There should be a collaboration with John Carpenter. Big Trouble in Little Terminus. Lots of similarities there. Cult-like followings, infinite development timelines, more questions than answers, smoke and mirrors, multiple pivots, etc. Some people thought they were getting a modern remake with Kurt Russell but found out they're getting a sequel with the Rock instead.
Speaking of Kurt Russell ... if that doesn't work out, perhaps try to work out some sort of royalty deal and see if he'd be willing to complete the trilogy. Escape from New York > Escape from LA > Escape from Terminus. Like most of us, he's getting up there in the age department so should probably make a move soon. That, or use AI to make it seem like the real Kurt Russell for stunts and theatrics.
oneADseven said:There should be a collaboration with John Carpenter. Big Trouble in Little Terminus. Lots of similarities there. Cult-like followings, infinite development timelines, more questions than answers, smoke and mirrors, multiple pivots, etc. Some people thought they were getting a modern remake with Kurt Russell but found out they're getting a sequel with the Rock instead.
Speaking of Kurt Russell ... if that doesn't work out, perhaps try to work out some sort of royalty deal and see if he'd be willing to complete the trilogy. Escape from New York > Escape from LA > Escape from Terminus. Like most of us, he's getting up there in the age department so should probably make a move soon. That, or use AI to make it seem like the real Kurt Russell for stunts and theatrics.
THIS!
There could be a timed exclusive where the first boss has a Kurt Russell voice acted Jack Burton join your party for the server first takedown. If you are a platinum donator you can open up an additional side quest where you find Jack's truck finally!
dorotea said: Adrenicus - of course a large investment would be wonderful. An established producer coming on-board would be wonderful. Failing that, and it has not happened over long years of effort, what then? If peddling an extraction game is the remaining hope - they need to try it.
I would argue if they can't get investment from an established producer/publisher then there may not be much hope anyway. There are plenty of companies whom would gamble on Pantheon's vision if they believed it could be completed. Taking more money from the public to still fail is even worse than just putting their hands up and saying its over in my opinion.
Prevenge said: But constantly shitting on the game DEFINITELY won't help VR. The negative feedback was constant, it was deliberate and it was plentiful. They've heard it, they've recorded it, they've reflected on it. Continuing is just beating a dead horse. Who says 1 community member couldn't come up with an idea that was ACTUALLY GOOD and VR would be like "holy crap, he/she is right, that's an amazing idea"
Vandraad said:
Prevenge said: But constantly shitting on the game DEFINITELY won't help VR. The negative feedback was constant, it was deliberate and it was plentiful. They've heard it, they've recorded it, they've reflected on it. Continuing is just beating a dead horse. Who says 1 community member couldn't come up with an idea that was ACTUALLY GOOD and VR would be like "holy crap, he/she is right, that's an amazing idea"
If you want examples of where people have come up with good ideas that VR rejected, pony up enough money to become VIP then go through the last 7-ish years of PA posts.
EDIT: Oh, and every developer of every game ever made is passionate about their project, but passion doesn't pay the damn bills.
Love isn't enough.
Ideas are fruitless. The outline was given at the start of the project. Nobody had the idea to deviate, and yet here we are. That's the problem that needs addressing. Companies cannot pivot with random people on a msg board having ideas. You have to literally actually accept an idea and run with it until the end.
Pantheon hasn't failed yet? Now that depends on how you define failure. 10 years of work being erased to start over nearly from scratch at day 1 again, that is a failure to deliver in a timely fashion literally anything that can be brought to market. It doesn't avoid being a failure because someone is stubborn enough to say "they're working on it". 30 years from now you could make the same statement, the son of Joppa is going to bring his father's vision to reality! Just you wait! You should just try and help!
With any artistic endeavor you need the artist to have a clear vision, changing directions in what seems like a 180 degrees is less vision and more desperation or confusion. THAT is where the transparency needs to be. Joppa or someone needs to convey exactly what it is they're doing and outline exactly how this works, just like the original project did. They don't need feedback until they have a product that needs to be polished or fine tuned. Things they can't foresee like server load or time investment for people that have things going on other than a video game. That's feedback for balancing, not core concept brainstorming.
The scope should be known and be progressing, not being hashed out. If you have a proper scope you don't have need or time for distractions from every tom dick and harry who says "what about this?" or "can we throw this in the mix?". No matter how cathartic that may make you feel.
Atarius said:
Love isn't enough.
Ideas are fruitless. The outline was given at the start of the project. Nobody had the idea to deviate, and yet here we are. That's the problem that needs addressing. Companies cannot pivot with random people on a msg board having ideas. You have to literally actually accept an idea and run with it until the end.
Pantheon hasn't failed yet? Now that depends on how you define failure. 10 years of work being erased to start over nearly from scratch at day 1 again, that is a failure to deliver in a timely fashion literally anything that can be brought to market. It doesn't avoid being a failure because someone is stubborn enough to say "they're working on it". 30 years from now you could make the same statement, the son of Joppa is going to bring his father's vision to reality! Just you wait! You should just try and help!
