Would you change anything or are you happy with the changes made? (keeping Terminus lore in mind!) #MMORPG #CommunityMatters #games
I'm mostly agreeing with Skar rangers. The explanation fits what we know, the race being predatorial in nature.
About elf clerics, while from my understanding the elves worship nature (their holy tree) rather gods directly, they still follow their pantheon. So clerics are OK for me lore-wise. And they certainly have reason to seek vengeance for the horror they experienced, so paladins make sense as well.
Dark Myr paladins make a lot of sense to me, considering the race has clerics already. And since Pantheon paladins aren't neccessarily "always must do good" types, but instead more avenger types, they certainly fit the Dark Myr's lore.
Archai summoners are a bit questionable to me. Yeah they are certainly attuned to the elements, but from my understanding they really are about freedom, and as such the "enslaving" of summoned entities is something I can't imagine an Archai doing.
And Halfling dire lords? From all we know, halflings are a race of mirth, not terror. While they have a connection with the "dark side" through their curse, I still think this option is questionable.
I'm glad you guys took the time to adapt the matrix though, and take some of the player feedback into consideration. Cheers!
Totally ignoring the lore (sorry) I note that no class has less than 4 races that can choose it and no class has more than 7. From a gameplay perspective that feels about right.
The racial balance is less even - with humans able to do all 14 classes but ogres at the other extreme able to do only 4 classes, halflings and gnomes five classes and so on.
So *many* MMOs stereotype the prime racial benefit of being human as flexibility - able to do almost anything while not necessarily the best at anything. Lore can't possibly have anything to do with this - developers must assume more people want to play as human than any of the more exotic races and so they let humans be any class. Since the assumption is almost surely correct - this makes perfect sense.
Plus it works well for me. I almost always ignore large races - they block too much of the screen unless I zoom too far out. I almost always ignore very small races - the camera angles tend to hurt my neck after a while. Plus in many MMOs humans have the hair styles that suit my preferences the most (note I didn't say "best" it is highly subjective). So quite possibly all of mine will wind up as human females. I will never win the Pantheon diversity award.
I think Archai should lose bard.
I think Myr should have either enchanter or bard but not both (siren's make sense and do the same thing).
I think Myr should have necromancer but not summoner (necromancer makes sense, the accidental drowned, etc)
I think Elves should lose Warrior.
I think Myr should lose Paladin.
If you are going to give Elves warrior, then Elves lose Paladin and Myr gain Paladin but lose Warrior. - Class specific skill: 2H spear for Paladin. (Trident being the coveted thing for Myr)
I think Elves should lose Shaman (they live too long to have to deal with esoteric spirits)
Toss up on Dwarves. I get the bard- drinking songs. But enchanter? Ok, I get it, the transmutation of metals but that seems more alchemical to me. If you need a caster maybe shaman? potions and rogues maybe some synergies there. Wisdom as limericks from the spiritual ancients (Tombstone humor/wisdom/last words: "they couldn't hit an elephant from this dist-" Gen. John Sedgewick.)
I want to take either Summoner or Wizard away from Elves, (preferrably summoner) but I'll leave what Elves have to better minds.
*edit* Please also consider the crucial and exquisite racial -oomphs-. Humans may have all classes but they also may be very frail to everything and they will need more of everything, *in character of Mr. Smith in "The Matrix" speaking to Morpheus* "breeding like vermin, constantly growing and expanding consuming everything, the stink of them..." and contrarilly the conjectured RL comparison as to why vampires don't exist today: is because once Humans are aware of them they hunt them down- even accross generations- untill dead and never EVER cease. More just keep coming, routing every dark corner and cranny, thats why IF there are any vampires left? they are living in constant fear, keeping very close to the vest yet constantly being out-done by science, technology, genetic research, mutated pathogens that Humans created! and accidentally were released- teflon blood or "black blood"- no matter how hard vampires try to surgically squash it, it is uncanny how one human can come up with an idea and another human can have the SAME idea at the SAME time in another area or continent- ask anyone in education/teaching.
Regarding other races: like those with certain disabilities that allow other senses to compensate for the disability, so may other races have innates that way overcompensate for what can be perceived as a disability. Take ogres, (please!- ha ha) they may be so thick skinned and other-minded (not addle-minded) that magic have little or no effect, The assumption that they are immune to stun is just that, an assumption. In Terminus they may very well be able to get stunned but have innate reflex actions that are deadly maybe an autonomic response. *stun*- lash out strangle deathgrip.
Plus I think there is practicality to humans having it all so-to-speak. Many flocked to one race in certain MMO's when it started up. Perhaps the psychology will be the same and people will flock to humans, after all their avatar can look like them, too. The hard core "pros", the crucial element that will make Terminus more alive- like you all :) will probably get all racial and populate everything BUT humans. Thank goodness. And coincidentally play them well to the awe of thoise that did not choose that race because of the limitations. Bring those class limitations on, I know people who appreciate a challenge. We are all just human after all.
