Adrenicus said:I think he was referring to the PvE servers on Classic WoW on which it was still possible to PvP but you had to 'flag' yourself as being PvP.
Ohhh, I get it!
Sounds like something that'd be pretty easy to apply to a faction or ffa basis tbh. Granted i have no idea about how PvE players would feel about that kind of thing. I doubt I'd use it if I ended up playing on the PvE server but I also don't think it bothers anyone that doesn't want to use it (maybe I'm wrong *shrug*).
But oh man, semi-OT sidenote, the faction mechanic on the WoW PvE servers is weird. Like I just can't wrap my head around what the faction distinction is even for. Apparently the PvP servers (and PvP in general) were an afterthought, so i can't understand how they figured Horde and Alliance players not being able to group or even communicate for no discernable reason was necessary.
TheWingless said:Jothany said:disposalist said: and there being tons of good PvP focused games already out there (and more coming - Asheron's Call looks great - if you want PvP).As a long time ACer, this just jumped out at me. Have you heard something about Warner Bros. 'officially' exploring that possibility, or are you referring to an Emulator?
I noticed tha too! I'm pretty sure it's a typo and they were referring to Ashes of Creation though lol
Oh, gods! Sorry to mislead! Yes, I meant the up-coming Ashes of Creation!
While I love PVP games, I have noticed a problematic trend with games that try to combine PVP and PVE. In every case I can think of the PVE aspect of the game ends up suffering in order to accomodate the PVP aspects of the game. The most common reason cited is "PVP Balance" It tends to push the classes toward normalized damage, and bland identical toolkits with different skins.
I backed the game because of there being PvP allowed in a PvE focused game - which reminded me of exactly what EQ was. I played on vallon, and loved the team dynamic, the heightened sense of danger when invading other factions areas, and in general always having to be aware of your surroundings, while having an instant bond with people on your team just because you had a common enemy.
Even the times it sucked are some of my fondest memories...much higher level / geared comes and crushes you, so you get everyone in the area to hunt them down alongside you. It created a dynamic of teamwork outside of your group / guild and made the game tons of fun. And being on the other end was fun too - invading and being hunted by the entire zone just because you were there. I liked how much more exciting new areas were when you knew that they weren't controlled by your faction, and just being there even if the area is well below your level was dangerous.
So in the poll that keeps getting mentioned, I also would prefer a PvE focused game with PvP, but I loose interest if PvP isn't there at all. I want to mostly kill NPCs, but with the added danger of other players and the thrill of seeking out an enemy that isn't an NPC. I don't care much about balance (original EQ was crazy imbalanced in PvP) - playing both the underdog and the OP classes had their own advantages. My shaman sucked at PvP but grouping was instant. My SK rocked PvP but it was harder to get a group. Both were fun to play, and I wanted to play both for their own advantages.
So in short, please have a team based PvP server. Anyone who doesn't like PvP is welcome to play on the (I'm sure many) PvE only servers.
As a CareBear, I am not against being thrust into a PvP server provided I am not randomly ganked, and that all people in Terminus are good people and follow the unwritten rules. What unwritten rules you say? why, those of genteel etiquette that say: Whilst I am PvE-ing and battling said orcs, you will not also attack me. Rather you will wait until I am done with said orcs and then make sure you have my attention saying something like: "what ho good Yoeman, fancy a bit of sport?, I dare say my blade can dispatch yon personage quite steadfastly" If I refuse that is honored and I suffer any jeers that may come, if I accept, we then face each other as equals. Should an aggravated NPC wander in while we are dueling, then it is understood we will bind a temporary truce to defeat the common enemy before resuming our duel - with no rest.
Is this what you mean by Hybrid?
However, from what I understand this defeats - I would say- 25% of the attraction of a PvP server. and in a hybrid situation this cannot be policed in any way except socially but then the damage is already done and might as well just say: PvP, to heck with any kind of PvP/PvE hybrid nonsense.
If its any consolation, I would say to the Devs: keep going the way you're going but make NO consession to classes in PvP (muahahahaha) No balance. Suck it up and deal, you want PvP? you got it. Choose your friends wisely, plan ahead. Wanna play a wizard? great, can use the Burst DPS, use the PantheonFinder tool to be on when your tank and healer friends are on. if you ONLY use the PantheonFinder tool for that? its worth it. Otherwise, enter at your own risk, its a jungle out there. Also, Since we all love gangster movies? have NPC faction matter AND guild/player faction matter. If one of your guildies whacks some average joe, all your guildies see that on a kill list (a la fortnite?) if that average joe becomes "made" by joining a guild? that becomes a faction hit on that guild and the guild the average joe joined now has a faction mark against your guild that they didn't have before. So as a guild leader, you may have alot of members with a high body count sure, showing skill but if all of a sudden that body count turns into a whopping negative faction against one new guild that formed? you need to start worrying about some payback, maybe think about having a sit-down, maybe think about forming alliances with guilds where your faction hits aren't so high....IF it can be done development-wise.
