Iksar said:A map with no marker for the player is fine. If my character has been through an area then so have I and if I can't remember things about the places I have been then neither can my character.
If I fuse your neck and put horse blinders on you (so that you can't freely look around to emulate PC controls compared to how perceptive we are as actual humans) while leading you to a location on the other side of the state that has no name, no street signs, and closing off all other senses like hearing, scent, and actual spacial awareness (all thing you can't emulate in a game) I'd bet you that you wouldn't be able to find your way back without a map.
Just because someone's "character has been through an area" doesn't mean they have been there unless they're some kind of fictional digital character. Using a 2 dimensional map is actually more realistic than assuming that everyone memorizes longitude and latitude coordinates or navigates by the stars when exploring unknown territory or going outside of their normal area of operation.
Ranarius said:Sure, I guess my point is that I don't like the fog of war concept for this application of maps :)
I'm under the impression that as you obtain maps from exploration/faction vendors/quests, the fog of war disappears for each corresponding area. Similar to Elden Ring.
Ranarius said:I'm actually not sure what the value in the "fog of war" part of the maps is. If we're given (or earn or buy or whatever), a topographical map that we can mark up, why would we need to be at a specific location to be able to do that? If I meet up with a friend in a tavern and we both pull out our maps should we be able to compare notes? Should I be able to make marks on my map based on the info he shares with me?
Fog of War overlays are designed to make OCD players wander all over to remove it.
Joking aside, I hope FoW doesn't completely black out the map. I would love maps to have all FoW covered areas displayed in sepia and all uncovered areas in vivid color. This allows maps to still function while still encouraging and rewarding exploration. The world will literally become more colorful as we see it. Also, FoW should have fuzzy, imprecise edges which slowly color in otherwise it works as a defacto GPS.
On this subject I was thinking only of the overland map of the continent or zone. I hope no in-game maps of dungeons or anything of detail to the meter. Just a map that you could use if you get lost in the wild and need to find a path or POI. I hope to often get lost in the world and have to seek a safe place to logout each evening.
I think we discussed this topic years ago , I am glad to see it is being considered.
I do hope for either a player "made" maps , fog of war (exploration) and buyable maps are included , if not my original suggestion was a default map function key (for future implementation by staff) or the ability for player designed map packs ie Brewell.
Darch said:If I fuse your neck and put horse blinders on you (so that you can't freely look around to emulate PC controls compared to how perceptive we are as actual humans) while leading you to a location on the other side of the state that has no name, no street signs, and closing off all other senses like hearing, scent, and actual spacial awareness (all thing you can't emulate in a game) I'd bet you that you wouldn't be able to find your way back without a map.
Just because someone's "character has been through an area" doesn't mean they have been there unless they're some kind of fictional digital character. Using a 2 dimensional map is actually more realistic than assuming that everyone memorizes longitude and latitude coordinates or navigates by the stars when exploring unknown territory or going outside of their normal area of operation.
Personally I'd take that bet because for me I could just head west to find the coast then follow that all the way home.
How did people travel for most of human history? I highly doubt they had maps, let alone detailed/accurate ones.
Maphs have existed for quite a while. Go far enough back and very few people did travel. When they did it was to move to a new area not visit something that they knew about. When you have no idea what is ahead of you a map is useless other than making notes in case you unexpectedly have to turn back.
Flossie said: It's a bit disappointing to hear this, but I shouldn't expect much challenge from today's gaming climate.
Especially when everyone wants different kinds of challenges. Now the definition of the word challenge is up for debate AND where challenge should exist is up for debate. Leaves a lot of room ....
Map's have nothing to do with challenge , there is nothing of value added in terms of challenge to justify them not being added.
There is no challenge in /loc , google maps on my second monitor and or map overlays, this is simply a quality of life addition that can be adjusted and controlled in game via the fog , vendor or skill produced maps.
The downfall of not having them being included is a frustrated player , that has a million other mmo options that simply screams at there monitor because there lost and uninstalls.
Iksar said:How did people travel for most of human history? I highly doubt they had maps, let alone detailed/accurate ones.
That is the type of maps I hope we have in the game. The map of the cities can be pretty detailed. The map of the world will hopefully be greatly lacking, more so as you go further and further away from the settlements. The purpose of the map being relation to landmarks not small scale 1-1 locational information.
I hope they take inspiration from maps of the 1500s and things like hiking trail maps. Many/most of the hiking trail maps are wonderful examples of being accurate without being exact.
