Tanix said:Aayden said:Tanix said:
You never played EQ, yet now you are doing analaysis on the concept of emergent game play and the toxic abuse of FD in the game? /facepalm
Stick to FFXI, you have no clue what you are talking about.
This is of aboslutely no substance to the discussion what-so-ever. I am not for de-railing threads and im not trying to do so but lets stay on topic and not attack eachother right?
There is no substance to a discussion when people make wild accsuations about what a game was, how a mechanic worked and then start to establish a solution for it.
Answer me this, what point does a discussion serve on straw mans?
He doesn't even understand how it worked in EQ, much less if it was even a problem, yet he has established his premise as such. What use substance does that bring to a discussion other than to derail it into arguments that have no basis?
You're smart. Articulate a response that reflects what you just told me. But dont just flat out be tell someone off. It's a discussion forum not a roast forum. And with this we are way off topic.
What are your thoughts on countering FD as a griefing tool?
Aayden said:Caine said:Reputation is what will ultimately prevent grieving.
Today we are talking about FD. Tomorrow it will be another mechanic that could be use be as a grieving tool.
One time I joined a group, who like to teleport you into the dungeon, then kick you from the group in a very dangerous place. The thought it was funny, and that’s ok, word got around and later they were always LFG, but could not find one.
But if try to eliminate all possibilities of grieving, you also end up nurfing every class down to boring classes that don’t matter. There are plenty of MMOs like that.
Let the community weed out the dumb asses. Keep classes unique. Allowing for classes to do something special. In the end that’s what I want.
Just like in the real world, there will be grievers and we will know who they are, and they are dealt with.
A RPGMMO should not be about safe spaces.
From my standpoint, i dont think we should eliminate griefing. But griefing should be something that doesnt go un-punished. Community policing will only do so much and there are certainly ways around that, simply through the facelessness of the internet.
Here is the thing, the unique issue of EQ was that its multiple mechanics and features of play pushing to group focus, made being a griefer extremely unproductive. If you were someone as such, you didn't get groups, so... all you could do was grief (to which your ability to do such was often limited as even good players have enormous trouble FD flopping through dangerous zones, contrary to popular belief FD was not a get out of jail free card) or you could go make a class that could solo, and then end up soloing only specific areas because even great soloers had a very difficult time getting into some areas because the game was designed for group.
The problem with these discussions is that a lot of the solutions are based on assumptions about play, not facts and the fact was that being a griefer in EQ became more common when mainstream mechanics became prevalent, where a soloer could surive and excell in content and being reliant on a group was not needed.
Keep the game group focused, where everyone MUST group to have any real lasting concept of play in the game, and reputation will become important as without others, people will not be able to survive.
At the extremes, GM's can handle the rest.
((I realize that my thoughts may not be popular))
I won't cut and paste to repeat them but I agree with the great bulk of what you said. Notwithstanding that we do not entirely agree on the value of training or the value of imposing consequences on those who train.
((i dont think we should eliminate griefing. ))
I think we should if we could. But we cannot without crippling the game. Yet any time we can make a specific form of griefing impossible or dangerous *without* harming other aspects of the game we should. It is a worthy goal although impossible of attainment.
((lets stay on topic and not attack eachother right?))
Right. Too many people seem to think that "you are an idiot" or "obviously you don't know as much as I do" can replace "I think you are wrong and here is why". Often because they have already given their arguments and are frustrated that others here do not find them peruasive. But once one has said all one has to say on a topic that is the time to move to another topic not try to get "the last word" by repetition or personal attack. The name of the person who is the last to post does not persuade VR - the contents of the posts do,
Personal attacks convince most of us that the *attacker* is wrong since if he or she had anything *useful* to say it would have been said.
Worse by far they convince VR that one doesn't respect the integrity of these forums as development forums for the trading of ideas not the determination of who can be nastier. Worse by far because persuading eachother is just a nice little bonus but persuading VR is the entire game.
Tanix said:There is no substance to a discussion when people make wild accsuations about what a game was, how a mechanic worked and then start to establish a solution for it.
Answer me this, what point does a discussion serve on straw mans?
He doesn't even understand how it worked in EQ, much less if it was even a problem, yet he has established his premise as such. What use substance does that bring to a discussion other than to derail it into arguments that have no basis?
