StoneFish said:Hahaha. I love stuff like this. Player vs Player in the opinion wars.
Unwashed undercarriage and all you troll types can always slather yourself with axe body stink.
Honestly I want to have an alt on a PvP server but just for the curiosity factor. I'll stop at a road side freak show too on occasion.
Lol. Imagine how boring it would be discussing our preferences in an echo chamber...or perhaps with a non-player bot? ...hmmm...
StoneFish said:Hahaha. I love stuff like this. Player vs Player in the opinion wars.
Unwashed undercarriage and all you troll types can always slather yourself with axe body stink.
Honestly I want to have an alt on a PvP server but just for the curiosity factor. I'll stop at a road side freak show too on occasion.
I think the type of person drawn to Pantheon will by nature be more pleasant than your previous experiences.
Thunderleg said:
Same story different thread I suppose. With the team size, please focus on getting the PvE right and out the door. Balancing PvP is a massive time sink for such a small team and even the big boys have a hard time getting it right...
I agree. My intention is to to voice the idea that not everyone hates PVP with a rabid passion and enjoys partaking in both PVE and PVP worlds.... hence the idea of a 'hybrid server'. I'm guessing that that's just going to be the PVP server.
Cyphonus said:Thunderleg said:
Same story different thread I suppose. With the team size, please focus on getting the PvE right and out the door. Balancing PvP is a massive time sink for such a small team and even the big boys have a hard time getting it right...
I agree. My intention is to to voice the idea that not everyone hates PVP with a rabid passion and enjoys partaking in both PVE and PVP worlds.... hence the idea of a 'hybrid server'. I'm guessing that that's just going to be the PVP server.
There was a poll conducted several years ago on the Pantheon subreddit that had over 900 submissions. Looking strictly at the data there are more people that seem to agree with your sentiment than not.
Here is a link to the results of that questionnaire: Pantheon Questionnaire v5
There are plenty of great insights in there. If players are forced to choose strictly one or the other there will be a large void of preferred gameplay for many, indeed.
This topic has been promoted for my CM content (even though it has been discussed before), please continue the discussion and have fun! :)
"Hot Topic - PVP/PVE Hybrid Server? What server will you be playing on at launch and would you like it to be strictly PvE, PvP, RP or a Hybrid with some sort of combination of PvE/PvP/RP? Let us know in this community-created thread: https://seforums.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/13699/pvp-pve-hybrid-server #MMORPG #CommunityMatters"
Thunderleg said:
Same story different thread I suppose. With the team size, please focus on getting the PvE right and out the door. Balancing PvP is a massive time sink for such a small team and even the big boys have a hard time getting it right...
I have zero interest in PvP and hope they don't waste time on it.
Best server setup that I have played on was in EQ1 back in the days. PvP-Team server. It divided the playable races of the game into two sides. You were only able to attack and get attacked by the players of the opposing team. It wasn't as brutal as "everyone v. everyone"-pvp and created wonderful RP opportunities
My vote would be to Focus only on PVE as Patheon seems to be about coming together to fight a bigger evil. We get bullied enough in life and do not want to be pushed out of our camping spots because a player with a few Gear Score levels above not just steals but kills us. I don't want to miss out on cool gear because it has PVP ramifications nor have every class have the same DPS but have different animations. MMO PVP almost always, from my experiences from just about every MMO out there, ends in zerg(massive bodies of players killing everything).
If you want PVP in a PVE game I think it needs to be separated into for example a PVP pet/robot battle areas or some kind of ether world PVP battle. That way the math is divided and the devs can focus on DPS vs MOB without having to keep PVP in the back of their minds the whole time and vice versa. I remember leaving EQ during LDON in search of a sandbox PVP server which I quickly found lacking or like an MMO with no content and most people would not make it beyond the first guard tower.
I would love to hear new Idea's on how you can make PVP work in this type of game or which game you think already nailed it.
First love was PvE in EQ but the biggest kick and sense of community was the RvRvR in DAOC and it was the right mix of strictly PvE area, strictly RvR area and the Frontier which had everything including sieges and relic raids. Best mix ever in a game. I had friends who never PvP and friends who never PvE and friends who would only craft all together in the same guild helping each other and each playing there own way! Each night you could choose what you wanted to do but stay within the same game, same server with the same friends. There is nothing like a common enemy to bring a group together. Just to be clear - it's realm vs realm not player vs player and the area's were well defined and you were not forced to play any style you didn't want.
Don't know exactly what a hybrid PvP/PvE server means. Most likely it means different things for different people.