(my assumptions, no basis in fact->)Nice that the pantheonFinder tool is just after char select screen and before game entry so you can input your Details like time zone and time of day playing, I put in 10am to 1pm Sun, Mon & Thurs on day one and whoah! there are at least 4 groups I can fill out plus more people at edge times- (I dont work a typical 9-5 in europe) I chose not to fill out the other details, maybe if I decide to join a guild I may put in sports teams or hobbies but I dont know if I want to get that involved, just knowing who is on at my times is great.
For PvE? the same but if you want to duel another player its a one on one choice that has to be agreed instead of always on. NPC can still wander by and aggro randomly. no player/guild faction thingy.
@manouk
this was talked about a long time ago but i'll reiterate it bc i have the memory of an ant and some of my opinions have changed.
a hybrid system would be something along the lines of a pve server where no one can attack each other.
a player can flag for pvp to kill non flagged players at the consequence of becoming an outlaw.
non flagged players can kill flagged players without consequence.
to keep the system simple, outlaws will have a stacking debuff for each player they kill and can't unflag until the debuff is gone. vice versa if they are killed this debuff time is reduced. something similar to how my iphone gets upset when put in my password wrong too many times.
outlaws can party or raid up so they can't be killed by players in that group, however, can still be killed by non flagged players outside the group.
outlaws can't be targeted by guild members nor can they attack guild members.
outlaws would not be able to talk to ANY npcs. this means no vendors, no repairing, no questing.
outlaws can't kill npcs. this prevents dum things. its pvp. keep the poor npcs out of it.
outlaws can kill other outlaws, but this will not reduce their debuff time.
a more advance implementation would be guild vs guild declaration of war that would require a resource cost to keep the war going.
the cost can be compounding the longer the war declaration stays up to prevent permanment forced pvp.
the system could be fine tuned to prevent abuse, but this would be a rough system.
i would prefer this system over a pure free for all player vs player anything goes. most of the time i don't want to be bathing in the blood of players, but would serve as a tool to settle disputes.
There are many views of how a hybrid server should work. Stellarmind's view doesn't strike me as hybrid at all it strikes me as a completely pvp server with a few rules that discourage but do not prevent ganking of people going about their business and not wanting to pvp at all.
My own ideal ruleset for a "hybrid" server would be that pvp is allowed almost everywhere and at almost any time. Perhaps with the "outlaw" system stellarmind proposes, perhaps with a faction-based system - but the key differentiation from a pve server being that pvp is not limited to arenas or specific pvp zones. It is essentially server-wide.
My proposed difference from a true pvp server is that any player could flag for pve. Or, to say the same exact thing a bit differently, could unflag from pvp. Gaining complete immunity from pvp attacks, not merely discouraging pvp attacks. Thus on such a server I could flag for pvp and play under the pvp ruleset, or flag for pve and play as if there was no pvp. That is my idea of "hybrid".
I can easily see stellarmind or others jumping right in with an outraged reply discussing how unfair it would be to let someone who had engaged in pvp to unflag and escape the consequences and risks of their own actions. In this, they would be entirely correct. There would need to be strict limits. Perhaps no unflagging for X hours or days after the most recent pvp activity. Measured in time on-line not time logged off. Perhaps no ability to engage in any pvp activity whatsoever until reflagged for pvp and no ability to reflag for X hours or days on-line. So our characters could be either pvp or pve flagged but not switch between the modes very easily. I note that I have dabbled in pvp in various MMOs over the years but am more a carebear by inclination whereas stellarmind is ....not ..... and has far more experience with how things should work on a pvp server.
@dorotea
OwO
the system is so i can pve without some monkey stealing my mobs, griefing my party or quest grind without any reprecussions. my mentality is pve first, diplomacy fails then military action can be taken. too many times i've played on a pve server to be trolled by other players of the same faction. this is why i prefer systems that target individuals rather than an entire faction that has nothing to do with an isolated incident.
pvp fights are usually unfair dorotea :/ but it sure feels good what you kick someone in the nuts thats is punching down >=D
wow swotr daoc and eq pvp systems should not be used as a comparsion for how to handle pvp in a pve centric mmo. this isn't a fair thing to say, but alot of players on these forums have issues with old pvp systems and want to push things that historically do not work in other games.
i understand that it left a bad taste, but unless you have personally played and tested recent punishment pvp systems or something similar, i can't even take the suggestions seriously. in fact i'd probably troll how bad the idea is.
