Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

Community Debate - How important are stats to you?

    • 1434 posts
    May 14, 2019 12:00 AM PDT

    disposalist said:

     

    Looking at the Twitter version of this, Bazgrim seems to think there is already a cosmetics system agreed for Pantheon?  Is that right?  Can someone point me at the info?

     

    Going off memory, it was strongly hinted by VR  in previous discussions about this that there probably will be something.  No details on what it will be or how it will work have been released to my knowledge.  Based on previous community debates on this topic, the general consensus among the community was that appearance slots with some limits were superior to a transmog/glamour type system, but that's about as far as we got in terms of a consensus.  Then, just as now, there were a wide variety of opinions on what should be possible and how it should work, and whether people should be able to toggle it off for others.

    • 849 posts
    May 14, 2019 12:33 AM PDT

    Stats are why we continue to play.  And as a side note I hope there are not 'appearance' slots.  


    This post was edited by Kittik at May 14, 2019 12:33 AM PDT
    • 3259 posts
    May 14, 2019 12:42 AM PDT

    disposalist said:

    Looking at the Twitter version of this, Bazgrim seems to think there is already a cosmetics system agreed for Pantheon?  Is that right?  Can someone point me at the info?

    From the FAQ:

    "The game world will contain thousands if not tens of thousands of items. That said, there can never be a 1:1 ratio between what you are specifically wearing and how you appear to other players. What you’re wearing does show off what you’ve accomplished, how high level you are, and what adventures you have undertaken to inspire others. Cosmetic gear will also be available, with players selecting how they want to view your character by toggling between adventure and cosmetic."

    That excerpt was added to the FAQ on 02/20/2017.  That same day, a thread popped up on the forum asking for clarification on the above:

    https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/5400/question-about-the-new-faq/view/post_id/95188

    Aradune's responses:

    "I'm glad you guys like it -- putting the cosmetic toggle in the hands of the person looking, not the person wearing, seems to be the way to go.  And the compromise came from people in the community -- much appreciated!"

    "Cosmetic items still have to be earned, either a drop, a quest reward, or bought for in-game currency.  Please de-couple cosmetic items with the need for a cash shop -- unnecessary."

    "My thoughts on what 'cosmetic' items are:

    Primarily they are items to change your characters appearance in a way that doesn't relate to combat -- they're for RP'ing and such, and are very important to many people in the Pantheon community.

    They *could* also, post-launch, evolve into horizontal paths of advancement and have non-combat related stats and attributes."

    Kilsin's response:

    "I am not sure what else you need my friend, it is pretty self-explanatory. You have the control, use a toggle to view normal gear on players or cosmetic gear, simple as that, everyone wins. That way people can use cosmetic items and enjoy looking unique and more to their liking but you can view them in normal gear without having to look at the cosmetic stuff."


    This post was edited by oneADseven at May 14, 2019 12:47 AM PDT
    • 1355 posts
    May 14, 2019 4:18 AM PDT

    Thanks for digging that stuff up for me, 1AD7.

    As I've said, though - everything they say ignores the fact that I set my look so that people see me how I want them to.

    If other people can switch off my cosmetics and see me in a way I don't, there's no point in them at all.

    Maybe I'm mistaken, but I don't think so: People who care about how their characters look care because of how other people perceive them, not how they look to themselves.

    The people who *really* care about their look - role-players - role play with others.  If I want my character in sinister shadowy dark leathers but half of other players see rainbow jester motley that's just ridiculous and makes it pointless.

    The more I read about 'cosmetics' the more I wonder if there should be two seperate concepts.

    It seems a lot of people, including the devs, when they talk about 'cosmetics' are not talking about overriding what individual gear pieces look like, but are talking about some kind of 'costumes' that players might RP in.

    I am not.  I'm talking about simply preferring the look of a piece of armor I used to wear more than the upgrade I just got and, so, I'd like to turn the previous one into a 'cosmetic' or 'wardrobe' or whatever and use it to override the look of the upgrade.

