Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

Community Debate - How important are stats to you?

    • 1039 posts
    May 13, 2019 11:01 AM PDT

    I prefer a game and to focus on look over stats is to be concerned less over the game and more over non-game play. Nothing wrong with people doing such, but... I think that if someone chooses to do such, there should be an acceptance in performance loss. The answer might suprise some people who prefer looks over stats...

    The reason is:

    1) Game play

    I think stats are game play, they provide the means for people to excel, evolve, and move forward in a world. Graphics do nothing for game play, they are subjective appeal only.

    That said...

    2) Visual Appel in such a system is "earned" through play. This means, how you look is a function of your current ability and success. This is a secondary carrot for some players. That is, because visual appeal is important to them, they are in a constant search for the new item of current ability that will provide them the look they seek. This creates a layer of objective as not only will stats be important, but finding the right item that provides both will be as well.

     

    Now.. here is the issue. VR must then provide "some" variety in their gear (ie considering some fashion design/makeup/symetry with the items). This way players have a layered carrot. For those that don't care, they go after whatever drops, getting the "stats" to improve, but... for those who want more, who want that "look", it may mean searching out "specific" items that meet both qualifications of stat and look.

    Granted look is subjective, but... I think if some attention is put to the fashion design of gear in terms of the symetry in color/design, players will be able to achieve both (or within an acceptable means).

    That would be a game play solution, but... if they offer appearance slots, the "Game play" design goes out the window.

    • 265 posts
    May 13, 2019 11:01 AM PDT

    I think there are tons of factors here. In EQ I passed gear once or twice because I didn't like the looks... but I was an Enchanter with already great gear and the upgrades were minor. It doesn't have to be "ugly gear with good stats" vs "attractive gear with bad stats" it could simply mean the set doesn't match. In general if its an extremely minor upgrade I'm going to pick what looks cooler, but stats are typically the most important to me.

     

    disposalist said:

    Bazgrim pointed me at the relavent FAQ: -

    4.8 What kind of equipment visualization can we expect to see on characters?

    The game world will contain thousands if not tens of thousands of items. That said, there can never be a 1:1 ratio between what you are specifically wearing and how you appear to other players. What you’re wearing does show off what you’ve accomplished, how high level you are, and what adventures you have undertaken to inspire others. Cosmetic gear will also be available, with players selecting how they want to view your character by toggling between adventure and cosmetic.

    I have to say I'm very disappointed.  The toggle makes cosmetics pointless to me.  I'm not going to bother setting up a cosmetic look I like when half players will see a mish-mash look that I don't want them to and don't even see myself.

    Sounds like if I really want people to see the character I wish to portray, I will have to be sacrificing stats and other things or be forever irritated by certain items that I don't like the look of.  Flashback to garish EQ 'costumes' :^(

     

    I guess this is perspective. You look at it as people have to turn on cosmetic, I look at it as I get to turn cosmetic off. I love FF14 and think it's a great MMO... but the glamor is out of hand. Everyone runs around half naked. If I could turn it off I would. 

     

     

    • 1268 posts
    May 13, 2019 11:20 AM PDT

    EppE said:

     

    I guess this is perspective. You look at it as people have to turn on cosmetic, I look at it as I get to turn cosmetic off. I love FF14 and think it's a great MMO... but the glamor is out of hand. Everyone runs around half naked. If I could turn it off I would. 

    I agree with you EppE.  I support the idea of a cosmetic system to an extent, but there is such a thing as allowing people to take it too far.

    I do feel like too often this gets treated as an all-or-nothing kind of thing.  I think an appearance system that allows players to use the appearance of one item in place of another is fine, but there should be a flag on what can be used as an appearance item and what can't be.  That breastplate you had from level 20 that you really liked should absolutely have the APPEARANCE flag on it, so you can use it to cover up your ugly level 37 breastplate.  That ballroom gown you got in town?  Nope.  Doesn't have the flag.  You want to be seen in that, you're going without any AC value.  Plan accordingly.

    • 265 posts
    May 13, 2019 11:26 AM PDT

    Nephele said:

    EppE said:

     

    I guess this is perspective. You look at it as people have to turn on cosmetic, I look at it as I get to turn cosmetic off. I love FF14 and think it's a great MMO... but the glamor is out of hand. Everyone runs around half naked. If I could turn it off I would. 

