Riahuf22 said: The point is even in a group centric game, there's going to be solable content, granted there will be places that will prolly never be soloed, cept by people who have completely out leveled it to the point the npc just isn't threatening anymore. I get what your saying and I feel the same way it needs to be Guage to where basically all content needs to be group orientated so the world going forward always feels dangerous and adventurous, and not a snooze fest I get it I really do believe me, but some places some people are going to find a way to solo something, and for as well it's legit I'm cool with it. Which as you said you are too and that's the way it needs to be
As I said, that was never the point. I am not saying they should run around nerfing people if someone figures out how to solo things. I don't care if people solo, I just don't want content DESIGNED to be solo'd and I was EXTREMELY clear on what I meant, maybe go back and read my discussion on it?
Darck said:Tanix.. you have far too much patience. I have to say this thread hurt my head to read the responses, and I began to despair for the player base.
It is insane, I really don't get it. Many of these conflicts in discussion can be easily solved by simply reading the discussion of the person to be responded to before responding. /facepalm
Keno Monster said:Content is content. If a level 4 necro can kill a level 6 skeleton, and it takes 3 level 4 monks to kill the same level 6 skeleton, the skeleton is the skeleton. It isn't solo content, nor is it group content. It is content.
It isn't that simple. Content has to be intially designed for a certain level of difficulty and focus. They don't just generate mobs with random statistics, there is a thought to the intended balance of the mob. That is, if they want the content to be group based, they have to make sure the HP of the mob is sufficient to provide proper combat length otherwise the group would essentially mow mobs down without any real effort. On the other side, specifically designing solo content requires them to consider the solo characters basic ability (not the player) to make sure it is balanced to a level where generally an individual character can defeat it. This is the same with raid content.
So, yes... there is solo content, group content designed specifically to that mind.
I think alot of this thread is just a matter of perspective
Some are thinking solo content as in designed for solo, others are thinking more like solo like EQ was where you could solo mobs several levels lower than you.. It wasn't the most effective way to gain xp, but it was doable. Then you also had certain classes that were more proficient at it.
Pretty sure Pantheon is going the EQ route, where the content is not being designed with solo content in mind, but that you will be able to solo as you advance, IE lvl 20 killing lvl 16 mobs.
Fulton said:
I think alot of this thread is just a matter of perspective
Some are thinking solo content as in designed for solo, others are thinking more like solo like EQ was where you could solo mobs several levels lower than you.. It wasn't the most effective way to gain xp, but it was doable. Then you also had certain classes that were more proficient at it.
Pretty sure Pantheon is going the EQ route, where the content is not being designed with solo content in mind, but that you will be able to solo as you advance, IE lvl 20 killing lvl 16 mobs.
That was originally the impression I got from the devs comments on the subject. Some people are expecting actual content designed for soloing though (as is evident by some of the discussions) and I keep seeing people refer to the games content distribution by comments like 20% solo, 60% group 20% raid or various other distibutions, as if the "solo" content was actually designed as such. That is where it concerns me.
Tanix said:Riahuf22 said: The point is even in a group centric game, there's going to be solable content, granted there will be places that will prolly never be soloed, cept by people who have completely out leveled it to the point the npc just isn't threatening anymore. I get what your saying and I feel the same way it needs to be Guage to where basically all content needs to be group orientated so the world going forward always feels dangerous and adventurous, and not a snooze fest I get it I really do believe me, but some places some people are going to find a way to solo something, and for as well it's legit I'm cool with it. Which as you said you are too and that's the way it needs to beAs I said, that was never the point. I am not saying they should run around nerfing people if someone figures out how to solo things. I don't care if people solo, I just don't want content DESIGNED to be solo'd and I was EXTREMELY clear on what I meant, maybe go back and read my discussion on it?
Clearly I did and was agreeing with most of the things you said. But nerf in classes shouldn't really be a thing unless unvoidable or used in a way unintended, if anything buff the NPCS so it far less likely to continue.