FD was an ability that monks could use to "split" groups of NPC's. (It wasn't designed to do this, though.) It could also be used to drop trains on other players while the monk rests safely on the ground and under the effect of their FD spell. The ability could sometimes fail. There was nuance to how it was used to pull and how it was more/less effective against certain NPC's than others. It's not all that complicated of a topic and it wasn't me who started this thread. The basis was already established in the OP. I have plenty of experience using Feign Death in EQ2 and while I understand it's a different game than EQ1, the ability itself is not a foreign concept to me.
Tanix said:Aayden said:Caine said:Reputation is what will ultimately prevent grieving.
Today we are talking about FD. Tomorrow it will be another mechanic that could be use be as a grieving tool.
One time I joined a group, who like to teleport you into the dungeon, then kick you from the group in a very dangerous place. The thought it was funny, and that’s ok, word got around and later they were always LFG, but could not find one.
But if try to eliminate all possibilities of grieving, you also end up nurfing every class down to boring classes that don’t matter. There are plenty of MMOs like that.
Let the community weed out the dumb asses. Keep classes unique. Allowing for classes to do something special. In the end that’s what I want.
Just like in the real world, there will be grievers and we will know who they are, and they are dealt with.
A RPGMMO should not be about safe spaces.
From my standpoint, i dont think we should eliminate griefing. But griefing should be something that doesnt go un-punished. Community policing will only do so much and there are certainly ways around that, simply through the facelessness of the internet.
Here is the thing, the unique issue of EQ was that its multiple mechanics and features of play pushing to group focus, made being a griefer extremely unproductive. If you were someone as such, you didn't get groups, so... all you could do was grief (to which your ability to do such was often limited as even good players have enormous trouble FD flopping through dangerous zones, contrary to popular belief FD was not a get out of jail free card) or you could go make a class that could solo, and then end up soloing only specific areas because even great soloers had a very difficult time getting into some areas because the game was designed for group.
The problem with these discussions is that a lot of the solutions are based on assumptions about play, not facts and the fact was that being a griefer in EQ became more common when mainstream mechanics became prevalent, where a soloer could surive and excell in content and being reliant on a group was not needed.
Keep the game group focused, where everyone MUST group to have any real lasting concept of play in the game, and reputation will become important as without others, people will not be able to survive.
At the extremes, GM's can handle the rest.
I agree, a lot of solutions are coming from assumptions based on previous experiences in a DIFFERENT game. I like to look at my "resolutions" for these discussions as more of ideas to bounce off one another. No one except the devs are going to have the answer for what will be implemented or what they think is best for the community. But, we can certainly provide spirited discussion and give great ideas and food for thought.
Aayden said:Tanix said:Aayden said:Tanix said:
You never played EQ, yet now you are doing analaysis on the concept of emergent game play and the toxic abuse of FD in the game? /facepalm
Stick to FFXI, you have no clue what you are talking about.
This is of aboslutely no substance to the discussion what-so-ever. I am not for de-railing threads and im not trying to do so but lets stay on topic and not attack eachother right?
There is no substance to a discussion when people make wild accsuations about what a game was, how a mechanic worked and then start to establish a solution for it.
Answer me this, what point does a discussion serve on straw mans?
He doesn't even understand how it worked in EQ, much less if it was even a problem, yet he has established his premise as such. What use substance does that bring to a discussion other than to derail it into arguments that have no basis?
You're smart. Articulate a response that reflects what you just told me. But dont just flat out be tell someone off. It's a discussion forum not a roast forum. And with this we are way off topic.
What are your thoughts on countering FD as a griefing tool?
What I stated to oneADseven is an absolute fact, I make no apologies.
My thoughts? I think trying to fix bad behavior has a large habit of messing over the one of good behavior. You can't social engineer the game to keep people from being an arse. When you do, you get WoW, and then everyone acts like an arse because there are play pens everywhere and no consequences.
Watch what happens to them if Pantheon sticks to group only play and doesn't cater to mainstream design focuses. If they do that, griefers will have huge problems as nobody will group with them and... if they decide to be guilds of griefers, or excessive in their behavior, GMs will take care of them.