    I agree with you EppE.  I support the idea of a cosmetic system to an extent, but there is such a thing as allowing people to take it too far.

    I do feel like too often this gets treated as an all-or-nothing kind of thing.  I think an appearance system that allows players to use the appearance of one item in place of another is fine, but there should be a flag on what can be used as an appearance item and what can't be.  That breastplate you had from level 20 that you really liked should absolutely have the APPEARANCE flag on it, so you can use it to cover up your ugly level 37 breastplate.  That ballroom gown you got in town?  Nope.  Doesn't have the flag.  You want to be seen in that, you're going without any AC value.  Plan accordingly.

     

    I forget which game... I think Aion maybe... had a setting so you could have a set of cosmetic gear for when in town. When you got in town it would toggle to your cosmetic gear and you could walk around. When you left it went back to your combat gear. 

    • 116 posts
    May 13, 2019 11:49 AM PDT
    It’s interesting how varied the opinions are on this topic. I think it really speaks to how individuals approach the game in different ways, which is why I think an item’s appearance should represent what type of player you are. If it’s an ugly BP with ridiculously good stats, that tells the world about what is important to you as a player. Conversely, if you’re wearing a matched set of armour that looks sweet, you are probably sacrificing some stats for that look. This also communicates to the world who you are as a player. If anyone remembers the Ranger weapon “Culler” from PoH in EQ, I think this is a good example. It was not the best looking Ranger weapon, but it had stats and some cache attached to it, so I accepted its look. I think it’s important to have to make these kinds of choices. Of course, when stats and looks are both high, those are the most sought after items, which makes the choice less difficult. Just my thoughts. Cheers!
    • 263 posts
    May 13, 2019 11:50 AM PDT

    Kilsin said:

    Community Debate - How important are stats to you? Would you rather look good in the world of Terminus or mix and match to have an extra +2 Str and Con to deal with its inhabitants? #MMORPG #communitymatters

    If that means giving up stats for appearance, I'll pass and go for the stats. If that is the primary gimic of the game, it might not be my game for much longer though. Appearances do matter, since it's a way to personalize and get into your character. The more I can get attuned to my character, the more enjoyement I'll get from playing that game with that character. However with my raiding carrier in mind, I will try to mix and match (and hope that in Pantheon appearance sets are a thing or will become in a thing in the future).

    Since I can spend hours (even days/weeks grinding for a single piece of appearance or faction gear) searching for a specific outfit for each of my characters in any game. I'll look for different outfits for different classes/fighting styles. In the long run it will indentify my playstyle and I'll feel more connected to the character and thus the game. 

    When it's all about stats, and I have to wear a kilt with a purple sword and a flaming hat. I'll be put off and I will walk away, sorry.

    Allowing appearances to be turned on or off is definately an option. Allow players to showcase themselves how they want to be seen in the world. If they don't care how they look, perhaps make that the default setting. Those players who want to differentiate for appearance, will dig through the ui and find the options to showcase their preferences.

    • 710 posts
    May 13, 2019 11:51 AM PDT

    I don't care what I look like honestly. If it is better and I win it, I will use it. I am not a min/maxer, but I will always go for an upgrade in the end and wear it. Hopefully dyes come into place. I liked the dyes in EQ when I colored my Paladin with white and gold dye.

    • 148 posts
    May 13, 2019 12:19 PM PDT

    Stats any day of the week. gimme that +1 wisdom.

    • 187 posts
    May 13, 2019 12:21 PM PDT

    For me it is definitely stats over appearance. I'll always upgrade given the chance though I've certainly bemoaned giving up items whose look I really enjoyed.

    • 263 posts
    May 13, 2019 12:43 PM PDT

    Kilsin said:

    Community Debate - How important are stats to you? Would you rather look good in the world of Terminus or mix and match to have an extra +2 Str and Con to deal with its inhabitants? #MMORPG #communitymatters

    I'ld like to add the following consideration; How long will gear be worn. If you get upgrades every 2 hours, or ones every 2 weeks or 1/month. This could impact how appearances are considered and experienced. If the mix and match rate is very high, gear will be switched out so fast, few might bother to view how it looks.

