I like having something new each level even if it's just an upgrade of an existing one. Nothing worse than going up a level and getting nothing but stat bumps. Even if it's just one ability. I didn't really like getting 10 new spells every 4/5 levels in EQ. Give me a couple each level even if it means less overall.
I never liked having to buy spells, either. I don't mind earning them some other way, but purchased just means it's trivial and meaningless for twinks and frustrating for new players especially with some class/race combos (depending on how starting locations are handled).
I would love to see abilities and spells earned and researched as Aayden suggests. I would also like to see abilities improvable or augmentable by doing further quests/missions/tasks, but I suppose, technically, that the same as granting a new, better ability. Perhaps there could be a choice of the way you progress your abilities? (Or is that how coloured mana was going to work?).
disposalist said:I like having something new each level even if it's just an upgrade of an existing one. Nothing worse than going up a level and getting nothing but stat bumps. Even if it's just one ability. I didn't really like getting 10 new spells every 4/5 levels in EQ. Give me a couple each level even if it means less overall.True. Going 8 levels and then getting 10 new spells (even though they are upgrades of already exsisting spells) is a real turn off
disposalist said:I never liked having to buy spells, either. I don't mind earning them some other way, but purchased just means it's trivial and meaningless for twinks and frustrating for new players especially with some class/race combos (depending on how starting locations are handled).+1
disposalist said:I like to see new skill and abilities ONLY be found. A class can have a base ability and maybe a specialty ability that is learned and trained at an NPC, but the rest are found. No Trade / No Drop. Would be fine by me.I would love to see abilities and spells earned and researched as Aayden suggests. I would also like to see abilities improvable or augmentable by doing further quests/missions/tasks, but I suppose, technically, that the same as granting a new, better ability. Perhaps there could be a choice of the way you progress your abilities? (Or is that how coloured mana was going to work?).
Kittik said:Trasak said:I would like to see virtually all abilities for all class able to be learned at level 1, but all of them must be EARNED not bought or given.
I don't disagree with you, but I also think that the carrot on a stick approach to abilities is a standard point for many level based MMO's. Being level 18 desperatly waiting and wanting to get to level 20 for that ability you've been dieing for is part of the allure, part of the fun, part of the journey.
I agree with you 100% Kittik. This is something that a LOT of people are forgetting when they say things like "I never want to reach max level, I just want to casually play and don't care how long it takes me to level". These are the people that will be crying about how hard it is to level when they realize that carrot on the stick is so far out of their reach as they watch people that do have the time to put into the game eating away at their delicious carrots. (I may have gotten carried away with the carrot analogy haha!)
I think there will be an appropriate number of active skills available and numerous abilities to choose from - especially looking at the inconclusive list of abilities available for preview on the classes page. https://www.pantheonmmo.com/classes/cleric/
Spell costs were a valuable money sink for the game, buying every spell for a class was well over 1000 plat taken out of the game per caster. The real issue was melee/some classes didn't have anything near that sort of tax....so make all classes have to purchase the same and we all lose equally for the better.
Lots of great idea and discussion going on here.
While I loved being broke as a noob in EQ and couldn't afford spells, it still kind of sucked. As pointed out. A higher lev toon negates that issue for twinks. I think spells should be on vendors, but scattered all over the world, making some spells hard to aquire.
I loved getting 7-10 spells every 4/5 levels on EQ, and like Keno said: it was an ebb and flow of leveling. And I like the way EQ did it, but, I also like the other option that Disposalist mentioned, an abilitiy or two per level. (don't hate me keno ;p)
I like the example Trasak used about learning Throns by killing Thorn elementals while using something (like detect magic) to figure out how to write the spell in your book. I think this could be fun for some spells/abilities. Maybe not all spells.
basically, i like both sides of the fence on this one. Seems as tho there are a lot of ideas when it comes to how and when. This is a fun thread to watch and read. so far.
As a Bard in Vanguard I know all too well about having 4 hotkey bars full and button mashing. That was my only complaint of the bard. But that kinda came with the territory of having so many tools. We had 3 dots to stack, many melee abilities with chain attacks, de-aggro's, and songs. Was a lot to manage. The better bards could still parse well and end up doing significant damage though. It was an all out button mashing extravaganza to get those high dps numbers. I didn't mind it so much though, it was more entertaining then hitting one nuke button repetitively over and over.
Moloka said:I didn't mind it so much though, it was more entertaining then hitting one nuke button repetitively over and over.
End game of EQ2 I basically only used 4, maybe 5 abilities consistantly. In raids or different situations I might span a whole hotbar or two, but that was only because the raids were designed to incorperate the abilities of each class. But the game as a whole, 6 full hotbars, I used 5 or 6 buttons.