    Maybe we can have both?  I'm quite happy that people want to turn off 'cosmetics' if those cosmetics are things like ballgowns and other 'costumes' for non-combat RPing.  I will want to turn them off too, if every time I go to town it's like walking into a costume party.

    For actually making sure our adventuring gear looks how we like it, maybe we could have some kind of 'transmog' system that requires you to sacrifice an item in order to use it's look on another.

    An example to make it clear: -

    Let's say I play an elf warrior.  I wear plate armor, but I still like to look 'natural' so I go for earthy and natural colours and nothing too aggressively styled.  I like it when my armor gets dull and a little rusty. I want nothing too garish or shiny that would make me stand out like a sore thumb in my woodland home.

    I kill a dragon and get a fantastic upgrade drop The Breastplate of Shiney Suns.  It is a gold colour with high gloss, even glowing details.

    My character would cover it in dirt or at least cover it in a tabard if he could.  He would drape rusty chainmail and layer over leathers straps to tone it down.

    I don't expect that level of customisability, but a good and easy (development-wise) compromise is to transmog it to look like my previous breastplate.

    I'm happy for that previous breastplate to be destroyed in the process, magic or not.  In role-playing terms it would involve my character actually taking the old one apart and using it's components to alter the look of the new one.  In game-mechanic and limitation terms it would also mean you couldn't make plate look like leather or full armor look like a dress, which I am very happy with - I wouldn't want it that way.

    Anyway, I think I've more than made my point and have moaned long enough.  I'll hope for a transmog-like system, because it's sounds like cosmetics won't do what I want at all (I would say they won't really do what anyone wants if they can be ignored, but *shrug* that's perhaps just my opinion).


    This post was edited by disposalist at May 14, 2019 4:24 AM PDT
    • 298 posts
    May 14, 2019 5:32 AM PDT

    For me it depends on what point in character progression I have reached. Starting out and leveling up, it's definitely about whatever is Best-In-Slot available to me. Once I start hitting plateaus and spending longer amounts of time around the same power level, that's when Pretty Princess Dress-Up kicks in (which everyone knows is the true endgame in any MMO).

    I definitely love collecting sets of armor, and probably would place collecting everything I can higher on my priority list than having the highest stats I can get -- and Min/Maxing is definitely not something I care about or have the time for. Stats are important, though. You need enough HP/Mana/Whatever to accomplish your goals. I often find it's never actually necessary to max out, and I think that's a good thing, and affords me the freedom to be more creative with how I look (or wear all the pieces in that prestige set even if they aren't all Best-In-Slot).

    • 64 posts
    May 14, 2019 6:20 AM PDT

    Stats all the way.  For me these games are about the growth of my character.  Through levels and more powerful gear, so it is very important to have that carrot on a stick (armor and weapons) to make me continue playing and striving for that next item.  This ties into why items should take time and effort to achieve.  It is way too easy to achieve gear in most current MMoGs and I usually find myself getting bored and leaving them.  If I feel like I have invested more time and effort in growing my character I will be less inclined to leave him.

    That doesn't mean I want my character to look like a jester.  Something needs to be added to help your character look good, like dyes.  I understand though why people will want to personalize their character and put a bit of their own identity in the game, but for me if equipment is nothing more than cosmetic?  It just turns the game into a dress up chat room for me.

    I do usually play a mage character and 90% of my looks are tied into a robe so take what I say with a big ol' grain of salt.


    This post was edited by Walpurgis at May 14, 2019 6:21 AM PDT
    • 12 posts
    May 14, 2019 6:21 AM PDT
    I used to main a rng in Eq so i will basically wear anything with even miniscule stat improvements in the vain hope that it will somehow keep me alive longer.
    • 298 posts
    May 14, 2019 6:37 AM PDT

    Walpurgis said:

    Stats all the way.  For me these games are about the growth of my character.  Through levels and more powerful gear, so it is very important to have that carrot on a stick (armor and weapons) to make me continue playing and striving for that next item.  This ties into why items should take time and effort to achieve.  It is way too easy to achieve gear in most current MMoGs and I usually find myself getting bored and leaving them.  If I feel like I have invested more time and effort in growing my character I will be less inclined to leave him.

