dorotea said: Obviously we can have progeny as so described without mastery or AA. We can have mastery or AA as so dexcribed without progeny. Some people seem to be assuming that a progeny system will have elements of mastery or AA built into it. I assume the opposite.
In the Apr 3, 2020 Devstream "Shaman Abilities" Joppa talked a good bit about Mastery. I can't say where exactly, but I think it was in there that he said "there's going to be lots of tie-in to things like the Progeny system thru mastery" (which is a quote I have in my notes). That's the most I know about a connection between them.
The reason why I'm posting is that I see people making suggestions to change the system that would reduce the benefits of having the progeny system in the first place.
Please understand why these type of systems are implemented before you suggest changing something that reduces the point of the system.
There are multiple reasons why these type of systems are implemented in games. Hopefully the list below seems like I am stating the obvious:
Anything that detracts from these reasons reduces the benefit of the system.
Systems like Progeny :
1: Keep players playing when they would have otherwise run out content and unsubscribed.
2: Reduce the high end bottleneck by redirecting players away from max lvl content/raiding. Reduce contention for high end content/raid targets.
3: Spread the playerbase out to a wider range of levels. Improves group availability.
4: Improves the new player experience by populating lower lvl zones with level appropriate players.
5: Encourage focusing on the journey and replayability.
6: Help stimulate the crafting and harvesting spheres by always having a supply/demand for a wider level range.
7: Help by keeping the economy continuously ticking over with player driven items through 1-50 level ranges.
These have all been discussed before. I'm sure there are more.
Please understand why these type of systems are implemented before you suggest changing something that reduces the whole point of having the system.
"In the Apr 3, 2020 Devstream "Shaman Abilities" Joppa talked a good bit about Mastery. I can't say where exactly, but I think it was in there that he said "there's going to be lots of tie-in to things like the Progeny system thru mastery" (which is a quote I have in my notes). That's the most I know about a connection between them."
I am sure there will be tie-ins. My guess is that a new character, after progenization, may well have extra mastery points or different mastery points than would be available to a new character without progenization. I had also referred to such tie-ins as likely. Just as what class you are will affect what masteries you can get, whether you have progenized will quite likely have an impact.
Philo is spot-on in the basic approach - analyzing a system based on how it will help the game and the player experience. Reasonable sounding changes that will hurt the game or hurt the player experience are to be avoided however logical they may appear in a vacuum. Philo's seven points hit the bullseye.
dorotea said:"In the Apr 3, 2020 Devstream "Shaman Abilities" Joppa talked a good bit about Mastery. I can't say where exactly, but I think it was in there that he said "there's going to be lots of tie-in to things like the Progeny system thru mastery" (which is a quote I have in my notes). That's the most I know about a connection between them."
I am sure there will be tie-ins. My guess is that a new character, after progenization, may well have extra mastery points or different mastery points than would be available to a new character without progenization. I had also referred to such tie-ins as likely. Just as what class you are will affect what masteries you can get, whether you have progenized will quite likely have an impact.
philo said:Anything that detracts from these reasons reduces the benefit of the system.
Systems like Progeny :
1: Keep players playing when they would have otherwise run out content and unsubscribed.
2: Reduce the high end bottleneck by redirecting players away from max lvl content/raiding. Reduce contention for high end content/raid targets.
3: Spread the playerbase out to a wider range of levels. Improves group availability.4: Improves the new player experience by populating lower lvl zones with level appropriate players.
5: Encourage focusing on the journey and replayability.
6: Help stimulate the crafting and harvesting spheres by always having a supply/demand for a wider level range.
7: Help by keeping the economy continuously ticking over with player driven items through 1-50 level ranges.
These have all been discussed before. I'm sure there are more.
Please understand why these type of systems are implemented before you suggest changing something that reduces the whole point of having the system.
Leevolen said: ......
I might be missing something, but it seems to me that you're just saying that progeny doesn't offer anything of interest to you. That's perfectly fine. Not everything in Pantheon will appeal to everyone. If a player only finds one of the Classes appealing and plays it to max level and consumes all available content, they eventually suspend their subscription. Some come back for expansions, some do not. Such is life.
Even if only half of those who make it to that point choose to make a Progeny, it will be a big boost to the game, for all of the reasons Philo described.
And if I like my character's class all the way to max level, why would I want to start all over again? Min/max benefits aren't enticing enough and won't be to the majority of more casual players VR is designing the world for
This ^ is the main point that matters.
