I played A LOT of EQ2. I have 7 abilities to use by level 5. By level 55, I have 4 hotbars full.
I played a little EQ. I stand there and watch my Zerker "melee attack" from level 1-9.
These two games are at extream ends of the spectrum. I love having imput during fights. I like some level of control as to what I'm going to do during a fight. EQ2 is a little over the top. EQ is a little underwhelming.
I'm hoping Pantheon can meet somewhere in the middle. I don't want to be walking around for the first couple of days after release 'melee attacking' everything while I alt-tab to YouTube or something.
That is one thing that newer models of mmorpgs do better. Looking back at the first stream of Pantheon, I think they were level 7 and had 9 or 10 skills.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=INd9SfIbWN4
It is super likely that things have changed since, and of course it may have been more skills because of testing.
Another thing is that non-spellcasters are getting many more skills than they had in EQ. Each class is going to have to choose from a set of skills a total of 12 to use actively, so you can expect that each class has quite a bit more than 12 skills.
Kastor said:When EQ released I was a High Elf Wizard and I couldn't afford all of my level 4 spells and definitely not all of my level 8. I had to pick and choose, I LOVED that!!! Meaningful decisions! Bring back that level of difficulty and make gold actually scarce.
Ya this was rough. I was poor as dirt and until lev 20+ (fine steel from Unrest) I couldn't afford even Half my spells.
After watching the latest stream with Cohh and seeing warrior class at lev 25 ish. I feel like they have that happy middle ground. And as someone else said, you might have 24 abilities at lev 10 but you get 12 slots to pick what you have ready to use.
I have not seen anything that limits that 12 at lower level tho. So at lev 5, you could have several abilities, if you can afford to buy them.
Flapp said:Kastor said:When EQ released I was a High Elf Wizard and I couldn't afford all of my level 4 spells and definitely not all of my level 8. I had to pick and choose, I LOVED that!!! Meaningful decisions! Bring back that level of difficulty and make gold actually scarce.
Ya this was rough. I was poor as dirt and until lev 20+ (fine steel from Unrest) I couldn't afford even Half my spells.
After watching the latest stream with Cohh and seeing warrior class at lev 25 ish. I feel like they have that happy middle ground. And as someone else said, you might have 24 abilities at lev 10 but you get 12 slots to pick what you have ready to use.
I have not seen anything that limits that 12 at lower level tho. So at lev 5, you could have several abilities, if you can afford to buy them.
It was also awesome because it made everything matter. That's what is important. Getting spammed with skills every level is a joke. Riding the ebbs and flows of a game like EQ were magic. These days you get a carrot every single level practically for free, which means they have no value.
I would like to see virtually all abilities for all class able to be learned at level 1, but all of them must be EARNED not bought or given. As you play your skills can get stronger (up to a cap for your level) and possibly evolve through additional EARNED rewards. The evolutions will help you pick which gear is best for you and the play style that you pursue to fill your class role. You don’t need and perhaps cannot have all class abilities available to your class and even if you have them you still need to level them almost like weapon skills through use.
This structure would allow for more horizontal progression, less spellbook clutter (do I really need 87 icons to do the 5 things my character really does? Make one Icon that can be downranked or de-evolved as desired for each ability line) and earlier group dynamics rather than waiting till X level when you finally get the important power.
This structure also more follows a logarithmic power growth by character level which is of a huge benefit to the longevity of a game system.
Trasak said:I would like to see virtually all abilities for all class able to be learned at level 1, but all of them must be EARNED not bought or given. As you play your skills can get stronger (up to a cap for your level) and possibly evolve through additional EARNED rewards. The evolutions will help you pick which gear is best for you and the play style that you pursue to fill your class role. You don’t need and perhaps cannot have all class abilities available to your class and even if you have them you still need to level them almost like weapon skills through use.
This structure would allow for more horizontal progression, less spellbook clutter (do I really need 87 icons to do the 5 things my character really does? Make one Icon that can be downranked or de-evolved as desired for each ability line) and earlier group dynamics rather than waiting till X level when you finally get the important power.
This structure also more follows a logarithmic power growth by character level which is of a huge benefit to the longevity of a game system.
Pantheon will not be created this way. They have distinct classes with unique spells & abilities assigned to them at certain levels. Of course each class has specifc skills they need to raise each level as well. The design you speak of is more UO style, raise your skills as you use then. Legends of Aria & Path of Exile are created somewhat like this and a few other mmos.
@Kastor
I think may have been unclear. I am still suggesting that all the projected class skills stay with the class just that they are all available at level 1 (in a level 1 form). VR has already stated that several abilites for each class will be able to morph over time through finding advanced versions. I am really only suggesting that they implement this for all the class abilities rather than a small handful per class. Different versions of the core abilities may favor one stat balance over another and so will require appropriate gear.
For spell list simplicity I would recommend using a core ability with several options that can be picked when the ability is placed on an action bar. For example would be the summoners summon monster ability. Its selected to be the type of pet you want to summon when you place it on your action bar, perhaps having one copy for each pet type but I suspect you would only want one slot taken up for the pet you intend to use in your group.