This is how it was in EQ and the best solution. All these mechanics will do is end up forcing a play style, something that is at odds with the very concept of this games development.
oneADseven said:Tanix said:There is no substance to a discussion when people make wild accsuations about what a game was, how a mechanic worked and then start to establish a solution for it.
Answer me this, what point does a discussion serve on straw mans?
He doesn't even understand how it worked in EQ, much less if it was even a problem, yet he has established his premise as such. What use substance does that bring to a discussion other than to derail it into arguments that have no basis?
FD was an ability that monks could use to "split" groups of NPC's. (It wasn't designed to do this, though.) It could also be used to drop trains on other players while the monk rests safely on the ground and under the effect of their FD spell. The ability could sometimes fail. There was nuance to how it was used to pull and how it was more/less effective against certain NPC's than others. It's not all that complicated of a topic and it wasn't me who started this thread. The basis was already established in the OP. I have plenty of experience using Feign Death in EQ2 and while I understand it's a different game than EQ1, the ability itself is not a foreign concept to me.
You described a text book surface understanding of EQ, something you can read quickly from comments of another and then restate.
EQ 2 is not and never was EQ. It did not operate like EQ at all, it was night and day different which is why it tanked on release with most EQ players hating it. So your EQ 2 experiences is like claiming since you know how to ride a bike, you have some experience to speak about racing cars.
I have discussed this with you, I know your understanding of FD based on your reponses to my previous discussions. You have no idea what you are talking about.
((Keep the game group focused, where everyone MUST group to have any real lasting concept of play in the game, and reputation will become important as without others, people will not be able to survive.))
Very valid point and true to a large extent.
It is dependant on servers having relatively small populations where name matters far more than on large servers. It is dependent on having either no way to change a name or having it very expensive or difficult. It is dependent on it being slow and difficult to replace a character that becomes hated by rerolling. I hope Pantheon has all of these things.
The one flaw in the argument that reputation will matter a great deal is the sad fact that the nastiest and most immature people can also form guilds and group with eachother. At the worst extreme they won't need anyone else.
So, yes, reputation will matter but in and of itself this is not sufficient to prevent the worst abuses. GMs can do much of this. Game mechanics can do much of this. GMs are a limited resource so any game mechanic that prevents a nasty abuse without hurting normal gameplay would generally be a plus.
Vandraad said:I'm curious about your definition of 'often' because for my 10 year EQ1 tenure, a FD class deliberately griefed me, my group or my raid only a few times..probably less than 10 times. Far more common was a non-FD class that was running away from stuff chasing them and would end up dying near enough to my location that the NPCs would then aggro onto my group/raid. If you ever went into Karnor Castle, you know of what I speak. People running away from mobs to the zoneline killed far more people than any monk/necro using FD. Same for zones like BlackBurrow, Crushbone, Unrest, SolA, SolB...need I go on?
Getting rid of FD or otherwise creating hokey mechanics is a solution to a problem that just doesn't exist in realistic quantities to need such changes.
Yep, very nicely said Vandraad.
Anyway, you know what happens when griefing happens (be it via fd or in many other ways)? We deal with it as adults. If that doesn't work, then gm handles it. Problem solved. FD was fine as is, and will be fine as is.
Tanix said:Aayden said:Tanix said:Aayden said:Tanix said:
You never played EQ, yet now you are doing analaysis on the concept of emergent game play and the toxic abuse of FD in the game? /facepalm
Stick to FFXI, you have no clue what you are talking about.
This is of aboslutely no substance to the discussion what-so-ever. I am not for de-railing threads and im not trying to do so but lets stay on topic and not attack eachother right?
There is no substance to a discussion when people make wild accsuations about what a game was, how a mechanic worked and then start to establish a solution for it.
Answer me this, what point does a discussion serve on straw mans?
He doesn't even understand how it worked in EQ, much less if it was even a problem, yet he has established his premise as such. What use substance does that bring to a discussion other than to derail it into arguments that have no basis?
You're smart. Articulate a response that reflects what you just told me. But dont just flat out be tell someone off. It's a discussion forum not a roast forum. And with this we are way off topic.
What are your thoughts on countering FD as a griefing tool?
What I stated to oneADseven is an absolute fact, I make no apologies.