That being said, in my opinion, the PvP server that the devs have been promising us for years should be open-world, free-for-all, no pvp-designated zones and no pvp flags.
If you consign pvp to specific areas in the game-world (or implement pvp flags) two things happen that cheapen the pvp-experience:
- It provides a way to perform player-ganks without consequences. You kill people in the "pvp-instance" then you bail out and don't have to pay for it :P
- The world is no longer dangerous and unpredictable. Player characters provide the best content (in my opinion) so allow them to be free to choose when and where to pvp.
There are several things that, for me, make a open-world pvp without pvp-flags the most enjoyable pvp-server ruleset:
- When you login anything can happen!
- The diplomatic consequences of attacking the wrong player/guild can have server-wide repercussions, when taking guild alliances into account. Handling these situations is part of the fun!
- Forces you to learn you class further, since you'll be tested more frequently, whether it's convenient for you or not.
- Most guilds are forced to take a stance, either go full gank, anti-gank(social-justice types) or something in between. It's quite fun so see so many different approaches within the pvp community. The social dynamics aspect here is super interesting to witness.
- In this environment your reputation is way more important than consequence-less pvp
The server ruleset of the FFA-PvP servers in Vanguard (Tharridon/Sartok) was open-world, without pvp-zones or flags. And it was simply the best mmorpg experience I ever had. You had a great pvp-ruleset server backed up by amazing PvE. No other game has ever pulled this off, in my opinion. Pantheon stands to capitalize on this.
Now going back to "hybrid" type server proposal... I ask you: If you want pvp-instances/zones/flags whats the point of having a pvp server in Pantheon if it's similar to what the competition is offering? (say wow or new world for example)
I get it. You want to do PvE but don't want people ganking you. But you also want to, sometimes, have a little pvp rush and later get back to PvE uninterrupted. If that's the case then why not make a character in the PvP server for when you want to just pvp, and later, hop into the PvE server for a more relaxing play-session? For me it seems like the best option, and the one that'll upset the least amount of backers and mmorpg fans that are looking for someting different, be it the PvP crowd or the PvE only crowd.
Like Joppa has said a few times in the past 2 years: "You opt in when you login"
Keep it simple. Everyone wins.
I posted this on reddit, but figure I might as well participate here too lol.
I'm gunning for an RP server, for sure. Whether it's RP-PVP or RP-PVE depends on how the pvp is handled. Open world pvp is delightful, but really needs a game designed for it, with in game systems in place to curb toxic behaviors (bounties, notoriety, faction hits, harsher death penalties for "outlaws" or whatever, stuff like that). That game isn't going to be Pantheon, though, and that's ok.
But controlled pvp, like arenas, "battlegrounds", or certain contested zones between in game factions? That could work. It wouldn't even have to be permanent factions, you could have a zone where, I don't know, there's a group of people doing a large forest clearing operation for logging, and there are the resident druids or whatever who are defending the forest. And you can take quests from either and kind of sell yourself as a mercenary for hire. Alternatively, you can take a non-mercenary role and not "flag" yourself, but still participate in the storyline and content of the zone (minus the pvp aspects). I feel this might be a fair compromise, or something like it.
For better or worse, Pantheon isn't a game that is going to lend itself to good, healthy open world pvp. Not unless they want to spend a lot of dev time nailing down features to keep the toxicity to a minimum. Because with pvp comes entirely different systems and balance concerns. What kind of loot/rewards does one get from it? What penalties? Level gap, how will the factions work, how will guards respond, etc. There's more that goes into it than people think.
I'm not anti-pvp, I love pvp. But open world, *FFA* pvp for Pantheon? Not what I'm looking for.
I hate to bring it up, but there is a game that successfuly blended PvP and PvE to the point where most people didn't even realize it was originally strictly a PvP game. I had someone not too long ago say "That wasn't a PvP game!" Ya... World of Warcraft is a PvP game (not a PvE game with PvP on a couple of servers). The way they did it was F'n seemless - a character from one factoin couldn't even understand the language from the other factions (and the other factions also looked slightly different than if you played them) and it was primarily PvE unless you wandered into the enemy's territory (to raid their city), or in some cases a contested territory. I'm not saying that PRotF should do this, but it was a game dynamic that really made that game appeal to such a wide audience because it catered equally to PvP and PvE players.