The basic ability of Summon Monster would be obtainable through a quest accessible in the starting area. This first construct would be a basic mana/force elemental aka the lease effective but maybe most versatile. Over time you can go out and achieve Fire, Water, Earth and Air construct masteries giving you more options on what your Summon Monster can do. Eventually you will be able to summon an epic behemoth though its power is so strong that it is beyond your ability to control (maybe there are times you can just summon it and run to use it as a distraction, all depends on how agro is established).
Likewise other classes have similarly themed abilities that have different sub-options like the druid spirit buffs. A core buff could be earned at level 1 and each separate spirit needs to be quested for over time though in theory you could do it at level 1 though the content may be designed for level 30.
(I do think it would be cool to have a specific server where there are no classes you just need to pick which abilities you want to focus on to assemble a sudo class. Different gear and group roles will force you to pick what you are doing from one encounter to the next and the effort required to level abilities will require you to focus on developing a much smaller subset of skills to peak power.)
Trasak said:I would like to see virtually all abilities for all class able to be learned at level 1, but all of them must be EARNED not bought or given.
I don't disagree with you, but I also think that the carrot on a stick approach to abilities is a standard point for many level based MMO's. Being level 18 desperatly waiting and wanting to get to level 20 for that ability you've been dieing for is part of the allure, part of the fun, part of the journey.
((I am still suggesting that all the projected class skills stay with the class just that they are all available at level 1 (in a level 1 form) ))
On the one hand, this will allow players to get used to a class early on and decide if they like how it plays. They will have all of the "class defining abilities" to try out albeit in weak level 1 form.
On the other hand, it adds a lot to a game if gaining levels means more than just incremental increases in hit points and the power of existing abilities. Not every level, of course, but occasionally gaining some *important* ability is a nice thing indeed.
Original EQ2 had us start out with generic abilities and gain more specialized "class defining" abilities through several sets of quests as we chose subclasses. I must say I loved that system and still regret that they changed it. But their reasoning probably overlapped yours to a large degree.
Pantheon in a way offers more compelling reasons to do as you suggest - for the reason I am focusing on - ability for a new player to see how a class plays. In EQ2 you could get to sub-class level fairly fast especially if you knew the game and it wasn't your very first character. In Pantheon level 10 or 15 or 20 will hopefully be much more of an investment of time.
On balance I am inclined to prefer a compromise. Give most abilities that affect how you play your class very early on but save some nice abilities for later so level 30-40 may play differently from level 10-20 in some ways. I think that will keep things fresher and more interesting.
Trasak - my comments relate solely to the time a character gains important abilities - I neither agree nor disagree with other things you said, I just find this aspect of your suggestions especially interesting.
Kastor said:When EQ released I was a High Elf Wizard and I couldn't afford all of my level 4 spells and definitely not all of my level 8. I had to pick and choose, I LOVED that!!! Meaningful decisions! Bring back that level of difficulty and make gold actually scarce.
I really enjoyed this too, as frustrating as it sounds on paper now. It made me feel like i earned them a little bit more even if it was just a lack of coin. Aside from that, being a high elf wizard, you could not get all of your spells in Felewithe. I remember needing to go to Freeport for some of my spells, ports mostly if i recall. I hope its not a one stop shop for you abilities too, as they have said many abilities will be out in the world, availability in different cities should be a thing imo.
@Kittik and dorotea
I hear what both of you are saying and I think we are slowly circling around the same general target.
The mechanisms that gates having an ability or not could be content completion rather than a level of grinding completed.
So using my Summoner Summon Monster example from above. The Earth Construct mastery achievement is a feat of strength in the heart of level 20 content. In order to unlock Earth Construct mastery you must do the quest to trigger the feat of strength encounter. No one in your group may be over the level limit of the feat of strength (a level 20 feat of strength may be limited to level 25 characters) and the encounter is locked to only the triggering group (all buffs are wiped before the encounter with a setup phase to rebuff).
The summoner could possibly be lower level with a full group of 25s but lower than level 15 just may not be possible tactically. Likewise you could later complete an “Obsidian Morph” feat of strength at level 40 that transforms your earth construct into a much harder and more damaging construct while making it resistant to fire but weak to sonic. Alternatively you could do a different level 40 feat of strength for the “Quicksilver morph” that made it faster and more resistant to physical and sonic damage but fire would weaken it.
The content where the achievement is available would set the real gate rather than a character level and reinforce the need to be part of the community. (no feats of strength will be tuned to a solo player due to the level cap or perhaps all characters will be force mentored down to the feat level cap leave the solo character overmached by the encounter) You still have something to look forward to but Level is just more a function of the optimal math to achieve it rather than the achievement itself.
Aayden said:Kastor said:When EQ released I was a High Elf Wizard and I couldn't afford all of my level 4 spells and definitely not all of my level 8. I had to pick and choose, I LOVED that!!! Meaningful decisions! Bring back that level of difficulty and make gold actually scarce.