My thoughts? I think trying to fix bad behavior has a large habit of messing over the one of good behavior. You can't social engineer the game to keep people from being an arse. When you do, you get WoW, and then everyone acts like an arse because there are play pens everywhere and no consequences.
Watch what happens to them if Pantheon sticks to group only play and doesn't cater to mainstream design focuses. If they do that, griefers will have huge problems as nobody will group with them and... if they decide to be guilds of griefers, or excessive in their behavior, GMs will take care of them.
This is how it was in EQ and the best solution. All these mechanics will do is end up forcing a play style, something that is at odds with the very concept of this games development.
I'm not asking you to apologize. I just dont want a discussion of f yous to start (not saying thats what you were doing, im just saying). I think that you and i are viewing this a little different though. You mention social engineering and how that creates the WoW environment when devs over police players with restrictions on what they can and cannot do. I %100 agree with you. However, what i am talking about isnt necessarily a social engineering factor. It's an idea to impose a penalty on those who abuse a mechanic to a gross manner.
I am not saying fix FD griefing or remove trains or remove aspects of the game so we cant grief. But if the potential for griefing is there then so should penalties for it. In my opinion, i dont think community policing is enough. Yes, eventually that player will be a known griefer should they FD grief over and over and over. But i dont believe people that are going to FD grief in the moment are thinking long term reprecussions. Short-term immediate reprecussions would be at the forefront for that player. That is because they would be taking on some sort of penalty, for what that is we can only speculate and discuss.
Lets say you are FD griefing at level 45, youre so close to level cap (given that its 50), but the deterrent is greater than the reward; do you really want to take an XP hit? AND community rep hit? Most reasonable people would swallow their pride (most not all) and move on.
Ultimately, i dont think there is a "FIX" for something like this in an open-world game like this. There are somethings we are just going to have to deal with. What is the right penalty, if any, i dont know. thats why im here!
Tanix said:You described a text book surface understanding of EQ, something you can read quickly from comments of another and then restate.
EQ 2 is not and never was EQ. It did not operate like EQ at all, it was night and day different which is why it tanked on release with most EQ players hating it. So your EQ 2 experiences is like claiming since you know how to ride a bike, you have some experience to speak about racing cars.
I have discussed this with you, I know your understanding of FD based on your reponses to my previous discussions. You have no idea what you are talking about.
Playing EQ isn't a prerequisite for playing Pantheon or posting on it's development forums. You tend to believe that the way EQ did things is automatically assumed as the "default position" for Pantheon. That mindset has never been endorsed by VR. In fact, they have gone out of their way to state that they aren't emulating EQ and that they are looking to put a fresh perspective on some of the conventional mechanics that may have been viewed as a pain point in previous MMO's. I think it's pretty obnoxious and arrogant that you somehow feel qualified to tell me what I do or do not understand. Please let me share a Chinese Proverb with you again for good measure: "If you want to find out about the road ahead, then ask about it from those coming back." I have plenty of friends who played EQ and I have had long in-depth discussions with them surrounding the FD mechanic. You may not like my opinion but it sure isn't invalidated just because you think it should be. Again, operating off of the premise that Pantheon does not use EQ as a rigid foundation for how mechanics are definitely going to work in Pantheon, there is plenty of room for open-minded dialogue.
oneADseven said:FFXI handled it a bit differently than EQ2/VG.
Yikes! The more I hear about FFXI the worse and worse it sounds. When griefing happens we deal with it like adults do. If that doesn't work, gm handles it. #communitymatters. The less FFXI influence, the better imo. Brad M & Visionary Realms devs made and played Old EQ and VG. They have nothing to do with FFXI - so regarding FD it should be of no surprise that we use it here.
Syrif said:Yikes! The more I hear about FFXI the worse and worse it sounds. When griefing happens we deal with it like adults do. If that doesn't work, gm handles it. #communitymatters. The less FFXI influence, the better imo. Brad M & Visionary Realms devs made and played Old EQ and VG. They have nothing to do with FFXI - so regarding FD it should be of no surprise that we use it here.