    That doesn't mean I want my character to look like a jester.  Something needs to be added to help your character look good, like dyes.  I understand though why people will want to personalize their character and put a bit of their own identity in the game, but for me if equipment is nothing more than cosmetic?  It just turns the game into a dress up chat room for me.

    I do usually play a mage character and 90% of my looks are tied into a robe so take what I say with a big ol' grain of salt.

    I do think having prestige items come with unique textures is far more important than what color they are. Dyes are a good middle ground where people who don't care about showing off their prestige sets and do care about stats above all else can still look like they're wearing a coherent set of armor and not just hobo scavanging whatever comes along.

    That said, knowing that the person in all purple plate is wearing their Plane of Hate set is valuable, I think, and some way to keep prestige sets unique looking is useful. Having them not just be the same skin as other items but in a special color is a way to do this. If I see someone in all green but can still recognize what they're wearing as the Plane of Hate set, I think that is actually cool.

    • 298 posts
    May 14, 2019 6:38 AM PDT

    I also think a lot of games make the mistake of the "caster" class basically being a giant robe with no other distinguisahable characteristics, and it takes a lot of the fun of the Dress-Up game out of it for those classes.

    I don't know how you fix that. Maybe making armor pieces under the robe show up as runes/glyphs on the robe or something. I don't know how complicated that would be to actually do.

    • 1714 posts
    May 14, 2019 7:40 AM PDT

    Chanus said:

    I also think a lot of games make the mistake of the "caster" class basically being a giant robe with no other distinguisahable characteristics, and it takes a lot of the fun of the Dress-Up game out of it for those classes.

    I don't know how you fix that. Maybe making armor pieces under the robe show up as runes/glyphs on the robe or something. I don't know how complicated that would be to actually do.

    Easy..ditch the robe concept completely.  It doesn't even need to cover the entire body but could be more open, more like a Jedi robe really, that allows the clothing underneath to be seen.

    • 298 posts
    May 14, 2019 7:59 AM PDT

    Vandraad said:

    Chanus said:

    I also think a lot of games make the mistake of the "caster" class basically being a giant robe with no other distinguisahable characteristics, and it takes a lot of the fun of the Dress-Up game out of it for those classes.

    I don't know how you fix that. Maybe making armor pieces under the robe show up as runes/glyphs on the robe or something. I don't know how complicated that would be to actually do.

    Easy..ditch the robe concept completely.  It doesn't even need to cover the entire body but could be more open, more like a Jedi robe really, that allows the clothing underneath to be seen.

    That works, too!

    • 1197 posts
    May 14, 2019 8:41 AM PDT

    If we're talking strictly about cloth clothing, robes vs. dresses, I'd take pants any day, as an option.  I'm comfortable enough in a kilt, dress, or whatever you'd care to call it if the stats are right, but for me, having an option for  visible pants + anything else would be nice, to be sure.  Cloth simulation has certainly come a long way, too, in terms of visual quality vs. performance trade-offs, in Unity.

    • 235 posts
    May 14, 2019 8:42 AM PDT

    Kilsin said:

    Community Debate - How important are stats to you? Would you rather look good in the world of Terminus or mix and match to have an extra +2 Str and Con to deal with its inhabitants? #MMORPG #communitymatters

    For me, this is harder than I'd like it to be. On the one hand, the way you look in game is important. It makes it easy for someone to recognize what you are. You put a lot of time and effort into getting that certain visual that you want to project to the rest of the players on your server, even within the same class. For example, some wizards might stick with a fire motif, while others like the frosty look and still others like the arcane.