I really enjoyed this too, as frustrating as it sounds on paper now. It made me feel like i earned them a little bit more even if it was just a lack of coin. Aside from that, being a high elf wizard, you could not get all of your spells in Felewithe. I remember needing to go to Freeport for some of my spells, ports mostly if i recall. I hope its not a one stop shop for you abilities too, as they have said many abilities will be out in the world, availability in different cities should be a thing imo.
Cash gating abilities is really only applicable to your first character on a server and even a small donation from a slightly higher level character can completely negate even that. If forcing character to make choices on what order to unlock abilities is your goal then make it a character specific time investment rather than an easily circumvented resource check that only irritates new players.
You want to learn how to cast thorns? Then go kill 20 thorn elementals while running some form of analyze magic and learn how they do it. Don’t pay a vendor or teacher the equivalent of the average cash reward from 20 level 8 monsters.
Trasak said:You want to learn how to cast thorns? Then go kill 20 thorn elementals while running some form of analyze magic and learn how they do it. Don’t pay a vendor or teacher the equivalent of the average cash reward from 20 level 8 monsters.
And how, exactly, would you know before had if even learning that spell was something your class was allowed to learn? Not ever class can cast every spell so such a mechanic would only penalize the early players would would be forced to perform this activity on everything and anything, being frustrated time and time again when they realize their effort was, once again, for naught.
Nope, what we'll see instead are all your basic spells sold by NPCs in various towns/outposts with the rest as spell drops off various mobs. And I'm perfectly fine with that. Maybe..maybe we'll see something akin to the torn page drops in EQ1, but I would not bet on that.
Vandraad said:Trasak said:You want to learn how to cast thorns? Then go kill 20 thorn elementals while running some form of analyze magic and learn how they do it. Don’t pay a vendor or teacher the equivalent of the average cash reward from 20 level 8 monsters.
And how, exactly, would you know before had if even learning that spell was something your class was allowed to learn? Not ever class can cast every spell so such a mechanic would only penalize the early players would would be forced to perform this activity on everything and anything, being frustrated time and time again when they realize their effort was, once again, for naught.
Nope, what we'll see instead are all your basic spells sold by NPCs in various towns/outposts with the rest as spell drops off various mobs. And I'm perfectly fine with that. Maybe..maybe we'll see something akin to the torn page drops in EQ1, but I would not bet on that.
a blacksmith could learn how to make damage reflect armor :o
it would be very unique if we learned spells and abilities this way. they are going to have epic abilities that i can only acquire by certain preqs.
a combination would be nice though.
i'd learn my basic skills from a vendor or class trainer, but then can upgrade them via said method to increase power, duration, reduce cooldown, evolved version, etc etc...
Trasak said:Aayden said:Kastor said:When EQ released I was a High Elf Wizard and I couldn't afford all of my level 4 spells and definitely not all of my level 8. I had to pick and choose, I LOVED that!!! Meaningful decisions! Bring back that level of difficulty and make gold actually scarce.
I really enjoyed this too, as frustrating as it sounds on paper now. It made me feel like i earned them a little bit more even if it was just a lack of coin. Aside from that, being a high elf wizard, you could not get all of your spells in Felewithe. I remember needing to go to Freeport for some of my spells, ports mostly if i recall. I hope its not a one stop shop for you abilities too, as they have said many abilities will be out in the world, availability in different cities should be a thing imo.
Cash gating abilities is really only applicable to your first character on a server and even a small donation from a slightly higher level character can completely negate even that. If forcing character to make choices on what order to unlock abilities is your goal then make it a character specific time investment rather than an easily circumvented resource check that only irritates new players.
You want to learn how to cast thorns? Then go kill 20 thorn elementals while running some form of analyze magic and learn how they do it. Don’t pay a vendor or teacher the equivalent of the average cash reward from 20 level 8 monsters.
I like the idea for this if a class had an "enemy skill" option, where they could do just as you had explained. Perhaps they have an extra tomb where they would keep those abilites. Otherwise, i wasnt highlighting "Cash gating" abilities. More so that there were not one stop shops ala WoW where you just run up to a designated class trainer and boom your done.
Arguably, all low level/first character roadblocks will be negated or reduced by the nature of progression in a game like this. Given that there are no level restrictions to gear and your knowledge of the world will generally only increase.
@Vandraad
The thorns idea was intended to be a druid quest given by a druid trainer or NPC in order to gain the spell rather than just buying and eating a scroll.
I will admit though that there is some interesting possibilities with the Perception system to have you discover your abilities out in the world. There may be in game lore about thorn elementals having a special ability worth studying. If a druid studies them they can pick up their Thorns spell. If a smith or enchanter studies them they can learn some form of damage shield enchantment. And if a warrior studies them they learn not to hug thorny plant creatures.
P.S. I have every faith in Joppa that he has more interesting ways for us to learn about and earn our class abilities other than eating paper some one sold us promising we would become powerful, and regular, if we did.
@Aayden
Fairly said. Even if we get our abilities from one use tradeable items it would be best if we needed to go out into the world to actually find them.
Trasak said:
@Aayden
Fairly said. Even if we get our abilities from one use tradeable items it would be best if we needed to go out into the world to actually find them.
Agreed. I'm sure the best of the best will not be sold from a vendor and wont drop from some common roaming mob.