Mathir said:I think that may be a mistake Kilsin. New School and New Age MMOs suck, that's pretty much the consensus by everyone. WoW copycats and easy solo oriented games are the new normal and NOBODY wants to see more of those. Old School is what everyone wants. Now, you're right that not every aspect of old school MMOs is attractive to all people, but almost nothing is attractive about modern MMOs outside of pretty graphics. I think being known as the "Old School" MMO is net positive for your marketing campaign. Whenever it actually starts that is. People who haven't tried EQ, will want to see what the fuss is about. Challenge seekers will naturally be drawn to the idea that this is a "difficult" MMO. I think the more you embrace the challenge and embrace the EQ1 concepts, the more success you will find. Trying to differentiate yourself from EQ1, you're just going to end up another modern MMO and people won't even give it a try. The only way you probably succeed is word of mouth. The thing that has all of us excited and the haters riled up is that this is finally the spiritual successor to EQ1. You take that away, you try and paint Pantheon as a modern MMO, than nobody is talking about Pantheon. It's just another Elyria or Ashes.
You have to know where your bread is buttered, whether you guys like it or not. Embrace "Old School". What that actually means is EQ1. And what EQ1 means is group centric combat centered around challenge and strategy with high risks and high rewards. And yes, time sinks, and the requirement of severe time investment. You guys run from that thinking it will scare people off. It won't. Sell the game as a game to play for years making incremental progress with your friends. People want to spend a massive amount of time in something fun. Your target audience is anyone in the 25+ age bracket, and none of those people are going to view "Old School" as a negative. The 25 and under crowd will, but outside those that love slower combat and group based challenge, you're never going to reel in the Battle Royale/Action MMO generation. And those would be the ones to object to Old School terminology.
Anyway, reject the "Old School" marketing approach to your own peril. It's why we are all here. No other reason. And it's the primary reason this game even matters to people at this point in time.
Well, to use that perspective mate, there were a ton of crappy games back in the "old days" too! You get the good and bad with everything in life, especially in an industry such as the gaming industry, but just because we are in the modern age and decades ahead of games like EQ, AC etc. doesn't mean we can still use similar core values, systems, mechanics and bring them into the new age.
We want Pantheon to stand out and be thought of as its own IP, not a rehashed nostalgic game, nor do we want Pantheon to be connected to any other game, like EQ, VG, AC, FF etc. we are making Pantheon from scratch to be something that we want to play for years to come, using tried and tested values, system, mechanics and tenets with modern technology, graphics and design even with most of our team has fond memories in other games years gone by.
This isn't a bad thing either but from a marketing perspective, it will be very tough to sell our game with a tag of "old school" stuck to it and that could have serious consequences at launch and later down the track, especially when we will be relying heavily on a subscription model to support the game. We need people to look at us with fresh eyes and as a new standalone IP and that isn't to say we don't remember past games that made us into the gamers and developers that we are today, we just have to move with the times and drop the "old school" tag which is purely symbolic of an era that has long past and move forward with the new.
As Joppa would say "Onward and upward!" :)
Yeah, I'm not sure you understand my point at all Xxar. Let me try again:
1) People would not have funded this game. This game would not exist in its present form at all if it wasn't perceived or originally marketed as "Old School" or the spiritual successor to EQ 1. That's literally the entire draw of Pantheon. That's what makes this game interesting. There are a lot of "Modern" MMOs. Ashes of Creation and Chronicles of Elyria are two on top of the already existing ones (WoW, Elder Scrolls, LOTRO, etc...). Nobody cares about an MMO trying to be modern. We've been dealing with that for 10 years and they all have been crap. We want a return to what made MMOs great. Old School. Classic EQ and Vanilla WoW.
2) The target audience is not your only audience, but it is the most important. We, the EQ1 target audience/personalities, are the ones that will keep the lights on while the team tries to bring in other players. They recognize this, that's why they are making the game they are. We're all on the same page there. This debate is about using "Old School" as a selling point. I think it's a great selling point and brings prestiege and uniqueness to the title, Kilsin was suggesting the team thinks it turns potential customers off. Zero doubt they are 100% wrong on that. It's the thing that makes Pantheon mysterious, special, and unique. They just need to frame it in an exciting and positive light. But no matter what, being "Old School" is what makes Pantheon stand out. And whether they like it or not, slower, more strategic group based combat will always be referred to as Old School. Especially as long as its the opposite of what modern games are giving us.