Sarim said:I'm mostly agreeing with Skar rangers. The explanation fits what we know, the race being predatorial in nature.
And animalistic. Yeah I like this one too.
Sarim said:Archai summoners are a bit questionable to me. Yeah they are certainly attuned to the elements, but from my understanding they really are about freedom, and as such the "enslaving" of summoned entities is something I can't imagine an Archai doing.
I can see poerhaps the Archai would treat their 'pets' as an equal and/or partner in adventure. Especially since summoner pets in Pantheon will be much more than 'throwaway' tanks: They will progress/grow with the summoner and be equipped with as much care as the character is. Original summoning could have been an 'invite', like a wizard's familiar?, more than a demand. It would perhaps be more like a symbiosis or a bond forged over time like a friend or brother even.
Sarim said:And Halfling dire lords? From all we know, halflings are a race of mirth, not terror. While they have a connection with the "dark side" through their curse, I still think this option is questionable.
This one is intriguing, yes. I'm looking at it from the view of halflings having a dark side and mirth/humour can be dark and mischievious as much as merry. Maybe the Maidyn Clan, who continue the vendetta against the wraiths outside the halfling homeland (and have little interest in the ways of Wild's End), have learned the power of fear and the uses of blood magic while studying their enemy?
IMO:
I *think* this is correct.. (it could all be wrong, but.. this is what I saw in 5 minutes of effort)
Well, the upload an image script for the site is failing (again), so I'll just link it from postimage.
I left the positions of all the categories for easier comparison, despite the sorting/order changing for some.
As far as what actually changed, I believe this is a summary:
From what I can see, compared to 2017..
Dark Myr lost 1, gained 2.
Elf gained 2
Archai gained 1
Skar gained 1
Halfling lost 1, gained 1.
Stats: ~55 months, 9 changes results in 1 race/class matrix change every ~6 months, as an average. :)
Riffing off of Manouk, The base archetypes could have their own racial flavor as in a Dark Myr Siren (bard/enchanter) with techniques in trident usage.
The mischievous nature of Halflings could easily bleed over into darker undertones, especially since Tehom referenced a connection to the Dire...
Ogre is getting the short end of the stick.
I could go on, but the update to the Matrix is appreciated. Now if we could get a talent calculator since Tehom said the kits are planned out 'til 50...!
Thunderleg said:
Riffing off of Manouk, The base archetypes could have their own racial flavor as in a Dark Myr Siren (bard/enchanter) with techniques in trident usage.
The mischievous nature of Halflings could easily bleed over into darker undertones, especially since Tehom referenced a connection to the Dire...
Ogre is getting the short end of the stick.
I could go on, but the update to the Matrix is appreciated. Now if we could get a talent calculator since Tehom said the kits are planned out 'til 50...!
Maybe Ogre racials (stats/passives) will be so good that most people will want to go Ogre even if they were considering other races.
Kilsin said:Would you change anything or are you happy with the changes made? (keeping Terminus lore in mind!) #MMORPG #CommunityMatters #games
I think that Humans having every class choice is bad. It's a lazy choice, frankly, and one that really makes no sense. Also, I disagree that a race that has Cleric can also have Shaman.
Skar now having Ranger gives the Skar a full melee-heavy group composition option: Warrior, DireLord, Shaman, Rogue, Ranger, Monk. That's a lot of survivability as melee always have more HP and better defensive capabilities than Casters and nearly always have less downtime than casters. It's got solid tanking and with the Monk can mean you could potentialy handle 3 mobs, briefly. The DPS will be insane and with the Shaman being a melee focused buffer/debuffer, it will benefit this group composition quite a bit.
I like it overall
It's cool that the city elves can learn to worship gods, and that the dark myr godkillers are ironically great clerics as well.
Ogres I think will be very powerful with their strength-to-damage and stun resistance so it makes sense to restrict their classes from a balance perspective.
My complaints center around the little people.
I am curious about halfling dire-lords. Is there an explanation anywhere for that? They seem pretty happy and upbeat, despite their curse, where direlords are more...edgy. And if halflings are edgy, how come they don't get necros (if they can use blood why not corpses) and paladins (revenge vs wraiths).
Also as the most outwardly charismatic race, (though humans have better charisma passives for some reason I don't understand) its a shame we won't see halfling enchanters.
Finally..you still have gnome rogues. Do they even have a poor societal class that needs to resort to stealing from other gnomes when they arguably don't consume food? Do gnomes even need good shelter? Why, when you are a master of magic without the needs of normal life, would you resort to poison and thievery?