Riahuf22 said:Tanix said:Riahuf22 said: The point is even in a group centric game, there's going to be solable content, granted there will be places that will prolly never be soloed, cept by people who have completely out leveled it to the point the npc just isn't threatening anymore. I get what your saying and I feel the same way it needs to be Guage to where basically all content needs to be group orientated so the world going forward always feels dangerous and adventurous, and not a snooze fest I get it I really do believe me, but some places some people are going to find a way to solo something, and for as well it's legit I'm cool with it. Which as you said you are too and that's the way it needs to beAs I said, that was never the point. I am not saying they should run around nerfing people if someone figures out how to solo things. I don't care if people solo, I just don't want content DESIGNED to be solo'd and I was EXTREMELY clear on what I meant, maybe go back and read my discussion on it?
Clearly I did and was agreeing with most of the things you said. But nerf in classes shouldn't really be a thing unless unvoidable or used in a way unintended, if anything buff the NPCS so it far less likely to continue.
Ok, well, then I misunderstood.
That I can agree on. I always think that solutions to issues in play should be adjusted at the content level, never at the player character level. Buffing/nerfing is a cancer in games and leads to enormous amount of envy play. I understand in some rare situaitons, it is unavoidable, but in most cases, the content should be adjusted.
One thing I completely despise is "class balance" arguments. Classes should be balanced to the content, never to each other as the latter ALWAYS ends up on a path to hemogenization.
Tanix said:Fulton said:
I think alot of this thread is just a matter of perspective
Some are thinking solo content as in designed for solo, others are thinking more like solo like EQ was where you could solo mobs several levels lower than you.. It wasn't the most effective way to gain xp, but it was doable. Then you also had certain classes that were more proficient at it.
Pretty sure Pantheon is going the EQ route, where the content is not being designed with solo content in mind, but that you will be able to solo as you advance, IE lvl 20 killing lvl 16 mobs.
That was originally the impression I got from the devs comments on the subject. Some people are expecting actual content designed for soloing though (as is evident by some of the discussions) and I keep seeing people refer to the games content distribution by comments like 20% solo, 60% group 20% raid or various other distibutions, as if the "solo" content was actually designed as such. That is where it concerns me.
And that would be correct- actually a few things in there are correct. What is very incorrect is the assumption that the game is 100% about killing mobs. No, there is exploring, mapping, fishing, gathering, maybe duelling, maybe pvp activities, lore, perception (questing), and more that I am not hinking of. So yes 20% solo in that context is entirely accurate. Now for those that Think a game doesn't NEED any of that stuff- that is a seperate thread and not for this thread. As far as mobs being designed one way or the other- could care less honestly, will leave that for others to verbally spar over.
Tanix said:That was originally the impression I got from the devs comments on the subject. Some people are expecting actual content designed for soloing though (as is evident by some of the discussions) and I keep seeing people refer to the games content distribution by comments like 20% solo, 60% group 20% raid or various other distibutions, as if the "solo" content was actually designed as such. That is where it concerns me.
That 20/60/20 impression comes from this stream. It's also mentioned , generally, in section 9.1 of the FAQ, today: " Yes, there will be Raid content in Pantheon. That said, the majority of content is being designed for grouping, with the remainder for soloing or raiding. "
Similarly, in section 9.2 of the FAQ today: " Second, most content in Pantheon will be designed around grouping, with smaller amounts designed for soloing and raiding. Pantheon is not primarily a raiding game, though we know many in our community enjoy raiding. Same with soloing -- it is not Pantheon's focus, but some people like to solo occasionally. "
X
VR team would be pretty stupid to design solo content and balance it somehow. I don't think they will pull it off. Their team doesn't have any of the hardcore number crunchers or people who make a living at finding the fastest way to level. They will dig themselves a hole and kill off a lot of their core audience. First impressions are everything in an MMO. Just the sight of solo designed content will discourage a lot of the audience they are going for. But if they are intent on designing solo content then we will see. Maybe their audience aren't EQ/VG, but somewhere in the middle of EQ and Classic WoW.
Dashed said:Tanix said:Fulton said:
I think alot of this thread is just a matter of perspective
Some are thinking solo content as in designed for solo, others are thinking more like solo like EQ was where you could solo mobs several levels lower than you.. It wasn't the most effective way to gain xp, but it was doable. Then you also had certain classes that were more proficient at it.
