gnomes" or something of that sort... PLEASE don't "fix" that for US let us fix that probem ourselves please (read: erergant behavior) NONE of the problems like that can't be worked out, and we as players WILL, if you leave them there for us to work out.+
don't take that opertunity from us please
BeaverBiscuit said:
I am curious about halfling dire-lords. Is there an explanation anywhere for that? They seem pretty happy and upbeat, despite their curse, where direlords are more...edgy. And if halflings are edgy, how come they don't get necros (if they can use blood why not corpses) and paladins (revenge vs wraiths).
I think it was reported somewhere that not Halflings are into pop culture, some of them became goths. /shrug
I like the fact that Humans have it all for subtle, outside the game, learning influence. (whut?) In RL how come there are no vampires? or if any they are extremely well hidden. Humans have a unique ability that makes them donimant in RL: crazy efficient heat exchange on land, Sweating. While in motion. Forward momentum from bipedal stance. What does this mean- from a "nature" perspective? - innate persistence. We have the ability to out run, run-down whatever we are hunting to its death (and there are tribes that still do that). Stamina. Can we say Stamina has influenced the character of persistence? perhaps. So how come there are no vampires? Because when Humans find out the existence of vampires, they hunt them down relentlessly to the death, even across generations. Look at the history of attempted genocide. From a vampire's perspective, they are verrrry afraid of said "prey". Look how we treat the mentally ill. Sure, we are just now making inroads to acceptance but once someone is labeled a Psychopath? locked up for life and we don't stop and we make sure they stay shackled or imprisoned no thanks to Anthony Perkins. Can Psych-AH-pathy (as its now pronounced) be a desireable trait? absolutely. A surgeon is more efficient being dispassionate about getting the task completed correctly, likewise a financier is better suited to handle the roller-coaster of market movements that tend to emotionally drive so many others.-Yes, we need to cut employees...(and it has been noted many corporate heads exhibit some form of psych-ah-pathy). A soldier- self explanatory.
Vampires, Fairies, Leprechauns, Aliens, Big Foot, alternate universes, fairy ring portals. Yeah, maybe at one time but once found out...we can be relentless, brutal and unstoppable to quench our curiosity. Maybe there's a reason why they stay away- have you seen the Atomic bomb? yet marvel at atomic power and how radioactive waste can be stored in the reactor building its generated from safely and does NOT need to be buried at all, ever. Maybe their perspective is: one of human kind has said "imagine a room awash in gasoline and everyone holds matches" and they see us being in that room with those matches and think to best leave us in that room/universe/world, alone.
So yeah, Humans can do it all.
Manouk said:I like the fact that Humans have it all for subtle, outside the game, learning influence. (whut?) In RL how come there are no vampires? or if any they are extremely well hidden. Humans have a unique ability that makes them donimant in RL: crazy efficient heat exchange on land, Sweating. While in motion. Forward momentum from bipedal stance. What does this mean- from a "nature" perspective? - innate persistence. We have the ability to out run, run-down whatever we are hunting to its death (and there are tribes that still do that). Stamina. Can we say Stamina has influenced the character of persistence? perhaps. So how come there are no vampires? Because when Humans find out the existence of vampires, they hunt them down relentlessly to the death, even across generations. Look at the history of attempted genocide. From a vampire's perspective, they are verrrry afraid of said "prey". Look how we treat the mentally ill. Sure, we are just now making inroads to acceptance but once someone is labeled a Psychopath? locked up for life and we don't stop and we make sure they stay shackled or imprisoned no thanks to Anthony Perkins. Can Psych-AH-pathy (as its now pronounced) be a desireable trait? absolutely. A surgeon is more efficient being dispassionate about getting the task completed correctly, likewise a financier is better suited to handle the roller-coaster of market movements that tend to emotionally drive so many others.-Yes, we need to cut employees...(and it has been noted many corporate heads exhibit some form of psych-ah-pathy). A soldier- self explanatory.
Vampires, Fairies, Leprechauns, Aliens, Big Foot, alternate universes, fairy ring portals. Yeah, maybe at one time but once found out...we can be relentless, brutal and unstoppable to quench our curiosity. Maybe there's a reason why they stay away- have you seen the Atomic bomb? yet marvel at atomic power and how radioactive waste can be stored in the reactor building its generated from safely and does NOT need to be buried at all, ever. Maybe their perspective is: one of human kind has said "imagine a room awash in gasoline and everyone holds matches" and they see us being in that room with those matches and think to best leave us in that room/universe/world, alone.
So yeah, Humans can do it all.