    • 1011 posts
    May 13, 2019 12:55 PM PDT

    EppE said:

    I think there are tons of factors here. In EQ I passed gear once or twice because I didn't like the looks... but I was an Enchanter with already great gear and the upgrades were minor. It doesn't have to be "ugly gear with good stats" vs "attractive gear with bad stats" it could simply mean the set doesn't match. In general if its an extremely minor upgrade I'm going to pick what looks cooler, but stats are typically the most important to me. 

    disposalist said:

    Bazgrim pointed me at the relavent FAQ: -

    4.8 What kind of equipment visualization can we expect to see on characters?

    The game world will contain thousands if not tens of thousands of items. That said, there can never be a 1:1 ratio between what you are specifically wearing and how you appear to other players. What you’re wearing does show off what you’ve accomplished, how high level you are, and what adventures you have undertaken to inspire others. Cosmetic gear will also be available, with players selecting how they want to view your character by toggling between adventure and cosmetic.

    I have to say I'm very disappointed.  The toggle makes cosmetics pointless to me.  I'm not going to bother setting up a cosmetic look I like when half players will see a mish-mash look that I don't want them to and don't even see myself.

    Sounds like if I really want people to see the character I wish to portray, I will have to be sacrificing stats and other things or be forever irritated by certain items that I don't like the look of.  Flashback to garish EQ 'costumes' :^(

     

    I guess this is perspective. You look at it as people have to turn on cosmetic, I look at it as I get to turn cosmetic off. I love FF14 and think it's a great MMO... but the glamor is out of hand. Everyone runs around half naked. If I could turn it off I would.

    The problem there is the cosmetics being ridiculous not the omission of a switch.  Actually, I look at it as: a lot of people will turn off cosmetics, so will not see what I want my character to look like so the whole thing is pointless.

    Also, this quoting stuff is broken :/


    This post was edited by Kilsin at May 15, 2019 3:55 PM PDT
    • 1011 posts
    May 13, 2019 1:01 PM PDT

    Nephele said:

    EppE said: 

    I guess this is perspective. You look at it as people have to turn on cosmetic, I look at it as I get to turn cosmetic off. I love FF14 and think it's a great MMO... but the glamor is out of hand. Everyone runs around half naked. If I could turn it off I would. 

    I agree with you EppE.  I support the idea of a cosmetic system to an extent, but there is such a thing as allowing people to take it too far.

    I do feel like too often this gets treated as an all-or-nothing kind of thing.  I think an appearance system that allows players to use the appearance of one item in place of another is fine, but there should be a flag on what can be used as an appearance item and what can't be.  That breastplate you had from level 20 that you really liked should absolutely have the APPEARANCE flag on it, so you can use it to cover up your ugly level 37 breastplate.  That ballroom gown you got in town?  Nope.  Doesn't have the flag.  You want to be seen in that, you're going without any AC value.  Plan accordingly.

    Absolutely. I think whatever 'cosmetic' appearance you set should actually have to be of the same type - so no paladins fighting in dresses - and also, some items - like social clothes - should be cosmetic *only*, so no stats or AC at all.

    To be honest, I don't want to see ballgowns and that kind of 'social' stuff at all, whether in town or not.  Well maybe... I'd rather not though.

    I'm just saying - if folks can choose to 'see through' what you are wanting your character to look like then the whole effort is wasted.  May as well not have cosmetics and save the dev time.

    If cosmetics are switch-off-able (and, so, pointless) I'd greatly prefer VR just don't bother and they concentrate on making a good variety of good looking gear.

    • 245 posts
    May 13, 2019 2:17 PM PDT

    Visual appearance is something that is of great importance to me, and the need to choose a piece of gear that I find unappealing with great stats over one that looks better has been the cause of much aggravation in many MMO’s over the years.

    I’m not a min/max player, so if the benefit isn't noticeable to me without a spreadsheet I’ll disregard the Stat increase for looks, and begrudgingly wear the ugly one if it is noticeable.

    • 1381 posts
    May 13, 2019 2:18 PM PDT

    Stats are important if they make intuitive sense.

    For instance, if I am a warrior and I have a 2 hander and a sword and shield.

    If I want to use the 2 hander more often It makes sense that i have  strength in my arms to wield it and in my hands to hold it, so I look  for STR in sleeves and gauntlets- maybe shoulders too.