3) The vast majority of us pledged and are here because of "The Vision", Brad's vision. The same one he used to create EQ1, and the same one he talks about to this day. VR can hopefully add and enhance that vision to make Pantheon a great game, but going for its own unique vision is a guaranteed mistake, and I don't think that's what they are doing at all anyway. We're here and we pledged because this game has been billed as "Old School" and a throwback to EQ1, complete with sounds and concepts. I'm just saying I think they should embrace that concept and market the hell out of it. Even stamp Old School on the box (so to speak). I'm curious what market research has been done to make them think being associated as an Old School game is a negative. I think running away from that ideal is just shooting yourself in the foot. It's literally the only thing that makes Pantheon stand out from the pack at this point.
Kilsin said:Well, to use that perspective mate, there were a ton of crappy games back in the "old days" too! You get the good and bad with everything in life, especially in an industry such as the gaming industry, but just because we are in the modern age and decades ahead of games like EQ, AC etc. doesn't mean we can still use similar core values, systems, mechanics and bring them into the new age.
We want Pantheon to stand out and be thought of as its own IP, not a rehashed nostalgic game, nor do we want Pantheon to be connected to any other game, like EQ, VG, AC, FF etc. we are making Pantheon from scratch to be something that we want to play for years to come, using tried and tested values, system, mechanics and tenets with modern technology, graphics and design even with most of our team has fond memories in other games years gone by.
This isn't a bad thing either but from a marketing perspective, it will be very tough to sell our game with a tag of "old school" stuck to it and that could have serious consequences at launch and later down the track, especially when we will be relying heavily on a subscription model to support the game. We need people to look at us with fresh eyes and as a new standalone IP and that isn't to say we don't remember past games that made us into the gamers and developers that we are today, we just have to move with the times and drop the "old school" tag which is purely symbolic of an era that has long past and move forward with the new.
As Joppa would say "Onward and upward!" :)
I definitely get where you are coming from Kilsin, and I can absolutely respect your opinion and view on this. And hey, it's your company and you guys get to make the decision. I hope it works out to maximize sales. To me, self-identifying as Old School is a positive thing that makes you stand out from the crowd. It makes you unique in a market where everyone is clammoring for a throwback MMO to better times. It kind of sells itself. Personally, I'd embrace it as the key aspect to why I'm different from all the other MMOs available, and really just focus on selling the awesome aspects of what being an Old School MMO actually means.
I understand the standalone IP though, nobody wants a lawsuit of any type for infringement. And in a way its all semantics anyhow, this is the throwback Old School game we all want, and we definitely look forward to and appreciate the new bells and whistiles you guys are adding to it. I would like to play for a good decade, just this game, nothing else, so hoping you guys make all the right decisions to make that a reality.
There are valid points from both sides.
On one side you have the people that are here because of nostalgia and the hope for a game that will resurrect some of the core principals of older MMO's.
On the other you have the want from a business side to market to a wide audience of gamers.
To me it seems that many of the people from the first side are already here, and the ones missing are the people that just don't know that Pantheon is being developed.
Maybe instead of "old school" you could market the game as a "modern spiritual successor" and mention some of the VR staff associated with titles of nostalgia, but alas I am no expert in these matters.
Great posts from everyone..
You should not stamp Old School on the box, because an old school game also means less pretty, less developed a more primitive game. And even if it attracks the older people to pledge it does not attrackt the younger people to actually be interested in the game.
Even I got here because it is marked as old school I do hope it will be a new game with only the good things of EQ1 (and other old school games) and without the bad.
dmorals said:"spiritual successor"
Brilliant!
I agree with Kilsin that *making* an old school game is core to the enterprise but *marketing* it as an old school game may be a negative.
Mathir used the term "spiritual successor" earlier in this thread, and later so did dmorals.
I like that phrase too.
Granted, we are unlikely to get a large percentage of younger gamers, and as a player I frankly prefer it that way. This won't be a game they can play on their ubiquitous mobile devices and it won't be a game they can do very well in playing for half an hour every now and then along with the 50 other games they dabble in. Which may be an inaccurate oversimplification but there is *some* truth to it.
But there are a *lot* of them and even a small percentage can help the bottom line.
By the way - most of us are old EQ players but by no means all of us - and other older MMOs had their own strong points and were better than EQ at some things though worse in others.
Rather than "spiritual successor to Everquest" I prefer a phrase borrowed in part from a phrase often used in the science fiction community, at least many years ago. How about something along the lines of:
"The spiritual successor to the classic games from the golden age of gaming such as Everquest, Ultima Online, Dark Ages of Camelot, Asherons Call and the like".
Classic has an appeal these days - look at WoW. EQ should come first in any list. But adding others makes clear that we have a broader scope and aren't just remaking EQ with a few changes to avoid copyright claims.
Kilsin said:Honestly, we are trying to move away from the title "Old School", it has stuck to Pantheon but nothing about Pantheon is "Old" we are bringing Pantheon into the modern digital age and using technology that wasn't even around back in the "Old School" days and by associating Pantheon with "Old School" it can turn a lot of people away from our game before they even lay eyes on it properly as they associate it with dull graphics, bad mechanics or being something else entirely that they picture from a game that may have given them a bad experience.