    On the other hand, stats are one of the big ways we measure our character's progress. They are how we improve as we level up and become stronger and better equipped to face tougher challenges. I think we all agree stats should increase as our levels do. How that happens, well, that's the $64,000 question. MMO's (even back to MUD's) have always had items with stats on them. What I never liked was having all the latest and greatest stuff from raids and such, then immediately replacing it with common drops after a new expansion hits. All my gear that took hours and hours of dedicated raiding with a guild now pales in comparision to something I just got off a_random_orc_pawn_03 in a new area. I think something I'd like to see would be stat increases at character levels rather than wholly on gear. Not eliminating it from gear, just minimizing it to make your character and those choices matter more than gear drops. 

    I guess the answer is both. It's good having a way to measure and increase our character's strength, but I still want to look the part.

    • 1434 posts
    May 14, 2019 12:05 PM PDT

    Vandraad said:

    Chanus said:

    I also think a lot of games make the mistake of the "caster" class basically being a giant robe with no other distinguisahable characteristics, and it takes a lot of the fun of the Dress-Up game out of it for those classes.

    I don't know how you fix that. Maybe making armor pieces under the robe show up as runes/glyphs on the robe or something. I don't know how complicated that would be to actually do.

    Easy..ditch the robe concept completely.  It doesn't even need to cover the entire body but could be more open, more like a Jedi robe really, that allows the clothing underneath to be seen.

    One of the subtle things I liked in Vanguard was that there were two versions of cloth armor tops - robes, and shirts.  Same stats, but you didn't have to run around in a robe if you didn't want to.

    • 181 posts
    May 15, 2019 6:19 AM PDT

    Kilsin said:

    Community Debate - How important are stats to you? Would you rather look good in the world of Terminus or mix and match to have an extra +2 Str and Con to deal with its inhabitants? #MMORPG #communitymatters

    it is not that stats are too important, it is that looks are completely and utterly not important.

     

    so stats >> looks

    sometimes: utility >> stats

    for example +10% running speed is more important than +2 str and con.

    • 298 posts
    May 15, 2019 8:33 AM PDT

    Um excuse me looks are totally important.

    • Moderator
    • 8622 posts
    May 15, 2019 4:14 PM PDT

    Thread cleaned up, please keep it on topic guys, I appreciate the fun game that broke out, feel free to create a new thread in Off-Topic to start a new one but this was not the place for it.

    I also "Un-Broke" the thread. :)

    • 328 posts
    May 15, 2019 5:26 PM PDT

    oneADseven said:

    disposalist said:

    Looking at the Twitter version of this, Bazgrim seems to think there is already a cosmetics system agreed for Pantheon?  Is that right?  Can someone point me at the info?

    From the FAQ:

     

     

    Kilsin's response:

    "I am not sure what else you need my friend, it is pretty self-explanatory. You have the control, use a toggle to view normal gear on players or cosmetic gear, simple as that, everyone wins. That way people can use cosmetic items and enjoy looking unique and more to their liking but you can view them in normal gear without having to look at the cosmetic stuff."

    Not trying to derail, but this is great news to me. I don't want cosmetic armor and LOVE that I don't have to see Dyed armor or cosmetics, ever. 

    Stats and armor recognition are always a winner in my book. I don't want a game where a player can look amazing but really has a rusty dagger and a loincloth in reality. 

    • 467 posts
    May 15, 2019 5:27 PM PDT

    As far as nice looks go, I feel the first 2/3 of the characters career they should mix and match armor. They shouldn't look as put together as a late game hero.

    Matching armor, to me, has always seemed better suited (haha) to high level characters.

    Mid vs. late game :)

    • 161 posts
    May 16, 2019 8:21 PM PDT

    I like my character looking awesome, but not at the cost of stats and survival.  My group would state the same. But I definitely keep fancy looking gear to put on when I'm in town or messing around with friends, guildmates, etc.

    • 87 posts
    May 17, 2019 11:07 AM PDT
    Lol this topic is always 50/50 it is at my house as well. I buy stuff because it is the best at what it does. Like a knife set that holds its edge vrs my wife a knife set that looks good. But what i have learned on this topic is you cant please one or the other an when you can its epic.
    • 389 posts
    May 19, 2019 3:19 PM PDT

    Stats first looks second ,  Having said that .... 