I would be perfectly fine with (and even welcome) a few areas in PRotF that had "contested" areas, where entering an area granted greater exp and/or loot chance, but was also PvP enabled - (high risk = high reward). A way to lessen people's anxiety about PvP would be to make it Guild, Raid and Party friendly (if you share a guild tag or are in the same raid/party you are unable to hurt another in your guild/raid/party and for X mins after leaving it). The anxiety people feel from PvP comes from the "preconceived" notions of everyone that participates in PvP does so to troll or grief and they feel that would ruin their game experience (which it absolutely would, if that were the case). What those people are missing is the intense comrodery that is created in PvP games and a whole different level of excitement... even when playing the exact same content over and over. A guild/group friendly pvp system would still allow for guilds to monopolize content, but there would also still be a "chance" for another guild (or people fed up forming a raid) to contest that content. On a PvE server, if you want to progress, you are all but forced to join a guild based on their ability to monopolize content... which is fine, but F'n annoying (and counterproductive to building alliances/leveling up with friends in a small guild or joining any guild other than the one(s) that can monopolize content). I think those are a couple of concerns of players that can appreciate a blend of PvP/PvE.
What I won't do is play a game designed for PvE on a free for all PvP server, where you can't even trust the people who invited you to a group. THOSE servers are where PvP gets a bad rep from. You can never relax and just enjoy the game because you always have to be ready to be betrayed at every second. Want to tell your group "AFK, have to go use the rest room" - nope... you better log off to take anything more than a 20 second break.
"I've seen some pretty toxic PVE only raids with elitist officers/raid leaders spewing "trash talk" unecessarily to the participants. I've also seen toxic children in PVP like you said.... So I think an argument generalizing toxic behavior for both PVE and PVP mentalities can be made; It's not a really good sole reason to split the community up."
You are, of course, correct. Pure pve servers can be just as bad - but on *average* they tend to be at least marginally more mature. This was far from the sole reason for my preference - nor was it the most important.
"Keep the PvP lovers away from me please, their stink is not unlike a trolls unwashed undercarriage. "
Very nicely phrased. This may, perhaps, constitute actionable libel but hopefully the trolls will be unable to find a lawyer.
Honestly, for all that people here dunk so heavily on PVP, characterizing all people who love PVP in certain ways, calling them names, generalizing, bemoaning their supposed toxicity, etc, it comes across as specifically and hilariously ironic and hypocritical that it's the PVP lovers that are the "toxic" ones in these narratives. I feel like being a toxic-wasteland of a person isn't exclusive to one or the other, but rather just an elitist mentality in general. Just food for thought.
I most MMOs I strictly like just PvE.
In Aion and Rift I got a bit of a taste for PvP, both open world and instanced and found it could be a complete thrill at times.
The MMO I've played since 2012 is GW2 and in that game I interestingly only play the realm vs realm PvP known as WvW, I just have no interest for the PvE in GW2 at all, I think it's because of the silly story where every player is 'the commander' saviour of the world and the poor storylines in general.
In Pantheon, if I had to choose I would likely play on a strictly PvE server as I'm looking for a slower-paced, more relaxing community driven experience for the future. Although open world contested mobs are certainly an indirect form of PvP ;)
I would however enjoy a bit of PvP on that PvE server though, if it was opt in only. Some simple options like an arena where anyone becomes PvP flagged automatically (like EQ) where player-driven duels or group fights could be created. Or some small instanced area, perhaps in a mystical realm that could host something simple like 2v2 or 3v3 fights, nothing serious and no particular progression attached to it, just available as an extra tool for more player-driven content?
TheWingless said:Honestly, for all that people here dunk so heavily on PVP, characterizing all people who love PVP in certain ways, calling them names, generalizing, bemoaning their supposed toxicity, etc, it comes across as specifically and hilariously ironic and hypocritical that it's the PVP lovers that are the "toxic" ones in these narratives. I feel like being a toxic-wasteland of a person isn't exclusive to one or the other, but rather just an elitist mentality in general. Just food for thought.
Good point. It's really a poor generalization they make, because I can find the same 'toxicity' on PVE servers. Maybe we should just ban guild feature because it has a potential to produce toxic raid leaders??? I don't want any part in a guild! Totally joking....it's poor reasoning to isolate people and cut down server population because of a deranged vocal minority.
Darch said:I hate to bring it up, but there is a game that successfuly blended PvP and PvE to the point where most people didn't even realize it was originally strictly a PvP game. I had someone not too long ago say "That wasn't a PvP game!" Ya... World of Warcraft is a PvP game (not a PvE game with PvP on a couple of servers). The way they did it was F'n seemless - a character from one factoin couldn't even understand the language from the other factions (and the other factions also looked slightly different than if you played them) and it was primarily PvE unless you wandered into the enemy's territory (to raid their city), or in some cases a contested territory. I'm not saying that PRotF should do this, but it was a game dynamic that really made that game appeal to such a wide audience because it catered equally to PvP and PvE players.