Well that works when you compare humans to cows or anything less smart and less gifted in changing their environment. We're comparing bipedal humanoids to each others, which makes the whole argument pretty irrelevant...
BeaverBiscuit said:You don't think rogues should be good at slinking about in a rainy/snowy/muggy night? It's not all picking locks and lifting gold objects..
No, no I don't. Nothing in Pantheon lore has said rogues are particularly skilled at difficult terrains. Furthermore I have not seen any game that gives bonuses to such terrains for a rogue. It would be like asking if I think rogues should be good at slinking about in bright light, I clearly do not. Rogues have plenty of tropes you can pick from all over gaming culture. Thieves, investigators, trappers, assassins, dirty fighters, scoundrels, skill monkies (lol gnomes do have a bonus to learning skills) arcane tricksters, snipers, etc. You are making up your own random tie in that not only doesn't fit Pantheon lore but it doesn't fit the near endless rogue lore from other games.
BeaverBiscuit said:Gnomes were the good guys, they were put in prison for trying to save their planet, with a peaceful protest. Do such people care for theivery and money?
So the change to rogue was recent.. Like after the gnomes no longer had bodies.
Two of the things we do know though is they went from having failing bodies to moving their souls into new bodies, so they were never bodiless. We also know there was a rift between factions on the planet of gnomes was massive. The gnomish race was fighting over their magical resource. The gnomes of this time were obtaining resouces even at the detriment to their race/planet.
Any group of people need investigators and spies when there are multiple factions hiding their gains and willing to steal from other factions. How can you be so sure the surviving gnomes would never used gnomes specialized at espionage to learn what was going on?
The only races that don't have rogues currently are the race idolizing proud ferocious warriors and the race idolizing valor and honor. I don't get how the game lore we know about somehow compares with your belief rogues should gain the ability to meld with nature.
Jobeson said:No, no I don't. Nothing in Pantheon lore has said rogues are particularly skilled at difficult terrains. Furthermore I have not seen any game that gives bonuses to such terrains for a rogue. It would be like asking if I think rogues should be good at slinking about in bright light, I clearly do not. Rogues have plenty of tropes you can pick from all over gaming culture. Thieves, investigators, trappers, assassins, dirty fighters, scoundrels, skill monkies (lol gnomes do have a bonus to learning skills) arcane tricksters, snipers, etc. You are making up your own random tie in that not only doesn't fit Pantheon lore but it doesn't fit the near endless rogue lore from other games.
well, yea, in games survival elements like getting sick from the rain are generally frowned upon. In general, other games are a bad compass for Pantheon, anyways. Books for example still have rogues that have weather problems, though. As does common sense.
Rogues should definitely have the ability to meld with nature. They are rogues. They are out, stealing food or dealing with the faceless affairs of nations, when everyone else is in or elsewhere.
Jobeson said:Two of the things we do know though is they went from having failing bodies to moving their souls into new bodies, so they were never bodiless. We also know there was a rift between factions on the planet of gnomes was massive. The gnomish race was fighting over their magical resource. The gnomes of this time were obtaining resouces even at the detriment to their race/planet.
Any group of people need investigators and spies when there are multiple factions hiding their gains and willing to steal from other factions. How can you be so sure the surviving gnomes would never used gnomes specialized at espionage to learn what was going on?
The only races that don't have rogues currently are the race idolizing proud ferocious warriors and the race idolizing valor and honor. I don't get how the game lore we know about somehow compares with your belief rogues should gain the ability to meld with nature.
Ethereal bodies that are literally souls possessing a mask don't quite count as bodies to me, sorry I wasn't more clear. I meant fleshy bodies.
Which brings forward the point that those who lack fleshy bodies might also lack the classic motivations rogues have:
Why do they need poisons for their masks? Why do they need to resort to thievery when they arguably don't have physical needs like the rest of us?
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Again, the now-ethereal gnomes enacted a peaceful protest, they literally made a "pleading" petition. The inner sun-thing was very clearly taking damage, and all gnomes on that side of the crust were making use of it's energy. Espionage not needed. They weren't fighting.
"All too quickly the powers of Elos Fire were sought in gluttonous measure by the Archanos, their personal cravings overtaking a discernment for all Gnomes. Foreseeing disaster, a splinter of the Gnomes petitioned the Elderhood to restrict the use of Elos Fire, pleading that the Gnomes retreat for a brief time outside the inner crust." We are talking highly intelligent and morally just researchers.
Even dumb people on top wouldn't kill themselves if they knew for sure that the sun-thing was gonna scorch everyone. That's why they put our peaceful protesters in prison-they were mocking them and wanted to stop them from making too much anti-profit noise, which they felt was unwarranted.