Like Joth mentioned you might not. It's not for everyone, but you should still want it to happen so that those things in the list happen because they effect all of the players and the long term health of the game.
But also, it makes VR money directly by the way it keeps some players subscribed who may not be otherwise, so they basically can't afford not to do it.
Jothany said:Not everything in Pantheon will appeal to everyone.
philo said:Why do you think you would have to change your class or race to participate in the progeny system?
philo said:There seems to be some confusion.
How is it I edited my post at 2:56, to address the main point better and the parts you quoted got changed, but you quoted it at 3:46? ...whatever lol. I focused on the main point above :D
philo said:How is it I edited my post at 2:56, to address the main point better and the parts you quoted got changed, but you quoted it at 3:46? ...whatever lol. I focused on the main point above :D
I click quote, then read the quote, then stare hopelessly at a blinking cursor waiting for the words to come that won't be picked apart. It takes me a while to consider other points of view and then try to add something to the conversation with those in mind, often because people here tend to make strong counterarguments. Make weaker arguments and we won't have this problem, okay?!
Leevolen said:
wondering out loud whether progeny will appeal to enough players to warrant its implementation earlier rather than later.The main question being, which group of players is progeny designed for exactly?
::You have been word saladed into a confused state.::
To the first point, it seems pretty confirmed that progeny won't be implemented until after release.
To the second point, since we have no 'exact' details about it at this time, there's no possible way to say 'exactly' who it is going to appeal to. In a very general context, I've heard that other games give bonuses of some kind to a player when creating new characters after reaching max level on one. Whatever the details, it seems reasonable IMO to expect a fair number to find similar bonuses appealing in Pantheon. I could certainly be dead wrong though.
To the last point, ROFL!! That's a great description. Perhaps Bards should have a "Word Salad Surprise" ability. Good Job!
Edit: Found a better Ability Name
Unrelated, random and from left-field so to speak.
fun factor/humor factor of "adoring fan" in skyrim. He could hold torches for you in dungeons. He could wear armor. He would fall off walls or cliffs. He would run around in battle, useless, a speedbump mostly. He would die often and for no seen reason.
Instead of something playable, something like that? a weak familiar, light bearer, walking bag of sorts? with unlockable model types based on quests/things done in game to keep players playing at level and encouraging to spend more time in a certain area? Spriggan familiar that becomes a tree when you dont move for a period of time, scaring anyone that joins you and you move and the tree suddenly becomes a moving thing? model available only if you do X things in Faerthale? I see it as a compromise to a less-than progeny that may be do-able in a smaller amount of time, and a consession to the "emperor has no clothes" cosmetic needers.
Jothany said:To the last point, ROFL!! That's a great description. Perhaps Bards should have a "Word Salad Surprise" ability. Good Job!
I love this idea! I suggest a "Jothany's Word Salad Surprise" Bard ability which causes the target's next spell cast to fail and the target to say random words in chat. The random words should be structured like Mad Libs, with a large dictionary of choices for nouns, verbs, etc. This could make for some funny moments. And one of the random nouns should be "Leevolen".
Ideally, the Progeny System should create demand for groups similarly to how Harvest and Crafting create demand for groups.
This is why I see the Progenitor possibly being like a personal Quest NPC. The Progeny needs others to help him fulfill their Quests, just as Crafters need others to fulfill their needs.
Thus, only a fraction of the Player Base need participate directly in the Progeny System to benefit the Player Base as a whole.
Grimseethe said:Id much prefer to keep my original character forver
You can do that, even with the progeny system.
You should still be in favor of the system even if you don't want to participate so that those things in the above list happen. They effect all of the players and the long term health of the game positively.
Grimseethe said: Id much prefer to ... scrap a progeny system, it takes time away from stuff that matters.
Progeny matters to some of us, even if it doesn't matter to you.
I think Grimseethe is just expressing the anxiety that a lot of us feel about the launch of the game. I agree with him somewhat. I don't believe Progeny is necessary at Launch. Indeed, implementation would be better informed by seeing how people actually play the game. Ultimately, no practical amount of alpha and beta testing can compare to Live play.
Progeny is an interesting topic since we have never actually been given details on the system, it was discussed early on conceptually but never expanded upon (understandably, there have been much more important things for the team to work on). At this point, it could go multiple ways. Personally, I think one of the big draws of MMOs is getting invested into your character, having to "retire" or kill it isn't that appealing to me. There are huge issues that this type of system does seek to address, however, and I think Philo outlined those issues well. I don't necessarily think Progeny (as it's been understood so far) is the only answer to those issues, but it is an interesting thought experiment.