With any artistic endeavor you need the artist to have a clear vision, changing directions in what seems like a 180 degrees is less vision and more desperation or confusion. THAT is where the transparency needs to be. Joppa or someone needs to convey exactly what it is they're doing and outline exactly how this works, just like the original project did. They don't need feedback until they have a product that needs to be polished or fine tuned. Things they can't foresee like server load or time investment for people that have things going on other than a video game. That's feedback for balancing, not core concept brainstorming.
The scope should be known and be progressing, not being hashed out. If you have a proper scope you don't have need or time for distractions from every tom dick and harry who says "what about this?" or "can we throw this in the mix?". No matter how cathartic that may make you feel.
Prevenge said:Are you saying every single idea ever proposed by a PA tester has been ignored? I've heard in multiple videos over the years VR talking about things they've done, or changes they've made, directly in response to PA feedback. I'm not part of the PA forums, so I don't know what you're referring to specifically, but I'd find it hard to believe that VR has never looked at the suggestions and went "Oh that's a good idea" and then proceeded to use it. If you're insinuating that every single good idea ever, was ignored, I simply don't believe that. I don't agree with your 2nd part at all. Lots of games out there are created by companies like NCSoft where passion hasn't existed in many years. You can't honestly tell me that the team at VR doesn't love this game, more than the people over at NCSoft who pump out as many games as possible, hoping for a few to stick.
I didn't say every idea presented by PA testers was ignored, but that there are plenty of examples which have been ignored. You just interpreted 'many' as 'all'.
And, yes, I do say that every developer has passion for their project. And I didn't say VR doesn't have passion for it. I'm saying that passion, by itself, doesn't pay the fekking bills. You really are garbage at reading comprehension, jumping to conclusions that were never actually made. Carry on White Knight!
Vandraad said:
Prevenge said:Are you saying every single idea ever proposed by a PA tester has been ignored? I've heard in multiple videos over the years VR talking about things they've done, or changes they've made, directly in response to PA feedback. I'm not part of the PA forums, so I don't know what you're referring to specifically, but I'd find it hard to believe that VR has never looked at the suggestions and went "Oh that's a good idea" and then proceeded to use it. If you're insinuating that every single good idea ever, was ignored, I simply don't believe that. I don't agree with your 2nd part at all. Lots of games out there are created by companies like NCSoft where passion hasn't existed in many years. You can't honestly tell me that the team at VR doesn't love this game, more than the people over at NCSoft who pump out as many games as possible, hoping for a few to stick.
I didn't say every idea presented by PA testers was ignored, but that there are plenty of examples which have been ignored. You just interpreted 'many' as 'all'.
And, yes, I do say that every developer has passion for their project. And I didn't say VR doesn't have passion for it. I'm saying that passion, by itself, doesn't pay the fekking bills. You really are garbage at reading comprehension, jumping to conclusions that were never actually made. Carry on White Knight!
chenzeme said:
Well I am going to continue to contribute and try to influence as much as I can. To me it doesn't matter if I am totally ignored or not. The point for me is that I tried.
Anyone who doesn't try and then complains at the outcome has no sympathy from me.
Prevenge said:Atarius said: Love isn't enough. Ideas are fruitless. The outline was given at the start of the project. Nobody had the idea to deviate, and yet here we are. That's the problem that needs addressing. Companies cannot pivot with random people on a msg board having ideas. You have to literally actually accept an idea and run with it until the end. Pantheon hasn't failed yet? Now that depends on how you define failure. 10 years of work being erased to start over nearly from scratch at day 1 again, that is a failure to deliver in a timely fashion literally anything that can be brought to market. It doesn't avoid being a failure because someone is stubborn enough to say "they're working on it". 30 years from now you could make the same statement, the son of Joppa is going to bring his father's vision to reality! Just you wait! You should just try and help! With any artistic endeavor you need the artist to have a clear vision, changing directions in what seems like a 180 degrees is less vision and more desperation or confusion. THAT is where the transparency needs to be. Joppa or someone needs to convey exactly what it is they're doing and outline exactly how this works, just like the original project did. They don't need feedback until they have a product that needs to be polished or fine tuned. Things they can't foresee like server load or time investment for people that have things going on other than a video game. That's feedback for balancing, not core concept brainstorming. The scope should be known and be progressing, not being hashed out. If you have a proper scope you don't have need or time for distractions from every tom dick and harry who says "what about this?" or "can we throw this in the mix?". No matter how cathartic that may make you feel.Again, though, how do you know what's going on behind the curtains? Everyone is assuming they know exactly what this latest reveals means. That the art style change and new graphics = redoing the entire game from scratch. While I can't bring myself to believe that is even remotely close to true, I also don't actually have any idea. I would love to see them explain in FINE detail what this actually means. I fully agree with that. I do want to know things like. 1. How extensive will the changes be for the landscapes and environmental assets? Are you creating entirely new landscapes or reworking existing ones to fit the new art style? 2. Are character models/mobs/weapons/armor/spell effects being redesigned entirely, or are you able to reuse certain elements from the existing models? Can you provide insight into the level of detail involved in recreating these models? 3. What rough % of total assets are simply a repaint, versus what % of assets are a complete redesign in the new art style? 4. As of the latest PA notes, there is a checkbox for Tree shaders and while I am excited to see that the trees will gain some new life/depth, does this mean that you need to redo textures and shaders for all assets after converting them into the new art style? If VR is willing to answer these questions, please provide as much detail as possible. I think it could really help lower frustration levels for people if they had a much clearer image in their heads of the path forward for Pantheon. The tracker is a good start, the Q&A was a good start, but don't feign transparency, live in it.