Pretty sure Pantheon is going the EQ route, where the content is not being designed with solo content in mind, but that you will be able to solo as you advance, IE lvl 20 killing lvl 16 mobs.
That was originally the impression I got from the devs comments on the subject. Some people are expecting actual content designed for soloing though (as is evident by some of the discussions) and I keep seeing people refer to the games content distribution by comments like 20% solo, 60% group 20% raid or various other distibutions, as if the "solo" content was actually designed as such. That is where it concerns me.
And that would be correct- actually a few things in there are correct. What is very incorrect is the assumption that the game is 100% about killing mobs. No, there is exploring, mapping, fishing, gathering, maybe duelling, maybe pvp activities, lore, perception (questing), and more that I am not hinking of. So yes 20% solo in that context is entirely accurate. Now for those that Think a game doesn't NEED any of that stuff- that is a seperate thread and not for this thread. As far as mobs being designed one way or the other- could care less honestly, will leave that for others to verbally spar over.
Context is everything, if the point was time spent in terms of ones ability to do something as in "anything", then ok, but I was under the impression when such discussions were being made it was under the premise of combat, not activities like sitting around RPing in a tavern or counting widgets.
vjek said:Tanix said:That was originally the impression I got from the devs comments on the subject. Some people are expecting actual content designed for soloing though (as is evident by some of the discussions) and I keep seeing people refer to the games content distribution by comments like 20% solo, 60% group 20% raid or various other distibutions, as if the "solo" content was actually designed as such. That is where it concerns me.
That 20/60/20 impression comes from this stream. It's also mentioned , generally, in section 9.1 of the FAQ, today: " Yes, there will be Raid content in Pantheon. That said, the majority of content is being designed for grouping, with the remainder for soloing or raiding. "
Similarly, in section 9.2 of the FAQ today: " Second, most content in Pantheon will be designed around grouping, with smaller amounts designed for soloing and raiding. Pantheon is not primarily a raiding game, though we know many in our community enjoy raiding. Same with soloing -- it is not Pantheon's focus, but some people like to solo occasionally. "X
ok, so they ARE designing solo content, as in content that EVERY class will be able to do, which means it will be face roll combat. Add this to yet another bullet point of disappontment on this game, /shrug
Watemper said:VR team would be pretty stupid to design solo content and balance it somehow. I don't think they will pull it off. Their team doesn't have any of the hardcore number crunchers or people who make a living at finding the fastest way to level. They will dig themselves a hole and kill off a lot of their core audience. First impressions are everything in an MMO. Just the sight of solo designed content will discourage a lot of the audience they are going for. But if they are intent on designing solo content then we will see. Maybe their audience aren't EQ/VG, but somewhere in the middle of EQ and Classic WoW.
Which is what worries me. Compromise with mainstream ALWAYS is a benefit to mainstream and NEVER of that who wish the older designs. This becomes a slippery slope of how much of the game will be compromised to the point of it being worth playing or not.
As I said, I have been here, done this before. Pantheon walking the line of trying to retain older concepts of game design in contrast with newer more moden approaches being demanded is like a broke record caught on a single track.
Tanix said:Watemper said:Which is what worries me. Compromise with mainstream ALWAYS is a benefit to mainstream and NEVER of that who wish the older designs. This becomes a slippery slope of how much of the game will be compromised to the point of it being worth playing or not.
As I said, I have been here, done this before. Pantheon walking the line of trying to retain older concepts of game design in contrast with newer more moden approaches being demanded is like a broke record caught on a single track.
Yeah they don't have the numbers, or the right people behind this to make it work, even if it is possible. If they make solo viable somehow to group leveling, then it will outclass the time it takes to get a group together and do dungeoning. I have a sneaking suspiscion that they will measure it by a one to one metric of group leveling for an hour and solo lvling for an hour without taking into account the time it takes to get a group, find a camp spot that is open, and get to that camp spot and set up.
It's going to get very messy and if they somehow think that it's going to be easy, be prepared for a ton of bots and plat farmers and aoe kite classes outleveling groups.
I Hope that soloing is limited to light blue/green con mobs with less xp/loot rewarded for not grouping so that it doesnt out weigh forming a group, setting up camp etc etc, otherwise as the person above said we will get problems with tons of bots and plat farmers. if its easy to solo and the xp/loot rewards are close to those of groups why would most people bother grouping? people will naturally gravitate to the path of least resistance for fear of loosing out.