I would be perfectly fine with (and even welcome) a few areas in PRotF that had "contested" areas, where entering an area granted greater exp and/or loot chance, but was also PvP enabled - (high risk = high reward). A way to lessen people's anxiety about PvP would be to make it Guild, Raid and Party friendly (if you share a guild tag or are in the same raid/party you are unable to hurt another in your guild/raid/party and for X mins after leaving it). The anxiety people feel from PvP comes from the "preconceived" notions of everyone that participates in PvP does so to troll or grief and they feel that would ruin their game experience (which it absolutely would, if that were the case). What those people are missing is the intense comrodery that is created in PvP games and a whole different level of excitement... even when playing the exact same content over and over. A guild/group friendly pvp system would still allow for guilds to monopolize content, but there would also still be a "chance" for another guild (or people fed up forming a raid) to contest that content. On a PvE server, if you want to progress, you are all but forced to join a guild based on their ability to monopolize content... which is fine, but F'n annoying (and counterproductive to building alliances/leveling up with friends in a small guild or joining any guild other than the one(s) that can monopolize content). I think those are a couple of concerns of players that can appreciate a blend of PvP/PvE.
What I won't do is play a game designed for PvE on a free for all PvP server, where you can't even trust the people who invited you to a group. THOSE servers are where PvP gets a bad rep from. You can never relax and just enjoy the game because you always have to be ready to be betrayed at every second. Want to tell your group "AFK, have to go use the rest room" - nope... you better log off to take anything more than a 20 second break.
Agreed, as much as people dunk on WoW the way they set it up was brilliant for world PVP. Not splitting up PVE and PVP ensures a populated servers and a fun*fancy word* juxtaposition between two worlds.
I think PRotF could achieve the same experience by creating PVP zones or instanced PVP arenas. This way it's still voluntary whether one wants to participate or not and won't rile up the PVE-only crowd too badly. If it's voluntary to participate, how could anyone really be against that?
Jiub said:I think PRotF could achieve the same experience by creating PVP zones or instanced PVP arenas. This way it's still voluntary whether one wants to participate or not and won't rile up the PVE-only crowd too badly. If it's voluntary to participate, how could anyone really be against that?
I think this would be lovely. It's true, early wow really did blend the whole thing together very well. But as you've seen here and elsewhere, some people are absolutely, 100% opposed to any kind of pvp included in the game, even if it's optional. Even if it's on a separate server. These individuals don't even want to play with people who like pvp. It's an uphill battle in this community, due to this vocal minority.
In all honesty.. I've played PvP in World of Warcraft and I've never ever had any issues with toxicity, and that is running 2v2 or 3v3. In Battlegrounds there have been some toxic people but it has never been directed towards a specific player or myself. I think people just talk $#!+ in general but not directly in the instances. So, if VR gets it right, which I'm sure they will. They will make it work. That's just the experiences I've had. But then again, I don't PvP much.
Thanks for making a new thread to talk about this in more detail. Not that this has not been covered before but it seems even VR wants us to keep talking about it.
As a strict PVE only player one of my main frustrations with PVP is that for a PVP player there is no downside to mixing PVP and PVE. Mixing them dose improve PVP though. In my opinion this is why PVP fans want every MMO to have PVP. I mean why not. Can anyone name one downside to having PVP mixed with PVE if you are a strictly PVP player?
But as a strict PVE player what are the up sides to mixing with PVP? I can think of none only negative. Granted it can be done with a plan of minimal impact on PVE like EQ did back in the day. This sounds like what VR plans for Pantheon. But again, this only minimizes the impact there is still a negative impact. At the very least resources have to be spent on PVP that could otherwise be spent on PVE.
I recognize that VR plans to have PVP server and my hope is for minimal impact on PVE. Something like what EQ did for example. I know it had an impact but it is one I feel is tolerable.
Stances like mine might seem harsh to a PVP player but try to understand how a pure PVE player feels. Name a major MMO that was PVE only? I cannot think of a single one. Now list off all the MMOs that were PVP only. A PVE only fan basically has to put up with a mix of some amount if they want to play. But PVP players have their PVP only games. It would be a dream come true to just once be able to have a game that focuses 100% on PVE.
For a little bit of more insight into this PVE only player thoughts. I play PVP games off and on and have a lot of fun with them. I am not against PVP as a general rule. What I have no interest in is PVP in my MMO worlds. For this player the MMO genre and PVP just do not mix.