    If I want to use the sword and shield it makes sense I have more strength in my hands, but agility in my arms to pull the shield up and counter with the sword, so I look for higher STR in gloves and AGI in sleeves

    • 758 posts
    May 13, 2019 3:00 PM PDT
    If I had a favorite stat piece that looks bad, It would be great to have a way to craft various appearance options by combing it with a multitude of different lootable items found in the game world. Depending on what stat item and which world item combined would give you unique appearances. This would be a fun way to experiment and see what possible combinations are out there. This would also make stat items worth something, each individual has their own taste and that would satisfy the issue. Lastly, it would create a lot of discovery hype if a particular item combination becomes popular.
    • 274 posts
    May 13, 2019 3:51 PM PDT

    Kilsin said:

    Community Debate - How important are stats to you? Would you rather look good in the world of Terminus or mix and match to have an extra +2 Str and Con to deal with its inhabitants? #MMORPG #communitymatters

    Stats are super important to me as they are what give my character progress and opens up more opportunites for me, with that said I would choose stats over appearance, but I'd prefer to Mix n Match to try and look semi-cool/exotic. In EQ as a Cleric, I wore a CLR only robe for about 35 levels becuase I couldnt get anything with better stats. I hated looking at it because it made my character look like a Necro, I felt I should be wearing a BP because thats what all the really high level clerics had on for BiS. Sucks when that happnes but yeah i need the stats and I still care 100% about what i look like. So i guess ill take ugly but good over pretty and bad......Or mix n match and look okay and stats are ok.

    • 71 posts
    May 13, 2019 5:12 PM PDT

     

    Stats over style anyday of the week for me...

    • 27 posts
    May 13, 2019 5:32 PM PDT

    Stats are what I work for, pretty is for the casual player. That one +str may be the differents between life or death in a hard fight.

     

    • 1789 posts
    May 13, 2019 5:32 PM PDT

    Kilsin said:

    Community Debate - How important are stats to you? Would you rather look good in the world of Terminus or mix and match to have an extra +2 Str and Con to deal with its inhabitants? #MMORPG #communitymatters

    I want both worlds, stat gear with appearance gear to use on top of it. 

    If I can’t have both, I will go stats.

    • 4 posts
    May 13, 2019 6:54 PM PDT

    Being a person who is really into raiding and grouping with people to get better items, im gonna go with stats over looks.. However, i feel that those items with the best stats should look unique. every boss should have one super rare item that is highly sought after with great stats, maybe a unique effect or something, that also looks cool and players would want to wear.

    • 2 posts
    May 13, 2019 8:47 PM PDT

    I can go either way as long as it's not garish over-the-top looking gear.

    Part of immersive role-playing for me is the "relative" believability of the characters you play and those you encounter along the way.

    I strongly prefer realistic over cartoonish... not boring though... I don't mind a flaming sword so long as it's not 9' long and the size of a small car... ;)


    This post was edited by Eldryn at May 13, 2019 8:48 PM PDT
    • 94 posts
    May 13, 2019 9:05 PM PDT

    Stats will win every time over looks. But there are times stats will not win for example an item with a clicky I will at times get to lazy to keep switching it.

    • 249 posts
    May 13, 2019 11:23 PM PDT

    I will go stats every time.  At Velious in EQ (back in the original release) I was a cleric that had Purple, Green, silver, gold, navy, and gray. (not including the glowing snow cone and glowing shield I had or the Blue Skin from being Dark Elf) 

    I looked like a rainbow but I was also UBER UBER decked out in stats as well. so I didn't care at all about the look.

    I raided 6-7 days a week for 3 years to get all that. I was proud of every piece no matter what it looked like. 


    This post was edited by Flapp at May 13, 2019 11:24 PM PDT
    • 39 posts
    May 13, 2019 11:24 PM PDT

    Both, which is why I like appearance slots. If I exclude that, then it depends on the amount of stats, I am inclined to go stats over looks, but if it is not much I might go the opposite way.

    • 145 posts
    May 13, 2019 11:56 PM PDT

    simply answering the question: Stats.

    More elaborate answer: I aim to be beneficial to the group and thus immerse myself into the grouping scene, when you are unable to perform your class's duty's due to prioritizing looks over stats in my mind you are doing things wrong. I will aim to get the best stats possible depending on the situation. Stats are however not the only thing making a character perform the way they do. Looks do nothing at all thats a fact (right?). 

    So as a rule of thumb: 2ndary stats get raised (most likely hp or resists) when primary stat reaches soft caps. When at or near soft cap, alternative effects (procs, focus items etc.) will get priority as they are more likely to improve my performance, making it more enjoyable to me to play, and maybe in certain situations also less stressfull.