    Please no repeat of EQ2 with every caster and thier relative wearing lilac lavender robes . Seriously no individuality .

    I am for dye's , Not dye's that allow you to make Pepto bismol colors or Neon Green , But using the colors already within Terminus's color palette . ( therefor retaining everyone individuality ). Not infringing on the games palette or BTW . I am certain some crafter will be making potions and such,  add the ability to make dye's .

     


    This post was edited by Shea at May 20, 2019 5:47 AM PDT
    • 469 posts
    May 19, 2019 5:57 PM PDT

    Kilsin said:

    Community Debate - How important are stats to you? Would you rather look good in the world of Terminus or mix and match to have an extra +2 Str and Con to deal with its inhabitants? #MMORPG #communitymatters

    Like it or not stats are very important. They help with the feeling of progression and growth. But I would personally like to see stat growth be kept smaller so that when you did get a +5 or +10 piece of gear it means something. I don't like stat bloat. By that I mean getting +20, +50, +100 stat X gear halfway through the game and having over 20k hps by level cap. But you need to look good while doing the deeds, so we all need some flashy cloths. ;p


    This post was edited by Kratuk at May 19, 2019 5:58 PM PDT
    • 1039 posts
    May 20, 2019 10:38 AM PDT

    Kratuk said:

    Kilsin said:

    Community Debate - How important are stats to you? Would you rather look good in the world of Terminus or mix and match to have an extra +2 Str and Con to deal with its inhabitants? #MMORPG #communitymatters

    Like it or not stats are very important. They help with the feeling of progression and growth. But I would personally like to see stat growth be kept smaller so that when you did get a +5 or +10 piece of gear it means something. I don't like stat bloat. By that I mean getting +20, +50, +100 stat X gear halfway through the game and having over 20k hps by level cap. But you need to look good while doing the deeds, so we all need some flashy cloths. ;p

    LoTRO had very small stat increments in its progression, but unfortunately a lot of people complained that it wasn't "significant" to get a feeling of value in their progression. Personally, I liked the small progressions as I have always seen the "huge" number increases in many MMOs to be... arcadish, superficial.

    I agree though, progression is important and stats are a key concept of progression development and management. I just wish more attention was given to the negatives, or rather choice and consequence was implemented back into RPG systems as over the years the goal has been less about management of choices and more about appealing to vanity, power gaming, and positive reinforcement. I really think for the basis of a solid development system is rooted in that of having to deal with the good and bad of the decisions made. Most MMOs are just various decisions of benefits with no negatives to balance them out.


    This post was edited by Tanix at May 20, 2019 10:39 AM PDT
    • 994 posts
    May 20, 2019 10:50 AM PDT

    Tanix said:

    Kratuk said:

    Kilsin said:

    Community Debate - How important are stats to you? Would you rather look good in the world of Terminus or mix and match to have an extra +2 Str and Con to deal with its inhabitants? #MMORPG #communitymatters

    Like it or not stats are very important. They help with the feeling of progression and growth. But I would personally like to see stat growth be kept smaller so that when you did get a +5 or +10 piece of gear it means something. I don't like stat bloat. By that I mean getting +20, +50, +100 stat X gear halfway through the game and having over 20k hps by level cap. But you need to look good while doing the deeds, so we all need some flashy cloths. ;p

    LoTRO had very small stat increments in its progression, but unfortunately a lot of people complained that it wasn't "significant" to get a feeling of value in their progression. Personally, I liked the small progressions as I have always seen the "huge" number increases in many MMOs to be... arcadish, superficial.

    I agree though, progression is important and stats are a key concept of progression development and management. I just wish more attention was given to the negatives, or rather choice and consequence was implemented back into RPG systems as over the years the goal has been less about management of choices and more about appealing to vanity, power gaming, and positive reinforcement. I really think for the basis of a solid development system is rooted in that of having to deal with the good and bad of the decisions made. Most MMOs are just various decisions of benefits with no negatives to balance them out.

    your stats are bigger than my stats ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) but im more faboulous~