So the further we can distance ourselves from the words "Old School" the better :)
That is sort of what I was trying to get at with the post and I feel like it was kind of lost. To me "Old school" is kind of a negative term to a lot of gamers. That was also why I went back and added in the edit at the bottom because they were literally just saying this in the most recent stream I saw from early december. This is a fully MODERN game, just with an "old school" play style is fair to say? I.e no instances, no factions, support classes. Basically things that make the game more immersive. I feel a lot of MMOs of today have lost that feeling of immersion and its that "old school" play style that helps capture that feeling.
off the top of my head, "Old School" means:
- social and group dependency, first and foremost.
- player driven economy (no auction houses)
- no instant gratification rewards (achievements unlocked for walking ten feet). In modern MMO's we are bombarded with accomplishments/rewards. Old school accomplishments were actually challenging and truly gave you a sense of reward. That's why you would occasionally see "DING!!!" yelled across the zone.
- item/gear significance (whether it be through combat or a steep price tag, gear was recognizable and was rarely made obsolete).
- Traveling was challenging and most times took a little planning beforehand. (mobs, factions, death and binding, vendors, banks). It was rarely instant unless one used the services of a wiz or druid. This also made the world feel immense, which it was. No minimaps
- No potions.
- death sucked
Yeah labels may be unnecessary. I think it's more correct to say Pantheon is inspired from old school, though it is totally using new technology and many new concepts as well. A successor; 'spiritual successor' seems to be the most fitting imo. I know the inspiration is what brought me here (and Brad).
Qulash said:Great posts from everyone..
You should not stamp Old School on the box, because an old school game also means less pretty, less developed a more primitive game. And even if it attracks the older people to pledge it does not attrackt the younger people to actually be interested in the game.
Even I got here because it is marked as old school I do hope it will be a new game with only the good things of EQ1 (and other old school games) and without the bad.
I think this is probably where I'm left a little confused. I have no idea why you would think "Old School" would mean less pretty, less developed, or a more primitive game. Yes, I understand the word "Old" is used in the moniker, but to me it's a self identifying term of endearment. None of the things you mentioned are what I think of when I hear that word. I believe Kilsin shares your view on what Old School might be interpreted by the masses, I just disagree with that view.
I think the vast majority of people will view "Old School" as a positive adjective. It should mean group based, slower more strategic game play, signficiant challenge, extreme risk v reward, and sand box world. At no point in time does it have anything to do with graphics quality, or being a half-assed developed game. I have no clue why you might think it would. But on every MMO sub-reddit, gaming forum, or blog site, whether it is Classic WoW being developed, or requests for Progression servers on Rift, EQ1, and EQ2, or emulators, EVERYONE, EVERYWHERE is asking for a return to the old school MMO. It's a positive thing, and it would be a great marketing approach to tell all those people that this is THE Old School game you're all asking for. At that point, they could also explain the modern bells and whistles they've added in. But make no mistake, being "Old School" is the only reason Pantheon still exists. It is the only Pantheon difference that truly matters. I worry that running away from that is going to be a huge net negative on their future marketing campaign.
Mathir said:At no point in time does it have anything to do with ...being a half-assed developed game.
I might be projecting a bit here, but I wonder if people are thinking of "less developed" as "less designed." I've certainly observed an industry trend over the last decade away from what I call "systemic design" towards what I'll call "experience design" for lack of a better term. In other words, rather than designing systems that support emergent - sometimes unforeseen - gameplay experiences a designer sets out to craft a specific experience and puts the player on rails to achieve it. This contributes to the "theme park" feeling that a lot of people complain about in modern games. Designers these days are trained to think this is their job, so it's possible that some might see its absence as "half-assed." I think it's the exact opposite.
Shai said:I might be projecting a bit here, but I wonder if people are thinking of "less developed" as "less designed." I've certainly observed an industry trend over the last decade away from what I call "systemic design" towards what I'll call "experience design" for lack of a better term. In other words, rather than designing systems that support emergent - sometimes unforeseen - gameplay experiences a designer sets out to craft a specific experience and puts the player on rails to achieve it. This contributes to the "themepark" feeling that a lot of people complain about in modern games. Designers these days are trained to think this is their job, so it's possible that some might see this philosophy as "half-assed," but I think it's exactly the opposite.
I actually prefer a more linear game when it comes to single player games as I feel to much choice dilutes the story and experience. But by making a MMO on rails and linear you take people on a one way track to the end game making everything on the way pointless in the end. This is bad design if you want create a world that feels lived in, you need to give it room for each zone to evolve and shape itself into more then just that zone I went to get level 20-25. I also think a story focused on you the player in MMO's is a bad idea you become the "HERO" which just a fancy way to say the NPC's b*tch. In MMO's I would actually prefer to be given no information, so I can go out and find my own story that has been skillfully hidden away behind endless danger.