Since the change gives players more choices, I think that's good. As far as there being lore reasons for each class being available,for any particular race, I think that's just silly. The most egregious example is the old trope of humans can do anything. It's just so overdone. The idea that an Oger can only have four choices, and a halfling and gnome five is sad. I am still excited for Pantheon, but I think someone is patting themselves on the back a bit much on this one.
Questaar said:
As far as there being lore reasons for each class being available,for any particular race, I think that's just silly.
I really cannot disagree with this more. Lore is the ONLY reason for racial restriction in class. Lore is the underpinning for every decision make in an RPG. If class decisions are made without regard to lore then why even have the lore which leads to one to ask why even have the game?
While an argument could be made to not allow humans to be able to be certain classes (if the reasoning made sense lore-wise) I'm all for it. I'm going to play a dwarf and have to issues with being restricted as to class.
BeaverBiscuit said:Finally..you still have gnome rogues. Do they even have a poor societal class that needs to resort to stealing from other gnomes when they arguably don't consume food? Do gnomes even need good shelter? Why, when you are a master of magic without the needs of normal life, would you resort to poison and thievery?
This is a really fine observation. Why Gnome rogues? It shouldn't be to just pad out the race's classes. Ogres only have 4 (I think) classes. Dire Lord makes as much sense as Rogue and the whole use of blood seems to rule that class out for the Gnome. Just to be clear I'm not suggesting Gnomes be Dire Lords, I'm sure that discussion has been had some time in the past.
If the odd class and race combinations are supposed to be rooted in Lore, and deliberately intended to contrast how different races play the same class, I would accomplish this using Lore, Quests and Gear.
For example, Archai Summoners are conflicted because they enslave creatures made for that purpose, when the Archai themselves were made to be slaves for others. You could have a Quest Line that forces them to confront this history. How did a Slave become a Master, and what were the consequences? The rewards would be some non-tradeable Archai Summoner gear that radically alters some aspect of how they handle Pets.
The advantage of using Race Class specific gear is that it minimizes scope creep, and can be introduced over time.
Alternately, there could be horizontal Race Class Mastery Progression, but this could be scope creep, and would be harder to introduce in pieces.
Just take every odd Race Class combination, and match it with Lore, Quests, and Gear, from vengeful Dark Myr Paladins, tiny Shire Lords with Daggers of Bleeding, to Skar Rangers dominating wildlife that lives in fear of them.
Lore before Scope Creep!
Not a fan of the new rigid religious cleric/paladin elves, I liked them as a fully nature based culture. I'd have rather seen cleric/paladin go to Archai who are "Devout and sincere." More than that I hate that those two classes are basically hard linked together as I think Paladin would fit great instead of Dire Lord for Halfling.
I don't really get the Dire Lord for Halfling angle and at the very least would have preferred them keeping warrior.
BeaverBiscuit said:I am curious about halfling dire-lords. Is there an explanation anywhere for that? They seem pretty happy and upbeat, despite their curse, where direlords are more...edgy. And if halflings are edgy, how come they don't get necros (if they can use blood why not corpses) and paladins (revenge vs wraiths).
I think it's because the Paladins derived from ex-Clerics and Clerics require gods, which halflings don't follow?
BeaverBiscuit said:Also as the most outwardly charismatic race, (though humans have better charisma passives for some reason I don't understand) its a shame we won't see halfling enchanters.
I would imagine it's not just about *having* charisma, but about using it to subjugate, control and variously mind-diddle others? Also about having arcane magic tendancies, which they don't really?
Nature and Blood magic? Apparently ok *shrug*
BeaverBiscuit said:Finally..you still have gnome rogues. Do they even have a poor societal class that needs to resort to stealing from other gnomes when they arguably don't consume food? Do gnomes even need good shelter? Why, when you are a master of magic without the needs of normal life, would you resort to poison and thievery?
Hmm good one. I would like to hear the lore on this one. I mean I guess gnomes have *some* source of sustenance and need homes for reasons other than to avoid exposure to the elements. Poison is a bit odd yeah, though knowing how to kill other races is useful... Hmm.
Ok, "Imo", a good example would be for the Ogre. They only have four class choices. They're able to use magic. They are Shaman. They're generally considered evil. Why aren't they Necros? A Necro is, imo, kind of the opposite of a Shaman. In the Ogre description Rothu, clan lord, .....is whispering secrets of the runes. Sounds evil...to me. This ,imo, only an opinion, could be used to justify a Necro.
Well these Ogres are different you say. In the Lore of the Ogre it is said Ogres have "unmatched respect for valor and courage." This part of lore would be a reason for there to be a Cleric and Paladin Ogre. But there's not.
I think the lore of the game is a really fun part of the game. Where I disagree with Troicheil is that I think someone could use lore to justify anything.
I also think there should be more than four classes for the Ogre race.
Like Questaar, I appreciate that players have more choice. Like Thunderleg, I still think that Ogres are getting the short end of the stick.