What I'd like to see is getting the basic, core abilities for your class fairly quickly at the beginning, but still spread out over a few levels. For example, you could start with 2-3 abilities already, so you can jump right into class-specific play, and then every level get 1 or 2 new ones so you have time to learn them and get used to each one without being overwhelmed by getting them all thrown at you at once at the beginning. This can go on until you have maybe your first 10 skills or so, and you can learn these basics from the trainers in your starting city as these would be considered the bare minimum for anyone of that class to know. After that, however, the trainers in your city might not know everything, so for the more specialized abilities, or to further enhance your basic abilities, you might need to travel to a different city to train under different masters, or you might need to do quests or gain standing to prove yourself worthy for training by certain masters, even if they are in your city, as they won't train just anyone. The most prestigious masters would be hard to find, likely in dungeons, similar to what they're doing with the crafting system and the dwarf you find at the forge in Amberfaet. And for spells there is also the Research specialization for the Scribe skill, so you might be able to Research certain abilities yourself, or learn them from other player crafters.
So with a system like this you can start out getting to know your class quickly and the lower levels won't just be boring auto-attack grinds, but instead a period of quick growth and learning new things, that gradually slows down until you get to the point where you are no longer an apprentice and have to start putting in real work to advance and eventually master your skills. I think something like this would be the best of both worlds, and also would fit in nicely with a lot of the systems we already know about.
asterlea said:What I'd like to see is getting the basic, core abilities for your class fairly quickly at the beginning, but still spread out over a few levels. For example, you could start with 2-3 abilities already, so you can jump right into class-specific play.
I don't know how players [toons] are going to be introduced into the world. *POOF* There we are, or is there a story going along with our character and you wake up in an Inn room or something. IDK. But either way, I'd like our first "Quest" to be to talk to the trainer of the class we choose. Maybe if we wake up in a dimmly lit room our first NPC "Trainer" is standing over us saying something like Welcome to the Warriors Guild and gives us our first ability, asks us to do a task and gives us a second that is class specific then sends us on our way. So 1 generic ability (melee attack) and 1 class specific ability right out of the gate because we woke up in our classes guild hall or something....IDk...I'm not that creative.
Honestly, I don't think the start should be too creative, really. I don't want the game to script some sort of detailed or involved backstory that I'm just going to end up sharing with thousands of other players. Starting off in your class guild hall or whatever with a trainer saying "Hey, you're here, let's get started on your taining!" seems like a good way to get people right into it. Not that I'm against some creativity when it comes to differences that maybe show a bit of the cultural differences of the class or the city depending on where you start, but I'd personally prefer it to be as unobtrusive as possible so that you don't feel like you're stuck on some guided intro, but can quickly get out into the world and start exploring and chosing for yourself what you want to do in the game.
Bards in EQ got 1 new song per level. They always had a carrot stick. Even if it wasn't a spell that would ever be used (or rarely used) you still went ang got that new spell every level. Even travelling the world to get it.
Maybe they could do something like that with the classes. One new thing per level - even have a variety of options and you can choose one per level. You could still get all five abilities after five levels, just you chose a different order and pace of matery for each skill.
It's theory crafting while at the keyboard. But after reading the posts, the bard always had that carrot stick for the next level and didn't need to wait every 4 or 5 levels.
asterlea said:Honestly, I don't think the start should be too creative, really. I don't want the game to script some sort of detailed or involved backstory that I'm just going to end up sharing with thousands of other players. Starting off in your class guild hall or whatever with a trainer saying "Hey, you're here, let's get started on your taining!" seems like a good way to get people right into it. Not that I'm against some creativity when it comes to differences that maybe show a bit of the cultural differences of the class or the city depending on where you start, but I'd personally prefer it to be as unobtrusive as possible so that you don't feel like you're stuck on some guided intro, but can quickly get out into the world and start exploring and chosing for yourself what you want to do in the game.
Post more. Please.
I entirely agree that individual back-stories should be avoided. Those that want them can create them - those that do not want them will not care.
Racial back-stories are another matter entirely. Racial lore should be available in many ways including quests, talking to NPCs, items found in the world and the like.
We are all used to class trainers that we visit when gaining levels, though some games have phased these out.
A race trainer would be an excellent thing to have - not with that name of course. A keeper of elven or dwarvish or trollish etc. lore. Someone to tell you more about your race and its history as you gained levels or did quests and returned to him or her. Perhaps someone that bestowed racial abilities after especially epic quests.
We all expect racial abilities to be inherent - available simply from being a member of the race. And some or most should be. But why not one or two that you need to *earn*?