I see this as somewhat sobering.
Of course for the first few months I will say it has that "old school feel" and squee with glee while haughtily admonishing the tennants of NBG. And while the world is new, that will last.
But that the same time from reading this thread- I realize I need to shut-up about all that while I am in game because being a conscientious/responsible member of a niche community, I need to refrain from pushing that "old school" bias onto this new game lest anyone hear it and be unduly influenced. I can feel it inside, maybe find other like minded folks *ahem*. But everyone will be new, hiding behind their screens at least for the first few months and theoretically, everyone on the other side of the screen will be never completely known in an RL sense and therefore always "new".
Mathir said:Kilsin said:Well, to use that perspective mate, there were a ton of crappy games back in the "old days" too! You get the good and bad with everything in life, especially in an industry such as the gaming industry, but just because we are in the modern age and decades ahead of games like EQ, AC etc. doesn't mean we can still use similar core values, systems, mechanics and bring them into the new age.
We want Pantheon to stand out and be thought of as its own IP, not a rehashed nostalgic game, nor do we want Pantheon to be connected to any other game, like EQ, VG, AC, FF etc. we are making Pantheon from scratch to be something that we want to play for years to come, using tried and tested values, system, mechanics and tenets with modern technology, graphics and design even with most of our team has fond memories in other games years gone by.
This isn't a bad thing either but from a marketing perspective, it will be very tough to sell our game with a tag of "old school" stuck to it and that could have serious consequences at launch and later down the track, especially when we will be relying heavily on a subscription model to support the game. We need people to look at us with fresh eyes and as a new standalone IP and that isn't to say we don't remember past games that made us into the gamers and developers that we are today, we just have to move with the times and drop the "old school" tag which is purely symbolic of an era that has long past and move forward with the new.
As Joppa would say "Onward and upward!" :)
I definitely get where you are coming from Kilsin, and I can absolutely respect your opinion and view on this. And hey, it's your company and you guys get to make the decision. I hope it works out to maximize sales. To me, self-identifying as Old School is a positive thing that makes you stand out from the crowd. It makes you unique in a market where everyone is clammoring for a throwback MMO to better times. It kind of sells itself. Personally, I'd embrace it as the key aspect to why I'm different from all the other MMOs available, and really just focus on selling the awesome aspects of what being an Old School MMO actually means.
I understand the standalone IP though, nobody wants a lawsuit of any type for infringement. And in a way its all semantics anyhow, this is the throwback Old School game we all want, and we definitely look forward to and appreciate the new bells and whistiles you guys are adding to it. I would like to play for a good decade, just this game, nothing else, so hoping you guys make all the right decisions to make that a reality.
Exactly man and you guys can still call yourselves old school gamers and wear that badge with pride, I know I do! But for marketing and Pantheons' success, we want to drop that phrase so it doesn't negatively impact us going forward (even though we are secretly still "old school minded", but shh, just don't tell anyone) ;)
As long as a snake can kick me for 8 points of damage and send me to the "Loading... Please Wait." message I will be satisfied.
All kidding aside, lables "old school" and "hard core" really mean different things. To me, it simply means EQ. To my 20 year old who plays MMO - it is AION. I just roll my eyes.
While I do want all those qualities from EQ back in the day - I am not sure I can play the 40 hours a week like I used to. My wife would kill me. And while I have delusions of euphoria being able to be "number one" again I simply know my job won't allow it. I will still sub. I will still play. I am old school at heart but no longer a hard core player. It is like retiring from the military. You could probably pass the PT test but you need to be in the old man group. Busting out 100 push up, 100 situps, and running a mile and half in 8 minutes at age 46 just ain't gonna happen.
But we can dream.
Algrinon said:While I do want all those qualities from EQ back in the day - I am not sure I can play the 40 hours a week like I used to. My wife would kill me. And while I have delusions of euphoria being able to be "number one" again I simply know my job won't allow it. I will still sub. I will still play. I am old school at heart but no longer a hard core player. It is like retiring from the military. You could probably pass the PT test but you need to be in the old man group. Busting out 100 push up, 100 situps, and running a mile and half in 8 minutes at age 46 just ain't gonna happen.
I laughed and then sighed at how true this is for me and possibly quite a few of us.
I tend to focus on other things when considering what distinguishes the best older MMOs from more current ones - but SoWplz has a definite point.
But a main focus of this thread isn't what the difference is it is what the best marketing approach to exploit the difference is.
"Play Pantheon - Return to the Classic Days when your Character was Nobody and meant Nothing."
Hmnnnn - I'm not sure if that will really work all that well.
