Feign death is often blamed as a tool that can be used for griefing and I have seen lots of people talk about removing the skill or reducing it to stop this. I wonder if there isn’t an easier way to combat this. Make it so players can cancel other players out of FD for mobs they share agro on.
Example:
Monk is agro on monster X
Monk pulls monster X onto group and FD’s
Monster X is now agro on player Tank but still remembers Monk was on agro list (not cleared till monster X resets)
Tank cancels monks FD for monster X (and all other mobs that they both share agro on)
Monk cannot FD agro off monster X again (monster will attack monk as if they were not FD) and must either zone or die
This doesn’t stop griefing but it stops the griefer having an easy time of it. I’d even go so far as to say that when a player does this, the monk gains top agro. Again this can only be used by players who themselves are agro on a target so they too would be committed to fighting the target. Last limitation I would place is that classes who have FD cannot use this or if they do they also cannot FD the monster agro anymore.
I use a monk in this example but any class that has an FD mechanic would be susceptible to this. Call it an option of mutual annihilation.
Melamber said:Feign death is often blamed as a tool that can be used for griefing...
I'm curious about your definition of 'often' because for my 10 year EQ1 tenure, a FD class deliberately griefed me, my group or my raid only a few times..probably less than 10 times. Far more common was a non-FD class that was running away from stuff chasing them and would end up dying near enough to my location that the NPCs would then aggro onto my group/raid. If you ever went into Karnor Castle, you know of what I speak. People running away from mobs to the zoneline killed far more people than any monk/necro using FD. Same for zones like BlackBurrow, Crushbone, Unrest, SolA, SolB...need I go on?
Getting rid of FD or otherwise creating hokey mechanics is a solution to a problem that just doesn't exist in realistic quantities to need such changes.
It’s a topic that I have seen brought up many times. It certainly happened to me when I played EQ live on a number of occasions. The solution I’ve proposed above is not crazy complex and in a game where the devs have already stated they will remain mostly hands off I think anything that counters potential griefing without having strong negatives attached it to is good.
I certainly think it’s better than removing what I feel is an interesting and useful mechanic from the game (which has been proposed).
dorotea said:Since the only abuse I can see from this offhand is people in your own group trying to grief you - which could happen but it seems a lot less likely than the problem this suggestion is intended to ameliorate - I agree.
Same. Given this form of toxic behavior is non-stop on the EQ1 TLP servers, anything is better than nothing for Pantheon, given they've demonstrated it (humerously) as being a griefing tool, so far.
Personally? I would rather see a more generalized approach to chasing in general, and have FD be removed as a pulling tool entirely, but it does change the nature of the class, which some customers may find pretty jarring.
What do I mean specifically? A graduated "being chased" snare applied to the runner, per mob chasing the runner. Percentages tuned based on level, level disparity, zone type, and more.
That way, if you're outdoors, and they're green mobs? You'll probably get away, maybe it's only 1-5% per chaser. If you're in a dungeon, and you have a lethal train of a dozen reds chasing you? Seems reasonable you would be snared so badly you couldn't train anyone else, but would be run down like the coward you are and critically hit + stunned until dead, after only taking a few very slow steps. Something like 20-30% per chaser, increasing by many percent per second. :) Tune appropriately for easy-mode vs. hardcore.
You could also make it so it gets progressively worse, second by second, so the farther you go and the larger the train, the snare increases rapidly. That way, if you're pulling a single or doubles? No big deal, proceed. More? "Being Chased" kicks in so quickly, you won't make it back to your group. Accidentally pull 5? FD until they return to their spawn points.
And change the re-use timer on FD to be 45+ minutes, if you don't want it used as a pulling tool.
Additionally, you could adjust the "being chased" so that if a mob was rooted or otherwise incapacitated, it couldn't apply the "being chased" to you. That way, things like rooting a second to pull the first would be a valid tactic, and you wouldn't get "being chased" to death.
Similarly adding luring, tempting, or distraction mechanics for all players, via crafting consumables, would add innovation to pulling and make it viable for anyone, instead of just those classes with lull, pacify, fade, mez, root, fd, charm, and so on.
My point is that there are a huge number of elegant ways to solve the training problem, and all of them can focus on the trainers, not the intended targets of the trainer. For any of this to matter, though, Visionary Realms would have to show a willingness to change FD, ever, so it won't be used as a malicious training tool. So far, there's no such willingness. It's one of a very short list of mechanics that are going into the game that guarantee toxic social interactions, but I suppose it's their niche to narrow or expand as they wish. I just hope it's not too narrow with malicious training in Pantheon, at launch.
I dont knew if FD is even planned or not but if it is im not worried about griefing. The only way to be safe against griefing is to instance everything and since i dont want that i dont think to much time should be put into comming up with work arounds for specific skills. If you can "remove" someones FD you indirectly create a option for "reverse" griefing by "waking up" the FD when he dont want to.