As others have also mentioned, I enjoy both, but it depends on how much time I have. So many MMOs (even modern day EQ) have put an emphasis on group play to the point that you have to have significant amounts of uninterrupted time, and that's just difficult for me. I can't commit the same amount of time I could when I was younger. Full time job, kids, other activities, you get the drill.
I'm hoping Pantheon gives me enough solo ability that I can play and accomplish something when I'm short on time, and I hope it also gives us group dynamics where interruptions (kids need to be tucked in, wife needs help with a chore, quick work call, etc) don't kill the group or their dependency on my character. I have some awesome memories of playing in groups when I was younger, but I don't have the time to LFG for 30 minutes, finding a lackluster group that doesn't provide anything for my character, spend 45 minutes running to the camp, killing stuff for 15 minutes, and then having to log off anyway. If the tools and functionality for quick group play with decent downtime or options to take a break for family life are in place, then give me the group content!
GioCefalu said:As others have also mentioned, I enjoy both, but it depends on how much time I have. So many MMOs (even modern day EQ) have put an emphasis on group play to the point that you have to have significant amounts of uninterrupted time, and that's just difficult for me. I can't commit the same amount of time I could when I was younger. Full time job, kids, other activities, you get the drill.
I'm hoping Pantheon gives me enough solo ability that I can play and accomplish something when I'm short on time, and I hope it also gives us group dynamics where interruptions (kids need to be tucked in, wife needs help with a chore, quick work call, etc) don't kill the group or their dependency on my character. I have some awesome memories of playing in groups when I was younger, but I don't have the time to LFG for 30 minutes, finding a lackluster group that doesn't provide anything for my character, spend 45 minutes running to the camp, killing stuff for 15 minutes, and then having to log off anyway. If the tools and functionality for quick group play with decent downtime or options to take a break for family life are in place, then give me the group content!
I don't uncerstand your argument. You do realize that when EQ was released, many of us were adults, with families, full time jobs and responsiblities? I don't think that argument is a valid one to use. Either you make time for play, or you don't. If a game does not fit your time commitment, then you play another game. Plenty of other modern MMOs are specifically designed to cater to such a play requirement.
Gio, please see the following excerpts from an AMA with Brad back in 2016:
Will Pantheon require me to play for hours and hours or all night and all day to advance my character?
No. While the world of Terminus will consist of vast landscapes and epic dungeons, there is no reason to require players to play long, contiguous gaming sessions. Players will be able to play a couple of hours, logout, and return later to continue their journey. There will also be mechanics and features to both help people get together and group and also to make lasting friendships. To further facilitate this there will also be ways for players to keep their group together even if some members of the group can play longer than others or at different times.
I can typically only play 2-4 hours per day. With no quick travel or automated LFG features, will I be spending all my time just LFG and traveling?
First, 2-4 hours is great -- you should in most cases be able to complete something in that time period that you can feel good about, where you get a real sense of accomplishment. As for travel and lfg, please allow me to clarify. First, there will, in addition to mounts, be ways to travel quickly over long distances. These will involve abilities limited to some of the classes.
More detail at this time would be premature other than to say that you'll likely have to had explored on foot an area before another class can teleport you to it. LFG features... we will have LFG features galore. See the other FAQs to read about how important we consider it is for us to find groups, make real friends, and to keep our players together.
I would also suggest reading this blog entry: https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/blogs/151/183/matchmaking-systems-what-we-re-up-to-and-why-part-1
oneADseven, he is saying even 2-4 hours is far too much time to play. Look at his example, he is saying 2 hours of play requirement is too long, that it should be shorter. My guess based on his example, he thinks 30 mins of play is a good amount of time to get something done, which is the basic average of most MMOs today. Note also the complaints about features he does not want such as long travel times, having to form groups (ie not having a dungeon finder), etc...
He is basically saying he is fine with group content if it is like WoW. He is looking for a modern MSO, not MMO.