"I think Grimseethe is just expressing the anxiety that a lot of us feel about the launch of the game."
And I entirely agree. If a system is not essential and if including it would delay launch - go without it and add it later. This is especially true for systems that will not be needed for quite a few months because they only become truly significant as people reach level-cap. Let the first few speed-levelers do without if that will speed up release for the rest of us.
I think most of us agree on two basic points: the purpose of a Progeny system (as excellently summed up by philo) and that it's a post launch feature that should not have its implementation delay launch.
Nevertheless, it's still a worthwhile topic to discuss and offer suggestions for, since that will still help VR know what we want and will help spark creative ideas.
It might even be worth implementing some rudimentary aspects of it in pre-release testing provided 1) the aspect being tested can be cobbled together quickly and 2) its a specific feature that's added or modified for Progeny and tester feedback is desired
Every time we suggest something it can cause creative inspiration, even if that inspiration doesn not abbeat to be directly related. So I think we should continue to discuss this.
And in the spirit of continued suggestions, here's a few more ideas:
dorotea said:"I think Grimseethe is just expressing the anxiety that a lot of us feel about the launch of the game."
And I entirely agree. If a system is not essential and if including it would delay launch - go without it and add it later. This is especially true for systems that will not be needed for quite a few months because they only become truly significant as people reach level-cap. Let the first few speed-levelers do without if that will speed up release for the rest of us.
Agreed...and essential systems are very few. A lot could be pushed. Progeny of course but many other systems as well. I'm hoping they get to that point of urgency eventually.
Another random water cooler idea/shower thought to throw out there, because a progeny system would be cool at some point...
The max level progenitor voluntarily dies one final death on Terminus, through a specific act or ritual, however they wish to go about it. For flavor, these deaths could also incorporate a quest/area dedicated to each race/class, leading wizards/paladins to self-immolate at the top of a beacon shrouded in supernatural darkness, skar dire lords to throw themselves into a sacrificial pit, or dark myr warriors to commit harakiri on a beach at high tide. The player character might even need to put themselves in a certain state beforehand, such as a state of willingness.
In any event, the player character would do so leaving behind no ordinary corpse but instead a remnant (think Aradune in East Karana on live). The remains of one fallen character might be found anywhere in Terminus, deep within the catacombs of a dungeon or high on a mountainside, but the location would be based on that character's actions in the world, where they gained the most experience, faction, or mastery points. Similar to souls/runes in Dark Souls/Elden Ring, but different in execution as the lingering source would not be found at the place of death but elsewhere, in an area connected to/associated with to the original character. If they cut down trees and crafted items from wood, the remnant might be found deep within a forest. Their progeny would then need to locate this memorial site through the keeper system (a perception ping), in order to gain the benefits (and unlock benefits for the original character worlds away) rather than automatically inheriting them just because.
Being removed from the world of Terminus, progenitors would suddenly find themselves on their respective planets...in one form or another. Every dwarf returning to Oldassa.Every gnome would discover what remained of Stormona. And so on. Human/Vas Demith. Skar/D'shoth. Elf/Si'olaen. Dark myr/Issul. Archai/Roa. Halfling/Hiryth.
Here, on their home planet, progenitors would discover that they more closely resemble their ancestors, those who never set foot on Terminus. The dark myr would have flukes. The halflings would be of full stature. But in this unaltered state, each would also find themselves cut off from mortals still on Terminus, unable to visit or even communicate with the general population (though still able to /petition and communicate with VR staff). Transformed, the progenitor would also have a new default bind point on their home planet. Regular players might never see this content, though it could be left as a potential option for future content, accessed through very costly means after several expansions bridge the gap between Terminus and the origin points of every race (assuming that's the direction VR goes).
On one's home planet the previous race/class restrictions would also come into play, with each world presenting new unique challenges based on more limited group/raid compositions (here again humans would have the advantage). Example: A race with no healers? All of the mobs on their home planet return HP to players upon death (AE heal) or from each succesful attack (Mark of Karn), whether physical or magical. And quickly it would become evident that, in these new worlds, each type of magic would act and interact differently; what was true on Terminus might not be true on Roa or Oldassa. Lastly, upon returning to their home planet, each progenitor would reset to level 1 (having relinquished/imparted all that they learned to their progeny) with their racial passive/active enhanced to indicate the changes to their forms. Example: Dark myr would move slower on land, but swim even faster than before underwater.