I like to point out though that "pulling tools" are extreamly important. Its a vital gameplay that somewhat dissapared after EQ, removing pulling tools is to dumb down content so there is no need of pulling tools. Thats bad
Lol this would be so exploitable that it's funny. I question the ops experience.
Warioc said:I dont knew if FD is even planned or not but if it is im not worried about griefing. The only way to be safe against griefing is to instance everything and since i dont want that i dont think to much time should be put into comming up with work arounds for specific skills. If you can "remove" someones FD you indirectly create a option for "reverse" griefing by "waking up" the FD when he dont want to.
I like to point out though that "pulling tools" are extreamly important. Its a vital gameplay that somewhat dissapared after EQ, removing pulling tools is to dumb down content so there is no need of pulling tools. Thats bad
Sure but the price of the reverse griefing is you now have agro on the mob(s) the monk pulled. Also I generally find that griefers are solo players who run around enjoying the fun of disrupting groups. I don’t normally see a group of players grief a solo player. If the tank in question used this to reverse grief a legit monk you can bet that some of the people in the group would either call him out on it or leave.
Vandraad said:I'm curious about your definition of 'often' because for my 10 year EQ1 tenure, a FD class deliberately griefed me, my group or my raid only a few times..probably less than 10 times. Far more common was a non-FD class that was running away from stuff chasing them and would end up dying near enough to my location that the NPCs would then aggro onto my group/raid. If you ever went into Karnor Castle, you know of what I speak. People running away from mobs to the zoneline killed far more people than any monk/necro using FD. Same for zones like BlackBurrow, Crushbone, Unrest, SolA, SolB...need I go on?
Getting rid of FD or otherwise creating hokey mechanics is a solution to a problem that just doesn't exist in realistic quantities to need such changes.
This! ^^
Don't ruin my FD!
Fragile said:Don't ruin my FD!
I’m not trying to ruin FD. As it stands it can clearly be used to grief (and historically has), so rather than have it be nerfed or remove I am trying to put forward a solution that leaves it functionally intact but limits it’s griefing potential.
If you can show me how this idea doesn’t work to address griefing or even better postulate a better solution I’m keen to hear it.
FD griefing is usually very rare, unless we are talking PVP then its not really griefing at all just tactics.
FD training on entire raids is already punishable I assume, as GM's usually have no tolerance for that stuff and with 30 witnesses its easy to have that person banned or suspended for being a jerk.
Melamber said:philo said:Lol this would be so exploitable that it's funny. I question the ops experience.
I appreciate your contributing to the discussion; care to explain why you feel this way?
It shouldn't have to be said, but since you asked, this is a joke right? : "Tank cancels monks FD for monster X "
You simply can't have the tank cancel a monks FD. Luckily, at this point you are just one of the many people who are new to the forums who don't realize any major system adjustments would have had to have happened 4+ years ago. FD has been shown in streams. You are way to late to the party.
But also, your premise about "Feign death is often blamed as a tool that can be used for griefing and I have seen lots of people talk about removing the skill or reducing it to stop this." is also quite naive and shows your lack of experience with the ability.
There are a few people on this forum who have a limited gaming experience but are quite vocal. I wonder if you have fallen for their interpretation of how things were? Did you play EQ at the high end during its prime? It seems unlikely...
Vandraad said:I'm curious about your definition of 'often'
Have you played on a TLP EQ server when it is released? Anybody with the FD skill will train you for what ever reason they think is a good one. In original EQ FD training was almost non-existance. Currently... Not so much.
Chogar said:Vandraad said:I'm curious about your definition of 'often'
Have you played on a TLP EQ server when it is released? Anybody with the FD skill will train you for what ever reason they think is a good one. In original EQ FD training was almost non-existance. Currently... Not so much.
This is the difference and the issue that comes up repeatedly. Many people played "EQ" after it changed. After it changed so much that to call it the same game that people refer to when they are talking about EQ during its prime is a stretch...to say the least. It was not the same game even though the title was the same. If someone played EQ after it's prime they are completely unaware of the "EQ" that people refer to fondly when they refer to what EQ was. The general consensus is that PoP and later was the downfall. There is definitely a disconnect on these forums between people who experienced all EQ had to offer during its prime and those who came later.
philo said:It shouldn't have to be said, but since you asked, this is a joke right? : "Tank cancels monks FD for monster X "
You simply can't have the tank cancel a monks FD. Luckily, at this point you are just one of the many people who are new to the forums who don't realize any major system adjustments would have had to have happened 4+ years ago. FD has been shown in streams. You are way to late to the party.
But also, your premise about "Feign death is often blamed as a tool that can be used for griefing and I have seen lots of people talk about removing the skill or reducing it to stop this." is also quite naive and shows your lack of experience with the ability.
There are a few people on this forum who have a limited gaming experience but are quite vocal. I wonder if you have fallen for their interpretation of how things were? Did you play EQ at the high end during its prime? It seems unlikely...