Training behavior didn't work any differently in FFXI. If someone intentionally trained others, the community would deal with them. If that wasn't enough, it would be escalated to a GM. In the context of this conversation, FFXI was actually more of a middleground between EQ and VG. Maybe you have preconceived notions about the game and write it off before considering anything about it? As mentioned previously ... in Vanguard, if NPC's had their aggro tables reset, they would instantly return to their spawn point. This is also how it worked in EQ2. Would you rather see that?
Another day, another drop in forum quality by overly aggressive opinions and hostile EQ elitism. It's fine to have opinions on things but stick to expressing your own views instead of attacking those of others, none of the opinions expressed here are a threat to Pantheon's direction/development so stop being so passionately defensive of your ideal game ideas.
oneADseven said:Tanix said:You described a text book surface understanding of EQ, something you can read quickly from comments of another and then restate.
EQ 2 is not and never was EQ. It did not operate like EQ at all, it was night and day different which is why it tanked on release with most EQ players hating it. So your EQ 2 experiences is like claiming since you know how to ride a bike, you have some experience to speak about racing cars.
I have discussed this with you, I know your understanding of FD based on your reponses to my previous discussions. You have no idea what you are talking about.
Playing EQ isn't a prerequisite for playing Pantheon or posting on it's development forums.
I don't think Tanix said playing EQ is a prerequisite to be able to play Pantheon or post on its forums. Oneadseven: that's a bit silly. As was mentioned, the people who are making this game also made and played EQ and VG, so a mechanism like FD returning here really shouldn't mind-boggle anyone at this point imo.
stellarmind said:guess i'm the only one that is down with killing the griefer huh? =(
PvP solutions won't work for PvE players. But yeah on red servers obviously you have ways of dealing with pests...namely just killing and camping them til they log off. But for PvE servers that solution is not available...which enables some nasty tricks. Old school EQ the "griefers" ended up without a guild and blacklisted on the major dungeons and if they did it too much a GM suspended/banned them. Feign death really was too powerful back in the day, and I would put more limitations on it having it in Pantheon. There is zero reason to keep it as powerful as it was.
Syrif said:I don't think Tanix said playing EQ is a prerequisite to be able to play Pantheon or post on its forums.
Are you reading selectively? Let's recap a few comments where that was most certainly suggested.
Tanix said:You never played EQ, yet now you are doing analaysis on the concept of emergent game play and the toxic abuse of FD in the game? /facepalm
Stick to FFXI, you have no clue what you are talking about.
Tanix said:There is no substance to a discussion when people make wild accsuations about what a game was, how a mechanic worked and then start to establish a solution for it.
Answer me this, what point does a discussion serve on straw mans?
He doesn't even understand how it worked in EQ, much less if it was even a problem, yet he has established his premise as such. What use substance does that bring to a discussion other than to derail it into arguments that have no basis?
Tanix said:What I stated to oneADseven is an absolute fact, I make no apologies.
This trend has persisted across several threads. It's almost as if I should just stop posting on the forum altogether to prevent him from constantly disparaging what I have to say and derailing any thread I participate on. It's not like that hasn't already happened with plenty of other folks on this forum who were put in a similar position as I. I think I'll continue chugging along. Even if Tanix meant "Stick to talking about FFXI" -- I have tried doing that as well but he is constantly denigrating anything and everything about FFXI.
oneADseven said:Maybe you have preconceived notions about the game and write it off before considering anything about it?
No offense meant, but what I've tried/read about FFXI and WoW is just not to to my liking; never has been. Just no interest. I'll admit that I am here because Brad and VR devs made and played the games that I did like (Old EQ and VG). They were just great games and Pantheon is looking great too :)
Ziegfried said:stellarmind said:guess i'm the only one that is down with killing the griefer huh? =(
PvP solutions won't work for PvE players. But yeah on red servers obviously you have ways of dealing with pests...namely just killing and camping them til they log off. But for PvE servers that solution is not available...which enables some nasty tricks. Old school EQ the "griefers" ended up without a guild and blacklisted on the major dungeons and if they did it too much a GM suspended/banned them. Feign death really was too powerful back in the day, and I would put more limitations on it having it in Pantheon. There is zero reason to keep it as powerful as it was.
o righhhhht O.o forgot where i was. i just think the pve solutions are too complicated for a simple problem. all you'd have to do is make it where mobs break leash after a certain time or distance. besides VR have stated that the mobs will be dynamic and have types of dispositions.