The limitation of a race that can't fill all four roles would seem to me to be a disadvantage for groups of friends who wish to start the game together by choosing the same race, as well as an early obstacle for the players starting as that race to experience the effectiveness and advantages of grouping. Potentially even a reduced market for beginning Crafters in those starting cities.
Gnomes and Ogres are the only races out of the nine that can't fill all four group roles. The plan- stated in the past - to have the Gnomes' starting city located close to and in the same zone as the Dwarves' starting city goes a long way to ameliorating that issue for them. But so far we've heard of nothing similar for the Ogres.
Perhaps having the The Broken Maw and Skargol much closer together on Reignfall than the old atlas suggested could be a solution. I hope something along those lines is in the plans.
As a former max-level Gnome warrior, I know for an undisputed fact that small races make the best warriors. For this reason, I'm sad that Halflings no longer have the warrior option. To bolster my argument, I would direct the reader to the well-known case of a certain small green pointy-eared dude with syntax issues who rose from obscurity to become the greatest Jedi master and lightsaber duelist in the entire galaxy. Was this in spite of his size, or because of it? Obviously the latter. Little warrior = big coolness. 'Nuff said.
Also, I think it would be cool if Ogres could be necros.
Otherwise, I like the matrix a lot. :)
Great overall. Best suited for paladins, I'm just wondering about some of the most obnoxious choices beeing :
-Dark Myr Paladin
-Halfling Dire Lord
But theses will be explained throught lore glimpses and such and I'm really curious about it.
As some other mensionned, I think Ogres would do decent Rangers but I'm not entirely sold on it, the main thing is mostly that there is no "might" oriented melee DPS which would have suited ogres nicely.
I also believe Humans shouldn't have access to Shamans, partially because they seem like a younger race and not so inclined to tap into ancestry, but also because without numerous cities and settlements, I doubt any race can maintain multiple cults of multiple different concepts, remember EQ : Most races had only one priest class (cleric/druid/shaman) except fews, and of one I remember it was only half elves and humans, because Surefall glade was basically an "alternative" faith area.
The changes make sense. I especially support adding Paladin for Dark Myr. Both are about vengeance, righting a perceived injustice, and both have a tendency for zealotry.
I wouldn't take anything from Dark Myr, since it looks to be a signature race for the game and I also like the idea that the number of classes isn't balanced by race. Some races have almost all while others are more limited, adding to variation which makes the game world feel real.
Archai Bard makes sense to me, since oppressed peoples tend to use song as a way to help cope. Also, their glowing lights could offer interest visual reverberation with their music.
I would definitely add gnome monk, since they are the masters of physical self-awareness (existing in a pseudo-coporeal form). They aren't using strength, but rather their mastery shape and form itself.
I would remove Warrior from Elves and replace it with Monk as well.
I give my go-ahead for alpha with this matrix .
We can return at a later date to discuss the full race utilization of the Bard class. A full representation concert had to happen at some time. And a Ogre prancing along smashing a tanned hide bass drum is something to behold.
I feel with the Lore, Dwarves would make sense to get summoner. Reading the Dwarven lore, and then the Summoner description, they make perfect sense. I normally wouldn't think of Dwarves in such a way but in Pantheon where the lore is supposed to be key, it just makes too much sense and seams odd that they don't have summoners.
"Believing peace is a product of strength, the Dwarves seek not an empire, but to increase their mastery in smithing, the arcane as well as battle" & "From that beacon their legacy as champions, mystics, artisans story tellers and unfailing companions" tie that with the summoner description of "The summoner has developed a powerful Arcane command"
I can imagine Dwarven summoners conjuring and fashioning with great skill their armour and weapons for their archamentals both with arcane magic and skill with the forge, being seekers of the arcane and masters of smithing. Summoning their stone archamentals a form of creation much like the dwarves were created just lesser than their god king did to create them. Summoning walls of Wood & Stone, thought arcane arts to halt their enemies progress and protect their companions.
I Also feel that the Ranger class is needed for Whitethaws continent, every class has a presence on all 3 continents apart from the ranger who is only available on Reignfall and Kingsreach. Even the paladin now can be found on all three continents, with the Dark Myr getting them in this latest update. I would love to see Dwarves get rangers, rangers would be great for patrolling around Khadassa, fetching food and supplies for Khazas reach. The other option is to give the Archai the ranger class, I would just love to see the ranger available much like all the other classes to people starting on Whitethaw.
The Rogue, on the other hand, seams to make little sense for the Dwarves, I could see that being taken away in place of a Ranger. Dwarves are loyal, honourable and unwavering companions it just does not sit well with me, a Dwarf of such reputation sneaking around, stabbing people in the back, making deals in the dark and dealing with the lowest of scum. I cannot find in any of the lore a reason that Dwarves have the rogue class available, while other such options make much more sense.
(Edit for spelling & grammar)