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And yea, of course the gnomes wouldn't specialise at espionage if they are as aloof as my earlier quotes should have made apparent. Gnomes don't care about the other races beyond adventuring buddies.
some more quotes, from the rogue description this time:
" Rogues are sought out for the faceless affairs of nations"-Why does a group with no real enemies and no desire for expansion care?
"As melee specialists, Rogues have trained extensively with one-handed weapons, but are most deadly with a dagger in their main hand, plunged deep into the back of their enemy." You are telling me that innovation focused, incredibly intelligent floating masks, with no real enemies, are gonna train extensively with one-handed weapons? Also, do gnomes even arguably have an exploitable back?
"unravels her enemies with terrifying efficiency." Again, no real enemies, I get that every class is gonna kill things, but learning how to do it with "terrifying efficiency" with weapons that aren't spells seems like a very long shot for the aloof gnomes.
"And fewer still who can disappear in the wake of such carnage as if they were never there" honest workmen commiting carnage, really?
"Combat Resource: Endurance, Opportunity" Where does gnomish incredible intelligence, as an actual magical being, come in here? Very enduring floating masks we have here...
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Also, since you hate the archai rogue weather thing so much, I found a different argument for archai rogues for you that are every bit as good as the current arguments for gnome rogues:
"On Terminus, they are renowned for their culture of endurance, poise and intrepidness, as well as a robust legacy of jubilation, song and display. They are said to entice danger like sport, while their people thrive on the wildly diverse island realm of Su’Roa, which means “little home”."
"entice danger like sport", yea it fits rogues. "endurance", literally a rogue resource, it fits.
The thing about valor, uprising, and celebration is about their heritage, specifically. We don't always use the things we inherit well, or as intended. "Honor" was only used once in the Archai description, and it wasn't used how you are using it.
Also, don't you think the archai could have used espionage and assasination in their violent uprising? Finally "How can you be so sure the surviving" archai "would never used" archai "specialized at espionage to learn what was going on?"
Mauvais_Oeil said:Manouk said:I like the fact that Humans have it all for subtle, outside the game, learning influence. (whut?) In RL how come there are no vampires? or if any they are extremely well hidden. Humans have a unique ability that makes them donimant in RL: crazy efficient heat exchange on land, Sweating. While in motion. Forward momentum from bipedal stance. What does this mean- from a "nature" perspective? - innate persistence. We have the ability to out run, run-down whatever we are hunting to its death (and there are tribes that still do that). Stamina. Can we say Stamina has influenced the character of persistence? perhaps. So how come there are no vampires? Because when Humans find out the existence of vampires, they hunt them down relentlessly to the death, even across generations. Look at the history of attempted genocide. From a vampire's perspective, they are verrrry afraid of said "prey". Look how we treat the mentally ill. Sure, we are just now making inroads to acceptance but once someone is labeled a Psychopath? locked up for life and we don't stop and we make sure they stay shackled or imprisoned no thanks to Anthony Perkins. Can Psych-AH-pathy (as its now pronounced) be a desireable trait? absolutely. A surgeon is more efficient being dispassionate about getting the task completed correctly, likewise a financier is better suited to handle the roller-coaster of market movements that tend to emotionally drive so many others.-Yes, we need to cut employees...(and it has been noted many corporate heads exhibit some form of psych-ah-pathy). A soldier- self explanatory.
Vampires, Fairies, Leprechauns, Aliens, Big Foot, alternate universes, fairy ring portals. Yeah, maybe at one time but once found out...we can be relentless, brutal and unstoppable to quench our curiosity. Maybe there's a reason why they stay away- have you seen the Atomic bomb? yet marvel at atomic power and how radioactive waste can be stored in the reactor building its generated from safely and does NOT need to be buried at all, ever. Maybe their perspective is: one of human kind has said "imagine a room awash in gasoline and everyone holds matches" and they see us being in that room with those matches and think to best leave us in that room/universe/world, alone.
So yeah, Humans can do it all.
Well that works when you compare humans to cows or anything less smart and less gifted in changing their environment. We're comparing bipedal humanoids to each others, which makes the whole argument pretty irrelevant...
Not to bring you down or anything, but compared to other bipedal humans like, in Rwanda, or, bipedal human followers of an abrahamic religion around the '40's or something going on with the Urghurs in the far east- there is - what some may call a mythical story involving Cannanites?- if your saying its not complete, you're right (except maybe for the cannanites). im saying it still gets pretty nasty to be feared.