Ok so your presumption is that it won't be an issue because it won't be used to grief. Humour me and assume I'm correct (as some other people here have also seem to believe) and now contemplate how you want to handle a world where players do in fact use it to train. If the answer is petition it, then you may be out of luck as it appears the developers have stated they plan to have a hands off approach allowing the community to regulate itself. That's fine and all but that doesn't address the anger and helplessness people will feel when they are being trained out of their camps.
In my example I used the "tank" as the person who is cancelling the FD, but that is just an example. Any player should be able to do this. Again, it's mutual annihilation as both parties will be agro and both will have to run or die. There is no winner, but that is the point. Griefing happens most when one party can abuse mechanics without suffering the penalty themselves.
If you think that it won't be needed as FD griefing won't be a thing, then surely you also don't object for there to be a mechanic that would do the opposite. I mean it evens the playing field and simple lets two players engage fairly.
Lastly this mechanic would already exist in a PvP server. I mean simple attack the monk and the ruse is up. So in a PvE server we are in effect doing the same thing, we are telling the mobs the monk is faking it, but both parties pay the price.
Again, you are years late on this making it not matter. There are multiple other flaws in your assessment but it is not even worth discussing because again, you are years late on this making it not matter.
Chogar said:I always liked the idea of making the FD check for each monster. This way if you pull 100 mobs to train you are more likely to fail (100 checks) then if you are pulling and got the whole room accidently.
This is a great place to start. Another thing that might be helpful is making it so the reuse timer for FD only starts after the monk gets up. The second part would prevent monks from being able to flop through content. If it's possible for a solo monk to navigate through the depths of a group dungeon then you're inviting trouble to your doorstep. The use of encounter locking could also alleviate training. Imagine if the FD ability were tweaked slightly (and that encounter locking is in place) ... after it's used, NPC's would enter a "curious state" (encounter is still locked at this point) where they continue to stare at the monk. This might only last 1-2 seconds before those same NPC's decide the monk is dead and then return to a "live state" (encounter is no longer locked) where they start pathing back to their destination. This would give other players in the area a brief opportunity to reposition. Having a chance to counterplay the train is really important.
Melamber said:Warioc said:I dont knew if FD is even planned or not but if it is im not worried about griefing. The only way to be safe against griefing is to instance everything and since i dont want that i dont think to much time should be put into comming up with work arounds for specific skills. If you can "remove" someones FD you indirectly create a option for "reverse" griefing by "waking up" the FD when he dont want to.
I like to point out though that "pulling tools" are extreamly important. Its a vital gameplay that somewhat dissapared after EQ, removing pulling tools is to dumb down content so there is no need of pulling tools. Thats bad
Sure but the price of the reverse griefing is you now have agro on the mob(s) the monk pulled. Also I generally find that griefers are solo players who run around enjoying the fun of disrupting groups. I don’t normally see a group of players grief a solo player. If the tank in question used this to reverse grief a legit monk you can bet that some of the people in the group would either call him out on it or leave.
Sure but i could, as a member of a copetetive guild ruin the pulling for another guild and try to take over the encounter.
To me it just seems like a waste of time to try to remove one way to grief just to create another one. And im very affraid of us ending up with removing the pulling options all together and instead design the game to where you simply pull a group of mobs, mez one and kill the rest over and over again. FD was a very interesting mechanics and i want to keep it
How about making Invisibility, work? If trained, all go invis, monsters dont see the invised players and only remember the FD monk. - but have a long tether so as soon as the monk wakes up, the monsters have the monk at the top of their aggro list. This would still allow pulling but change the mechanic a bit- since the closest one of 5 pulled will run back first with the others in tow, then if monk FD's again, the four take their time leaving while the closest takes the longest, being the first aggroed. Or maybe have that switched up so the farthest comes first and may grab some wanderers along the way.
The only two experiences I had with this kind of thing was when very young. First, we had a monk join us in warrens, he would Fd while pulling and wonder why we died. We sondered why he didnt get up and start helping us kil the two kobolds. We were young like 13 so everyone was learning their class still. Second, An Ogre decided to afk right in front of the entrance to Guk, I was only one in the zone and trying to hunt a little, as a mage its hard. So with no one being at the entrance I would pull and zone if I needed to But could not because of the ogre blocking the exit. I overpulled and went invis, that didnt work. If it did I think it would be a good mechanic?.
To those that say that training was rare in EQ and those that talk about it as a problem simply are unfamiliar with how EQ worked.
Um ...so what?
That was a different time where people had different backgrounds and MMOs were shiny and new.
If very few people used training to grief in 1999 but far more started to do so later in the history of EQ and on the newer servers what does that tell you about what is likely to happen in 2020 or 2021?
It tells me that you can't go back again and although training wasn't a serious issue *then* it would be a serious issue *now*.