Fog of war doesn't have to be a visible fog of war for players to slowly etch a sketch off the map. It can be maps without all the details filled in. We could have the basic map of a zone that has roads, bridges, and settlements but the deadly dungeon entrance isn't on the map until you go there. Clear massive landmarks like a waterfall are there, but the small cave just north of the waterfall is not on it yet until you go there and find it.
Xxar said:Map's have nothing to do with challenge , there is nothing of value added in terms of challenge to justify them not being added.
There is no challenge in /loc , google maps on my second monitor and or map overlays, this is simply a quality of life addition that can be adjusted and controlled in game via the fog , vendor or skill produced maps.
The downfall of not having them being included is a frustrated player , that has a million other mmo options that simply screams at there monitor because there lost and uninstalls.
That's exactly my point. You don't view maps as having anything to do with challenge while other people do. I'd ask this...why is not having a map frustrating if there is no challenge related to maps? Is not getting lost a challenge?
I still find it funny that people cannot remember where they have been in a zone. Do you (the generic plural here) really need maps for everywhere you go in real life? I really wonder if this is a generational thing where people who grew up without GPS, without in-car navigation, etc just had to memorize directions, navigating by landmarks, etc whereas later generations lost that skill completely. Maps are a crutch. Learn to remember.
A question, then, for those people who played EQ1: Do you remember your way around whatever starting city you began in? Do you still remember the route from Freeport to HighPass Hold? Or Grobb to Qeynos? Or Kaladim to Kedge?
I really wonder if this is a generational thing where people who grew up without GPS, without in-car navigation, etc just had to memorize directions, navigating by landmarks, etc whereas later generations lost that skill completely.
Funny (ish?) story. My 6th grade son has a friend that lives nearby. I picked him up one day to take him and my son to an event. On the way back rather than just driving him home I asked him the way to his house (I knew the way, but I wanted to see if he knew the way). He didn't know. So I'd ask again each time we got a significant amount closer, and he still didn't know. Within a half of a mile of his house and he still did not know which way to turn to get home. 6th grade.......
I don't know why, it's just a habit for me for some reason (maybe my dad did this when I was a kid too or something), but almost everywhere I take my kids I ask them which way to turn at most intersections. I'll often ask them if they know where we are and/or which direction is home. It's not something I make a big deal of, it's normally just a quick "hey, which way do you think we should turn here?" If they're right we just do it, if they're wrong I just say "nope, it's this way" ... or if I'm in a mood and we have lots of time I'll turn the wrong way until they figure it out haha.
Vandraad said:I still find it funny that people cannot remember where they have been in a zone. Do you (the generic plural here) really need maps for everywhere you go in real life?
Even though I have been there countless times, I still use the map when I go to the mall.
I think VR should run with this, if say you are questing and you happen to find yourself in an Orcish market district, there could be a map on a pole, if you can speak orcish you would be able to find your way to things like the Orcish CBD and vape shope, the Orcish full release massage parlor, and the orcish tattoo shop.
I understand the point you are trying to express , that still is not a challenge IMO .. Intentional frustration is not a challenge , even more so when being realistic the zones will be "mapped" before the game launches.
I did say it's more of a quality of life issue , that I prefer to be handled in game , because it can be used as a skill / control mechanism that adds value ie skills , exploration , cash sink etc.
The pro's far out weigh the negatives no matter how people want to try and justify them IMO , even more so when in reality it will be done with or without Pantheon support.
The reality is why , why not have them ? Is the goal to frustrate a new player or not be realistic ? As if people in RL never mapped a area , it's literally the first thing historically done when exploring a new area.
Xxar invoking QoL to simplify the game is the kind of thing many of us here are wanting to avoid. I wish QoL as a term could not be used for removing player skill systems but we lost that fight. Although popular MMOs agree with Xxar, I am here because I believe the Players thinking and communicating is the goal of the MMO not a problem to be swept away with QoL changes. VR is bringing back pulls to the MMO even though that QoL change has been the standard for decades now.
An example of a QoL that has no player skill check involved at all would be if players are forced to press M to look at a GPS map vs the QoL improvement of glancing at the GPS minimap. Each require no skill from the player of any kind. Players are simply forced to hit M thousands of times to see the exact answer hidden from them. (I am hopeful GPS maps are not on the table given how they worded things)
The way Xxar is using QoL would mean Pantheon should add QoL quest markers, hand holding journal entries for quests, and scrapping the idea of secret faction hits because players can look the answers up online. Looking things up online is not a part of an RPG.