while some of the more recent mmos still use a modified legacy setups, such as tera, blade and soul, eso, the next generation of how pvp should be handled has come a long way and the competition is very tight. if the goal of pantheon is going to be a next generation mmo, it must include pvpers. mmo is massive multiplayer that includes as many players as possible.
black desert i would say has a unique system of handling things, but they don't bother to work on a system that has potential and left to rot. oddly enough they put other systems to avoid direct confrontation, but instead pvers complain about being killed at a spot when they can freely swap between 3 servers with no cooldown or utilize a private grind zone with 1 hour daily limit. ashes of creation and throne of liberty will have a much better system of how to handle things based off of forums, vision for their games.
i would not sleep on eastern mmos, they ARE competitive in the mmo market nowadays, which in the past would have a been a joke.
i do have respect for pvers and some of the more open minded players willing to explore and test different systems. kudos to you folks, you know who you are :) love you and i'm always listening to what you have to say.
one more thing of note to mention, new world the reason why a lot of pvpers understand why pve must be first. there is no need to go into details. nuff said.
stellarmind said:pvp fights are usually unfair dorotea :/ but it sure feels good what you kick someone in the nuts thats is punching down >=D
Agreed. Unless you are in a situation like pvp arena matches or battlegrounds pvp is never pvp. It is always a person or group ganking a weaker person or group who is trying to pve and has no desire to pvp. I can't even count the number of times I have seen "pvp" groups avoid each other because neither is interested in the risk of fair fights, only ganks. The upside to PvP servers is the lower bar on what is considered griefing. I like that in-game disputes get resolved in in-game ways more frequently, whether through combat or reputation, it sorts itself out without anybody having to cry to the mods that someone from the next camp over is pulling one of the mobs that should be part of their camp. Stuff like training should never be against the rules. If dev's don't want it then program it out of the game so agro can't be dumped onto people who didn't have it in the first place. If it is possible to do in the game then it should be fair play, and if you don't want it then program it out. That is the sentiment that is better on pvp servers.
Telepath said:stellarmind said:pvp fights are usually unfair dorotea :/ but it sure feels good what you kick someone in the nuts thats is punching down >=D
Agreed. Unless you are in a situation like pvp arena matches or battlegrounds pvp is never pvp. It is always a person or group ganking a weaker person or group who is trying to pve and has no desire to pvp. I can't even count the number of times I have seen "pvp" groups avoid each other because neither is interested in the risk of fair fights, only ganks. The upside to PvP servers is the lower bar on what is considered griefing. I like that in-game disputes get resolved in in-game ways more frequently, whether through combat or reputation, it sorts itself out without anybody having to cry to the mods that someone from the next camp over is pulling one of the mobs that should be part of their camp. Stuff like training should never be against the rules. If dev's don't want it then program it out of the game so agro can't be dumped onto people who didn't have it in the first place. If it is possible to do in the game then it should be fair play, and if you don't want it then program it out. That is the sentiment that is better on pvp servers.
Even in arena fights, the ranking mechanisms are crude and you end up with people intentionally keeping themselves just under entry threshholds such that anyone at the lower end of a threshhold is utterly destroyed and if you have a team with a few low threshhold players they get smashed.
I don't play PvP often, so maybe it's improved, but I've very rarely experienced anything much like a close match even in arenas.
"If it is possible to do in the game then it should be fair play". Like if because it's possible for big people to beat up small people in real life, it should be ok? Hehe. Let's raise the bar on that 'griefing' level and save some police resources! (I kid, of course. I know you aren't suggesting that, Just came to mind hehe).
There are lots of things you 'can do' in a multiplayer game, especially anything vaguely sandboxey or with a good amount of player agency, that are really socially unpleasant. That doesn't mean it's ok or that you should damage the sandbox experience to stop it with game mechanics. Play Nice Policy or guidance/rules from the game designers is a fine measure and often more than enough. The rules can be as lax as devs want - allow training and killstealing - as long as they are publicised, people have a good idea of what is acceptable and less disputes and frivolous /reports to GMs occur.
PvP popularity comes down to some people enjoying the danger/chaos and not minding being ganked as long as they get to do some ganking.
So, let them play PvP if that's what they like, but let's not elevate it to some kind of self-policing higher society that can solve its own problems, hehe. Revenge cycles are not some kind of justified policing actions.
As stellarmind says, it's not fair, but it feels good when it's your turn.
disposalist said:"If it is possible to do in the game then it should be fair play". Like if because it's possible for big people to beat up small people in real life, it should be ok?
Real life is a great example of poor game design. I would never suggest it as a model for Panthon. Lol