Nobody knows what's going on behind the scenes, but the fact that what we do know is at best acceptable to the most optimistic people here with major caveats doesn't bode well. The fact the reaction has been this negative and the silence has been so extreme leads me to speculate the following:
1. They're possibly preparing how they want to approach things to the community. This may be more bad news but at least more detail OR good news.
2. They don't have anything to really outline things further and are wanting this to blow over.
We'll see what happens but the longer it goes I think the harder the sell for whatever is coming. I think they wanted to prep it and it leaked and they won't have anything to roll out for quite some time. As far as suggestions from testers, I think it's important not to forget that they were allowed access to increase revenue gain to a certain extent, and while criticism is great, most people just want confirmation they're doing well. A pat on the back more than a deeply critical eye as it were. Sorta like when Roger Ebert did movie reviews, he would lament when someone wouldn't let them review a movie. It meant they had no confidence in it and that's how I think the community is beginning to feel. They'll show it to people with an NDA but no one else outside the team proper.
Atarius said:
Prevenge said:Atarius said: Love isn't enough. Ideas are fruitless. The outline was given at the start of the project. Nobody had the idea to deviate, and yet here we are. That's the problem that needs addressing. Companies cannot pivot with random people on a msg board having ideas. You have to literally actually accept an idea and run with it until the end. Pantheon hasn't failed yet? Now that depends on how you define failure. 10 years of work being erased to start over nearly from scratch at day 1 again, that is a failure to deliver in a timely fashion literally anything that can be brought to market. It doesn't avoid being a failure because someone is stubborn enough to say "they're working on it". 30 years from now you could make the same statement, the son of Joppa is going to bring his father's vision to reality! Just you wait! You should just try and help! With any artistic endeavor you need the artist to have a clear vision, changing directions in what seems like a 180 degrees is less vision and more desperation or confusion. THAT is where the transparency needs to be. Joppa or someone needs to convey exactly what it is they're doing and outline exactly how this works, just like the original project did. They don't need feedback until they have a product that needs to be polished or fine tuned. Things they can't foresee like server load or time investment for people that have things going on other than a video game. That's feedback for balancing, not core concept brainstorming. The scope should be known and be progressing, not being hashed out. If you have a proper scope you don't have need or time for distractions from every tom dick and harry who says "what about this?" or "can we throw this in the mix?". No matter how cathartic that may make you feel.
Again, though, how do you know what's going on behind the curtains? Everyone is assuming they know exactly what this latest reveals means. That the art style change and new graphics = redoing the entire game from scratch. While I can't bring myself to believe that is even remotely close to true, I also don't actually have any idea. I would love to see them explain in FINE detail what this actually means. I fully agree with that. I do want to know things like. 1. How extensive will the changes be for the landscapes and environmental assets? Are you creating entirely new landscapes or reworking existing ones to fit the new art style? 2. Are character models/mobs/weapons/armor/spell effects being redesigned entirely, or are you able to reuse certain elements from the existing models? Can you provide insight into the level of detail involved in recreating these models? 3. What rough % of total assets are simply a repaint, versus what % of assets are a complete redesign in the new art style? 4. As of the latest PA notes, there is a checkbox for Tree shaders and while I am excited to see that the trees will gain some new life/depth, does this mean that you need to redo textures and shaders for all assets after converting them into the new art style? If VR is willing to answer these questions, please provide as much detail as possible. I think it could really help lower frustration levels for people if they had a much clearer image in their heads of the path forward for Pantheon. The tracker is a good start, the Q&A was a good start, but don't feign transparency, live in it.
Nobody knows what's going on behind the scenes, but the fact that what we do know is at best acceptable to the most optimistic people here with major caveats doesn't bode well. The fact the reaction has been this negative and the silence has been so extreme leads me to speculate the following:
1. They're possibly preparing how they want to approach things to the community. This may be more bad news but at least more detail OR good news.
2. They don't have anything to really outline things further and are wanting this to blow over.
We'll see what happens but the longer it goes I think the harder the sell for whatever is coming. I think they wanted to prep it and it leaked and they won't have anything to roll out for quite some time. As far as suggestions from testers, I think it's important not to forget that they were allowed access to increase revenue gain to a certain extent, and while criticism is great, most people just want confirmation they're doing well. A pat on the back more than a deeply critical eye as it were. Sorta like when Roger Ebert did movie reviews, he would lament when someone wouldn't let them review a movie. It meant they had no confidence in it and that's how I think the community is beginning to feel. They'll show it to people with an NDA but no one else outside the team proper.