If the maps are minimalistic and have no GPS or /loc I will be happy to have a cool cartography style system filled in through exploration, quests, factions, drops, etc. It has the potential to facilitate or entirely ruin exploration. Given the standard MMO map system I think it's understandable for people to assume the worst until the system is entirely spelled out.
First off , please do not assume anything more then what I posted being my opinion.
This post is about maps , not about QOL , quest markers or some other completely off topic about pulls.
I still stand by my original reply that it does not equate to challenge , if anything it removes in game options for the Pantheon team in the form of real content/mechanics.
This is further compounded by the fact there going to be available on release if you want them or not.
I just prefer them in game in the form of a skill , fog of war or as a merchant plat sink.
Xxar said:There is no challenge in /loc , google maps on my second monitor and or map overlays, this is simply a quality of life addition that can be adjusted and controlled in game via the fog , vendor or skill produced maps.
The downfall of not having them being included is a frustrated player , that has a million other mmo options that simply screams at there monitor because there lost and uninstalls.
If the game mechanic makes cheaters annoyed that is a positive in my book. I don't want to play an MMO where I never have to think. "There are a million other mmo options" for that so I am backing Pantheon hoping for a challenge. A challenge that some day frustrates me enough to ask others for help or even shamefully go online to look up a full map after I have completely given up on my own ability to solve the problem.
Xxar said:This post is about maps , not about QOL , quest markers or some other completely off topic about pulls.
Why would cheaters stop at what VR wants to include in a fog of war system? Won't it still frustrate the cheaters to have to look up quest locations or unrevealed locations on their second monitor?
This is further compounded by the fact there going to be available on release if you want them or not.
I'll never get behind this as an argument. The reason they'll exist outside of the game is because players are meant to share information with each other. If all info that we share might as well just be accessible in game that would be pretty rotton. Players working together and sharing information really is part of the magic. If VR does all the sharing for us than part of the magic is lost.
To keep this specific to maps, if there does end up being some sort of topographical map in game that is filled in as I play the game (whether through fog of war, or cartography, or sharing info with other players, or marking my own map with whatever tools they allow in-game) I'll be glad that it's not just all there pre-filled in for me even though there WILL exist outside the game pre-filled in maps. I won't have to use the in-game system and work on filling in my own maps (since that info will all be available outside the game), but I will most likely choose to do that in game because I avoid "spoilers" for as long as possible.
Ranarius said:I'll never get behind this as an argument. The reason they'll exist outside of the game is because players are meant to share information with each other. If all info that we share might as well just be accessible in game that would be pretty rotton. Players working together and sharing information really is part of the magic. If VR does all the sharing for us than part of the magic is lost.
I don't want to have to have a second monitor with Allakhazam open in a browser window just to be able to find my way through Thronefast. Although I guess today it would be Library of Pantheon (shoutout Baz).
Some people really confuse tedium and inconvenience with difficulty, and draw from that conclusion that any system which reduces the tedium or inconvenience must be negative quality of life that reduces the difficulty of the game.
I don't want to have to leave the game to be able to find out the information that I need to progress. I also don't want the game to be making decisions for me. That is where I draw the line between what is negative in terms of inconvenience and QOL. It doesn't make any difference to me whether a map is included in Pantheon or not, because I will use one of the community created maps when I feel it's necessary to do so. What I would prefer is to be able to use the map while in the game world, because to me having to go to a website or Discord, or spam /ooc to get the answers I need is just as bad as the game telling me where to go and what to do as so many MMOs these days do.
I don't want to have to have a second monitor with Allakhazam open in a browser window just to be able to find my way through Thronefast.
I guess this is where one of my issues with maps lies. I don't understand why you'd want a map to "get to know Thronefast." Doesn't running around, talking to npc's, looking at things, interacting with the area also help you get to know Thronefast? All a map does it lead you through a place so that you don't actually get a chance to to get to know the place. Part of the draw in this kind of game is that players actually get to know their surroundings. You are living in this place, not just passing through it quickly. I would be willing to bet that every player could actually get to know a zone with just a few hours played in that zone, which is such a small percentage of your overall time spent in the world in the long run. Think of another game that you've played a thousand hours in, did you actually need to use a map to get from point A to point B after actually getting to know the zones? I really don't consider getting to know a zone "tedious," I consider it part of the magic of this kind of game.