/shrug
Well to be fair he said that characters will have travel abilities, like druid/wizard ports, but nothing like WoW imo. For the dungeon finder/lfg finder type of stuff, I know the WoW classic communtiy hated it as it killed off a lot of community aspects that people wanted, so we will see.
I didn't get that impression at all. The main takeaway I observed was this:
"If the tools and functionality for quick group play with decent downtime or options to take a break for family life are in place, then give me the group content!"
All he is saying is that ... if he has a couple hours to play, he wants to be productive in that time. It's completely reasonable. He doesn't want to spend 85% of his time looking for and then meeting up with a group. Again, I think that is reasonable. At the end of the day, though, I think players need to accept that when a game is built mostly around player interdependence and group-centric play ... there are going to be times where it's the responsibility of the player to properly manage their time. If you only have an hour to play and it takes 30 minutes just to get to a group, you should probably consider doing something other than grouping. As long as Pantheon has a healthy mix of horizontal progression, and opportunities to accomplish something while solo, everything will be fine. We just need to remember that the game is designed around a grouping mindset so whatever solo content that ends up being available probably isn't going to offer the same kind of progression potential as what could be had in a group.
I think GioCefalu is here for a reason. I think he really enjoys group-centric play but also understands that his current situation isn't really aligned with how things "used to work." He just wants to see some innovation that will help him make the most out of his time. He doesn't want WoW. He wants to carve his niche in the world of Terminus and hopes that the game is being developed in such a way where he'll have a platform to be able to do that. If you look at the things he is asking for ... and then compare that to the AMA excerpts I linked, and the language Brad used in his blog article ... it's obvious that his concerns have been heard by VR and that they are designing the game with players like him in mind. We shouldn't be trying to ship him off to WoW or some other modern MMO. He specifically phrased his response around the caveat of "It depends on how much time I have." He prefers group content if the right tools are in place to help facilitate it. If not, he'll settle with some sort of solo play. There are plenty of folks who share that exact sentiment.
Will see how dedicated VR is to capturing the target audience they are going for.
1.1 Who is the targeted player (demographic) base for this game, and why?
While some MMOs have been designed with the goal and desire to appeal to all gamers, all of the time, we at Visionary Realms believe the future of MMOs is all about making more focused games, targeting specific gamers with distinct preferences. Pantheon is first and foremost a deeply social game. Players who desire cooperative play, working together as a team, and the shared experiences that result from playing with other real people to overcome challenges will enjoy Pantheon. Players who want an MMO to be their home and to interact with communities and player-driven economies will find what they are looking for in Pantheon. Why? We feel that, at least recently, the MMO players who enjoy these elements have been orphaned. In fact, the Visionary Realms team feels they are part of this orphaned group. And it doesn’t take a lot of research to find countless articles, blogs, and posts full of players looking for the kind of experience we aim to offer in Pantheon.
Although it seems other FAQ answers are shifting away from their core principle...if I play it for a month and get bored I will just move on. Simple as that.
Watemper said:Well to be fair he said that characters will have travel abilities, like druid/wizard ports, but nothing like WoW imo. For the dungeon finder/lfg finder type of stuff, I know the WoW classic communtiy hated it as it killed off a lot of community aspects that people wanted, so we will see.
Well, the thing is that in most cases, even with travel abilities, it will take time if the game is worth its salt. Even with a wizard or druid port, it still took time to get places. If travel is so quick where a port, even by a wizard or druid can get you to you to most destinations within 5 mins or so, the game will be too small (ie feel like PoP). I would like to see 15-20+ mins travel time if you are taking a port and are going somewhere near the portal. Everything else should take much more time on foot. This is why I dislike the caravan idea Brad has, I think it is a bit of a sell out to try and cater to mainstream players.
A lot of subtle elements I think people overlook or don't realize with thinghs like travel. For instance, because it took so much time to travel (even with ports), players didn't hop all around the world constantly. They decided on where they would meet and group at to which a day or so of travel time was put aside for that grouping. Because of this, the game had many areas in the outskirts where few people were grouping because most concentrated on the hot spots. This gave exploration and the willingness to plan a grouping event more weight over those who made up plans on the fly.
If the world is too easily traveled, this subtle element of play is lost. Travel must take a lot of time and people should have to plan accordingly weighting the pros and cons of where they go in my opinion.